Can we talk about bump steer?

[ShiRen]

My car is about to undergo a lot of suspension changes, but one thing I won't be addressing is the horrific bump steer this car seems to have. I drive to work on an old worn out road and my shocks are blown and I have no power steering, all the bouncing moves the steering wheel all over the place. It might be a little overblown, but I expect it to get worse when the car is lowered, like most other Hondas. I want to find a way to fix this.

This might sound crazy, but I think with 92-00 Civic / 94-01 Integra inner tie rods we have a lot more tie rod end options. Our stock tie rods on both ends are M12x1.25 and I think most other cars are an M14 thread. I am trying to double check this, but I think 92-00 Civic / 94-01 Integra inner tie rods are M12x1.25 inner and M14 outer. I have no idea what the lengths are though, I might have to make a Rockauto order of cheap rack parts. The other car's racks are narrower by about 8" or something, the inner tie rods look a little shorter, and the outer tie rods are a lot longer.

There is something else that really piques my interest here. If anything, I think putting these tie rods on our racks might make them a little too wide. The tie rod ends can be cut down if the threads are deep enough and that will get them a few more threads narrower, any more and the Ackerman angle will probably have to be changed on the knuckles, or much shorter rod ends can be used from an S2000 or EP3. I did hear on this forum somewhere that a 3rd gen Civic manual steering rack might fit these cars. They have the same mount, same threads, but they are a tad narrower, like 2" if my information is correct. They are probably a little hard to find, but Rockauto does still sell them, and they will probably leak less than our power racks from the same refurbishers.

All that out of the way, I think pillowball bushing tie rod ends that flip the side of the knuckle they sit on would fix the bump steer, or put it back in the normal range of toe change. If anybody has some misc parts laying around, some measurements will be a big help. As a side note, I am going to check up on the fitment of 92-00 Civic / 94-01 Integra lower ball joints too. They mount inversely iirc, but they will be able to correct the roll center on coilover setups.

[Oldblueaccord]

I dont have any bump steer.

I think you need to refresh your suspension get back to base line and then make a decision.

[ShiRen]

That I do, but nothing is worn out in the suspension to make a toe change, its just travel. Do you still have your power steering? I couldn't feel the bump steer at all with the power steering on. I would really like to check it, but I don't think I have a dial gauge with a long enough arm to reach from the lower control arm to the disk brake.

I still think this is worth looking into, especially if it would work with a 3g Civic rack.

[Oldblueaccord]

I have stock power steering.

Whats your ride height from the ground to the middle of the hub to the fender lip? you car looks really tall in your pictures?

If your height is up then the tie rod angle is going to be off just same as going lower. Just like a lifting a truck once you modify one thing it effects others things as well.

[ShiRen]

My car is just as tall as my parts car (was), tie rod angle is about perp with the ground. Since the tie rod bolts through the top toe is going to get more drastic the lower you go, extension travel in the suspension affects the rod angle less drastically.

[ShiRen]

I have made some interesting discoveries: 92-00 Civic / 94-01 Integra inner and outer tie rods are a perfect fit and 92-00 Civic / 94-01 Integra are exactly the same ball joint.



As expected, both sets are an M12 rack end and an M10 thread and taper rod end. There are some differences that I knew about: the inner tie rod length and thickness, its an M14 on the side the rod end screws on, and the Civic rod ends curve to clear the suspension I guess. What I didn't know is the joint on the inner tie rod moved outward. This will actually worsen bump steer, but probably only slightly, as it will increase the tie rod angle due to being closer to the knuckle. It does look sturdier though, the Accord inner tie rod is very thin due to the side it pivots. Both tie rods have an adjustment of about 1 1/8", min and max over all lengths are 12 7/8" and 13 3/4" for the Accord, 13 1/4" and 14 1/8" for the Civic. With the parts I picked out the Civic rod ends did not reach the end of the thread on the inner before bottoming out inside the rod end, but the Accord's did, but the Accord's inner came with a full size jam nut vs the Civic's half nut.





