87 DX Sedan Project Log

[ShiRen]

Yeah, you should be able to hear it if it doesn't have a bigger leak somewhere else.

I did take the oil cap off while it's running, no oil mist, light pulses of air. Same with the black box on back it's vta and unfiltered (probably bad) but if oil was coming out of it the cross member would be getting showered, everything is bone dry behind the engine.

My head isn't super dirty either, I just don't like the stupid angle the plugs are at. Though, I'm just getting myself worked up, the time that I started to crossthread one it was nearly dark outside.

[ShiRen]

Got a used oil analysis and the results arent too bad. Due to the metals and silicon I'm going to put a filter on the pcv black box... its unfiltered vta right now. Some metals were expected though. Next oil change I am going to use Mobil 1 5w50, Rotella T6 is too expensive now anyway.
Still haven't done the compression and leakdown test, I'll get the numbers during the oil change.

What it does show is no blowby (insolubles) despite the ring wear (chromium), no gas from rich conditions, no water from not getting up to temp because it runs very cool, and the oil is still good. I hope the mobil performs well too, but I liked Rotella due to the copious additive package.

[ShiRen]

Emailed fastbrakes about a big brake kit today, I'm going to make that a priority. Car stops ok, but even in regular traffic I'm gonna put my foot through the firewall one of these days, do a hard stop and you're pressing really damn hard and wondering if you're actually going to stop in time, it of course does easily, but I don't like that feeling. I think a big portion of it is firewall flex too, probably why it is so hard to lock the brakes, the force I'm putting in isnt actually going into the pedal, but during my autocross runs I did find that limit after applying a ridiculous amount of force.

[ShiRen]

Leakdown test results:
Cylinder 1 - about 5psi at 60psi
Cylinder 2 - very little, kept wanting to roll the engine over and open the valves
Cylinder 3 - same as cylinder 2
Cylinder 4 - same again
Not happy with these readings, but I expect cylinder 1 is the worst anyway, and its not that bad.

Compression test
Cylinder 1 - 170psi
Cylinder 2 - 163psi
Cylinder 3 - 165psi
Cylinder 4 - 170psi
Nothing to be concerned about there

Surprising really, engine is nearing 200k mi, has a slight amount of scoring on at least one of the cylinders, and has metal from the rings in the oil. It is smoking on startup now that its cold, but since it doesnt need any oil added between changes its probably no more than a few drops making the smoke. Putting mobil1 5w-50 in it, hope that helps. Nothing concerning, I just don't like breathing it. Valve seals probably need changed, but I don't want to.

[Oldblueaccord]

Leakdown test results:
Cylinder 1 - about 5psi at 60psi
Cylinder 2 - very little, kept wanting to roll the engine over and open the valves
Cylinder 3 - same as cylinder 2
Cylinder 4 - same again
Not happy with these readings, but I expect cylinder 1 is the worst anyway, and its not that bad.

Compression test
Cylinder 1 - 170psi
Cylinder 2 - 163psi
Cylinder 3 - 165psi
Cylinder 4 - 170psi
Nothing to be concerned about there

Surprising really, engine is nearing 200k mi, has a slight amount of scoring on at least one of the cylinders, and has metal from the rings in the oil. It is smoking on startup now that its cold, but since it doesnt need any oil added between changes its probably no more than a few drops making the smoke. Putting 5w-50 in it, hope that helps. Nothing concerning, I just don't like breathing it. Valve seals probably need changed, but I don't want to.

Need that dino oil in there buddy!

[ShiRen]

Eh, it's really a myth that conventional oil leaks less, molecule sizes are both bigger and smaller, so as much will get through as synthetic, viscosity will have a bigger difference. And nothing will rejuvenate seals that are worn out from moving parts... It does burn better though, that's why you don't put synthetic in a rotary
I've run it pretty hard today and it hasn't smoked on me yet, so we will see what it does in the morning.
I wish it was still summer, I'd love to know if oil temps dropped

[Oldblueaccord]

Emailed fastbrakes about a big brake kit today, I'm going to make that a priority. Car stops ok, but even in regular traffic I'm gonna put my foot through the firewall one of these days, do a hard stop and you're pressing really damn hard and wondering if you're actually going to stop in time, it of course does easily, but I don't like that feeling. I think a big portion of it is firewall flex too, probably why it is so hard to lock the brakes, the force I'm putting in isnt actually going into the pedal, but during my autocross runs I did find that limit after applying a ridiculous amount of force.

Do what Brian says but I would change out your master cylinder...I think its larger bore less pedal travel but double check me on that. There are formulas to get it right.

it might also be pad knock back where the pads on disc brakes push out? in on the caliper bores and then the first application you get alot of pedal travel. ABS fixed that all up but older models it was pretty common.

[ShiRen]

I have a wilwood master cylinder. It's still a 7/8" bore, but that's not uncommon, even with manual brakes. A smaller bore creates more pressure at the same amount of force, but I think travel increases because the amount of fluid that needs to be moved doesn't change.