The ball joints are exactly the same. OAL was spot on with a little bit of eyeballing, diameter was .12mm (.005") smaller on the Accord ball joints, the snap ring seat was 17.92mm on the Civic and 17.64mm on the Accord from the press in seat, a difference of .28mm (.011"), but the Civic's snap ring groove was 2mm to the Accords 2.45mm. As far as I can tell the Civic's ball joints are made to a higher tolerance and were merely an upgrade from previous versions used in recent iterations of their double wishbone front suspension, but parts manufactures continued making both.

Soon I would like to get a 3g Civic manual steering rack and see if it all goes together. The problem is the racks are over $100 and I will have to pay a return fee if I get it from Rockauto or Ebay. When I am ready to put it into my car I will get Hardrace versions of these parts.

Edit: I am now seeing Hardrace carries parts for the 4th gen Accord... RCA ball joints, front lca's, sway bar end links, rear UCA's. I think the control arms are longer than ours, but the ball joints come back as the same civic ball joints that I got on Rockauto.

[Oldblueaccord]

You sure your not talking about torque steer. Like the steering wheel is pulling out of your hands on take off. THAT is a problem on these cars with unequal length driveshafts. Honda missed the boat on that deal.

[stat1K]

I'm not sure what you mean by 92-00/94-01 integras are the exact same ball joint, you go on to show that the ball joint for the accord is different. Are you saying that the integra and civic ball joint are the same? because that isn't a discovery at all, that is just plain ol known information as they literally use all of the same suspension.

Additionally, how are you taking these measurements? I wouldn't trust anything less than a caliper.

As for the questions of bump steer. I never had much of an issue with this in any honda unless the tie-rods were completely shot. That being said, i don't see a reason to start swapping parts from the other cars unless it's just hard to find these parts for the accord? I haven't been digging for these parts in some time so i'm not sure about the availability. Is that the ultimate reason for this? Why not just replace the worn out parts with the parts for the 3g and forget about it for another 5-10 years of driving?

[ShiRen]

You sure your not talking about torque steer. Like the steering wheel is pulling out of your hands on take off. THAT is a problem on these cars with unequal length driveshafts. Honda missed the boat on that deal.

It does do that, but only out of a launch.

I'm not sure what you mean by 92-00/94-01 integras are the exact same ball joint, you go on to show that the ball joint for the accord is different. Are you saying that the integra and civic ball joint are the same? because that isn't a discovery at all, that is just plain ol known information as they literally use all of the same suspension.

Additionally, how are you taking these measurements? I wouldn't trust anything less than a caliper.

As for the questions of bump steer. I never had much of an issue with this in any honda unless the tie-rods were completely shot. That being said, i don't see a reason to start swapping parts from the other cars unless it's just hard to find these parts for the accord? I haven't been digging for these parts in some time so i'm not sure about the availability. Is that the ultimate reason for this? Why not just replace the worn out parts with the parts for the 3g and forget about it for another 5-10 years of driving?

I am taking measurements with a caliper. Obviously there are some cosmetic differences in the Civic/integra and Accord ball joints, but spec wise they are the same part. They are very much not the same suspension either, Accords use a knuckle mounted ball joint where the Civic mounts in the control arm, upper control arm design changed a bunch through different models. Even the Civic and Integra didn't really use the same suspension either, they are just very similar and take the same links in a lot of places, Integra parts are hot items for Civic suspension upgrades and swap parts. The only reason I am looking into this is because there is an aftermarket for Civic/Integra parts and not the Accord, I have almost tracked down enough parts compatible parts to go balls out full race suspension on the Accord.

I would really hope my shop would have said something if I had slop in my tie rods because it was just inspected before the first of this month. I haven't jiggled it myself in a while, but there is no play that I know of. I have new front LCAs, strut rod bushings, front Prelude UCAs, struts, swaybars and links, and maybe a few other parts to go in soon. I will hold off on tie rods until I find out if the 3g Civic rack fits, then I will use these Civic tie rods, I will probably grab a stock set on Rockauto before getting Hardrace inverted ones because they are like less than $10 a side. I have reason to believe my lack of power steering and sticky Japanese tires that I have never heard of have something to do with the escalation in bump steer since the beginning of last year before the overhaul where I yanked the engine.

[Oldblueaccord]

It does do that, but only out of a launch.

I am taking measurements with a caliper. Obviously there are some cosmetic differences in the Civic/integra and Accord ball joints, but spec wise they are the same part. They are very much not the same suspension either, Accords use a knuckle mounted ball joint where the Civic mounts in the control arm, upper control arm design changed a bunch through different models. Even the Civic and Integra didn't really use the same suspension either, they are just very similar and take the same links in a lot of places, Integra parts are hot items for Civic suspension upgrades and swap parts. The only reason I am looking into this is because there is an aftermarket for Civic/Integra parts and not the Accord, I have almost tracked down enough parts compatible parts to go balls out full race suspension on the Accord.

I would really hope my shop would have said something if I had slop in my tie rods because it was just inspected before the first of this month. I haven't jiggled it myself in a while, but there is no play that I know of. I have new front LCAs, strut rod bushings, front Prelude UCAs, struts, swaybars and links, and maybe a few other parts to go in soon. I will hold off on tie rods until I find out if the 3g Civic rack fits, then I will use these Civic tie rods, I will probably grab a stock set on Rockauto before getting Hardrace inverted ones because they are like less than $10 a side. I have reason to believe my lack of power steering and sticky Japanese tires that I have never heard of have something to do with the escalation in bump steer since the beginning of last year before the overhaul where I yanked the engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wrosw3xDdmM

This is the only decent Honda related vid I have found on bump steer...yeah there a thousands about it for junky Mustangs and Camaros. I dont care really for his explanation and lack of a drawing...


I found one Honda centric video of bump steer correction kit. These guy have roll correction and bump steer kits but there for Civic which like you said dont have good steering geometry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdn60wWt7yw

I personally dont care for kits like this since your out a real tie rod and into a heim joint. They have a extended lower ball joint I kinda like if you want to mess with your roll center.

Some platforms they sell a steering rack bushing kits that moves the rack mounts up or down. I like that idea the best.

EDIT:

..and my final thought for now my favorite Youtuber atm, explanation of bumpstee,r at the 10 min. mark. He built his own car,does his own carbon fiber panels and lots of cool stuff.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh535De4hKg

[conozo]

I have bump steer. I do not have power steering but i noticed it most since i got my wider tires on. 205-45R16 I am lowered 1.5 inches but still have my stock bushings, all ball joints are good.

My plan is to install a Prius 2nd gen power steering shaft and look into seeing if i can raise the rack to mach my lowering. Adjusting the rack height is the real solution but I haven't looked at that yet, im not sure there is enough room to move it up.

[ShiRen]

I personally dont care for kits like this since your out a real tie rod and into a heim joint. They have a extended lower ball joint I kinda like if you want to mess with your roll center.

Some platforms they sell a steering rack bushing kits that moves the rack mounts up or down. I like that idea the best.

Whats wrong with the pillow ball bushing? These tie rods are just like whats used in every drift car ever, the tie rod ends are a big benefit to them allowing a more extreme angle on the joint without binding. The extended lower ball joints were a part I was looking into. I am not lowered yet, so I can't say whether I want to change my roll center. Probably though.

My plan is to install a Prius 2nd gen power steering shaft and look into seeing if i can raise the rack to mach my lowering. Adjusting the rack height is the real solution but I haven't looked at that yet, im not sure there is enough room to move it up.

I would love EPS as long I can shut it off above parking lot speed. wouldn't you be doing the same thing by installing inverted tie rods?

These are some of the parts I am looking at installing
https://jhpusa.com/collections/bump-...-94-01-integra
https://jhpusa.com/collections/roll-...-94-01-integra

[stat1K]

It does do that, but only out of a launch.

I am taking measurements with a caliper.

that's good, without the caliper present in any pictures it looked to me like you were measuring them on a piece of paper, lol.