Not sure if the travel is excessive, there is just not a lot of pressure, even though the little brakes are ample to stop the car. I think I'd have to put my foot through the floor to lock them up. Bigger brakes should be more touchy and easier to threshold brake as long as they aren't too touchy. I've only ever barely locked the front brakes once, that was in autocross and I was worried about breaking my new seats lol, the recliners can't stand that kind of pressure.

Working on making a master cylinder brace, but it didn't seem to move a ton. I'd like to take that out of the equation though.

I think the next easiest thing is to drill a few more holes in the brake pedal to change the ratio a bit, I think I can get away with a little bit of angle on the pedal rod.

[Oldblueaccord]

guessing a little but I think the LXi stock is 13/16" and some of the Hondas are 1.0"

EDIT: how about 15/16" I flunked 2 nd grade math a few times.

[Oldblueaccord]

http://www.markwilliams.com/calculators.html

This should work for you....

[ShiRen]

You can see with that calculator you have to press a lot harder with a larger bore. Worst case scenario I go to a 3/4" bore, that will help with the unassisted brakes. Pedal ratio first though, it's doing essentially the same thing trading travel for force.

Well before that, new calipers, won't know how anything will feel until those are on. I did pull the trigger on a set of wilwood 4 pots btw

Really wanting a new rear swaybar, extended ball joints, and to call Fortune auto for some coilovers, but I don't think my wallet would like that after spending $800 on brakes.

[ShiRen]

Big brake kit done. It's the fastbrakes 88-00 civic 4 piston wilwood 11" kit. https://www.fastbrakes.com/product_p...ivic-11-4e.htm This kit is specifically for 9.5" cars, that's why I didn't get the significantly cheaper 11" Integra option for the accord.



There were a few problems, though none really relating to the fitment of the brakes. All that was needed was a 4-5mm spacer, I just used 4 washers that were like 4.5mm thick. The problems I had was one brake line that came with the kit had a malformed thread and would not tighten, also I was shorted a caliper bolt. It's fine, that stuff happens, new parts shipped on Friday and I got them Monday. I had another small problem though, the 30mm offset wheels that I had on the front hit the calipers, so I had to get the track wheels out until I could swap the 35mm offset wheels from the back to the front lol, they had enough clearance. I'll have to use a small spacer if I ever need to swap the wheels front to back now I guess.

Also tip, when you bleed brakes from totally empty, work on getting a little bit of fluid to the calipers then pump the crap out of the pedal until it starts to get hard. Make sure you lift all the way off the pedal. Press it down as hard as you can and crack the first bleeder, pump it up again and crack the next, and until the brakes start feeling normal repeat this, then start doing it like normal where you would bleed one wheel at a time until the air is gone. Your fluid will go down as you pump it too, so watch it.

[ShiRen]

Oh yeah... It stops good now. I still feel like I'd have to stomp the life out of the pedal to get every bit of force out of it though. Master cylinder brace and pedal ratio first, then pads, worst case scenario I go to a 3/4" master cylinder.

Also, some relevant part numbers: this kit uses a 120-13839 caliper which takes a 7112 type pad, the rotor is a from an 09 Mini Cooper base model, centric part number 121.34100. Alternatively, Brembo has a drilled rotor 09A7611X

[conozo]

wow, definitely makes me want to upgrade mine. If i dont drive like a grandma i get warped rotors easily. With that said my brakes stop the car quick. I have locked up all 4 on the highway before with LXI fronts with SEI rears and prop valve.

Not sure why you feel you have to stomp on yours so much.

Are your wheels 15" or 16"?

[ShiRen]

Manual brakes make a big difference in that regard lol. Mine should be hard to press, but I want more brake before I'm flexing the seat. And after further investigation, the pads my brakes were shipped with aren't performance oriented whatsoever, they're wilwood bp-10, I'll probably install hawk dtc-60s. Strange your rotors warp though.

My daily wheels are 16, race wheels are 15

[ShiRen]

About a month ago my brand new brake caliper lost a mounting bolt and hit the wheel, putting a big scar in the caliper, wheel, and broke my valve stem. Everything is alright, its mostly cosmetic, but lesson learned use more loctite, I was running out when I put it together. That day I finished the paperwork to get an abandoned title for a 07 Ford Sport Trac with 113k mi, v8, 4wd, it is a hell of a little truck and I have been driving the crap out of it and hauling dirt bikes, haven't driven the accord a lot since. Part of that is ptsd lol, but the truck is just a bit easier to hop in and go, especially in the cold. I don't really like that, makes me feel complacent, and its part of why I sold the type R. Its fine if I am using the truck though, but Ill probably get tired to the abysmal gas milage pretty soon too lol. I'll probably throw some more parts at the accord soon to get it ready for autocross in a couple months, its definitely nice having another vehicle for that.

[ShiRen]

So my ford is having problems, but the Accord has nothing but reliable. That being said, I can't stop thinking about modifying it. I have the adjustable rear lower control arms to install, the front upper control arm camber mounts, and I want to raise the driver front a bit in an attempt to corner balance and correct the control arm lengths side to side to get a better alignment. Also still thinking about building an engine. I will eventually, as I've outlined it all here, but money is tight since I went back to college. I need someone who knows a little bit about what to do welding and porting a 3 valve head, that is the biggest show stopper. I'd also love to find some 5.5mm diameter stem exhaust valves to maybe bump up in size, or at least improve flow around the stem. What I'd love to get going sooner is my megajolt, but I really want to get my bike carbs put on. I am planning on getting a 3d printed manifold and 3d printed velocity stacks.

I've been doing some math to determine how long the intake needs to be, valve to the tip of the stack. I've seen some dyno sheets of A20s and they all make a really flat torque line, usually dips off around 6000, so I was thinking the tuned rpm of the intake should be between 14"-16.5". There is some complex math, but I don't think its rocket science, if that is an achievable length that's great. I didn't tune the formulas directly for my engine, yet, but I will share them. It has something to do with the valve timing and when the reflective inlet pulse comes back down the runner into the valve, so wherever flow starts to drop since the piston will be decreasing in acceleration in the latter half of the stroke, they say it is usually somewhere between 80-90 degrees. So the rough calculation is Length in Inches=84000/tuned rpm, but the better, probably not the best, calculation is L = D * C / 0.012 * N where L is the length in mm, D is the degrees of the crank, C is the speed of sound or roughly 334m/s, and N is your tuned rpm. I have no idea where 84000 or 0.012 come from, but the math agrees both ways. Even getting this slightly wrong is fine since you will still get the benefit from the resonate pulse, it just won't be at the point of lowest intake flow, plus just adding velocity stacks will improve laminar flow. The 84000/rpm equation got me 14" and the big equation got me 16.5" at 90 degrees, so I will probably design my stacks with a minimum of 14" in length and add a spacer between the carb and stacks to tune the length, also if my tuned rpm needs to be lower, like 5000rpm, then all that means is I need a longer runner, so it works out perfectly.

Eyes glazed over yet? I like to work this out and write about it, so at least I will remember what I wanted to do lol. Wish I could design my intake now, but I have actual homework that​ needs done.

[ShiRen]

Been thinking a lot about suspension geometry. So lowering the car obviously screws some stuff up. The alignment is impossible, especially with the weight bias. There is almost no way to get good camber on any remotely stock setup. The upper control arm angle is a bit too much, stressing the ball joint and also with the uca rotating along a different axis, it also changes caster. And of course the roll centers are pretty wacky.

I don't think a lot can be done to the rear, especially due to how the lcas mount through the knuckle, but this joint has been known for being extremely loose, so it would be nice to figure out something to improve it. I do have some ideas for the front though which I'd like to share.

Knuckles: it's fairly likely that knuckles from another car will bolt up. I think the only thing that would not allow it is the kingpin inclination, that might get hairy, but it could also offer improved scrub radius... This is probably going to have to involve some cad models... Anyway I am hoping that there is some shorter knuckles to see what happens when the uca is lowered back down. I'm curious if the tie rods could possibly be be moved down to improve their angle. I also want to find knuckles that have an increased distance from the ball joint to the spindle, however that can also be helped by the next item.

Extended ball joints: this is probably the easiest part, but they're 3x the price of a normal ball joint. They would of course change the roll center as intended, but they also shorten the lever arm of said roll center because the angles between the upper and lower control arms are more extreme. Nobody seems to really be bothered by this when doing the modifications to a civic, but with the civic being smaller, I don't think they have the option. Anyway, drop knuckles are a better option to extended ball joints, so at least extended ball joints plus shorter knuckles are pretty much exactly that.

4th gen lower control arms: this is pretty simple actually. They're longer by an inch. Otherwise exactly the same. If more camber is needed up front, at least without being at the absolute maximum you can get, these will surely fix the issue. They will also increase front track width, which is a nice benefit. The biggest limiting factor are the axles, however anyone doing a b series trans swap can be a bit flexible here.

The rear: We need to find a good solution here. Ideally, it'd be great to come up with a solution that fixes the sloppy lca mount in the knuckle AND lowers the lca mount by around an inch or two.

[ShiRen]

Regarding the loose rear LCAs, where the bolt goes through the knuckle... I wonder what would happen if one were to thread the hole and insert two large studs? Something might need to be done with the LCA bushings, probably reemed. Might be easier than sleeving the hole.

Small update: While I haven't felt like working on or racing my car this year, I did just buy a new 3d printer. This one will allow me to make a new intake for my bike carbs Honestly that will probably be the biggest motivator to do anything else with it. The power gain and also the sound will be game changing.