Obviously there are some cosmetic differences in the Civic/integra and Accord ball joints, but spec wise they are the same part. They are very much not the same suspension either, Accords use a knuckle mounted ball joint where the Civic mounts in the control arm, upper control arm design changed a bunch through different models. Even the Civic and Integra didn't really use the same suspension either, they are just very similar and take the same links in a lot of places, Integra parts are hot items for Civic suspension upgrades and swap parts. The only reason I am looking into this is because there is an aftermarket for Civic/Integra parts and not the Accord, I have almost tracked down enough parts compatible parts to go balls out full race suspension on the Accord.

While the second half of this makes sense, the first does not. No one ever stated the civic and integra have the same suspension as the accord in fact i inferred heavily to the contrary. I would like to point out that none of my 4th,5th or 6th gen civics have a control arm mounted ball joint as it is mounted on the knuckle as well (read 88-2000)... the 3rd gen civic and 1st gen crx however are a different animal but we aren't talking about their balljoints as far as i know are we? And as for being the same as the integra, they are not the same in that stock the integra came with different spring rates and valving on the struts but they are the same in that they have identical mounting locations and parts are interchangeable, i feel like at this point we are being pedantic. But i guess what do i know only having owned 3 4th gen civics, 2 5th gens and a 6th gen.

I would really hope my shop would have said something if I had slop in my tie rods because it was just inspected before the first of this month. I haven't jiggled it myself in a while, but there is no play that I know of. I have new front LCAs, strut rod bushings, front Prelude UCAs, struts, swaybars and links, and maybe a few other parts to go in soon. I will hold off on tie rods until I find out if the 3g Civic rack fits, then I will use these Civic tie rods, I will probably grab a stock set on Rockauto before getting Hardrace inverted ones because they are like less than $10 a side. I have reason to believe my lack of power steering and sticky Japanese tires that I have never heard of have something to do with the escalation in bump steer since the beginning of last year before the overhaul where I yanked the engine.

I wouldn't trust anything i didn't verify with my own eyes so that's up to you whether you believe them or not. All i know is bump steer was never really a problem with any of the honda's i've had except for the one that had bad inner tie rods lol

[ShiRen]

While the second half of this makes sense, the first does not. No one ever stated the civic and integra have the same suspension as the accord in fact i inferred heavily to the contrary. I would like to point out that none of my 4th,5th or 6th gen civics have a control arm mounted ball joint as it is mounted on the knuckle as well (read 88-2000)... the 3rd gen civic and 1st gen crx however are a different animal but we aren't talking about their balljoints as far as i know are we? And as for being the same as the integra, they are not the same in that stock the integra came with different spring rates and valving on the struts but they are the same in that they have identical mounting locations and parts are interchangeable, i feel like at this point we are being pedantic. But i guess what do i know only having owned 3 4th gen civics, 2 5th gens and a 6th gen.

I think we are getting a little mixed up here lol, I edited my post and thats why I kind of randomly talked about the Civic vs Accord suspension. What I have is the Civic/Integra ball joint on the left and our stock Accord ball joint on the left. They are the same ball joint aside from a few cosmetic differences, so we can use aftermarket ball joints for the Civic/Integra The stock Civic ones might actually be a little bit better too if other brands also make them to a higher tolerance, but I am not going to buy a bunch of different brands just to find out. I just looked at the Civic LCAs and now I do see they have a knuckle mounted ball joint too... guess I was talking out my ass there, idk what I saw to think they were in the control arm.
The 3rd gen Civic is totally different yes, but the steering rack uses the same mount as ours, I am not talking about using any other parts from it. Newer Civics and Accords use a through hole mount vs ours having a clamp type on the side nearest to the steering column.

I will check out the tie rods soon, but I wheel it around by hand all the time, to my knowledge they have no play, I think it is the lack of power steering since Conozo and I are the only ones that have the bump steer.

[Dr_Snooz]

Bad upper control arms will make the steering completely spastic over uneven road surfaces. They seem to wear out quick and l think routine replacement is a worthy idea.

[ShiRen]

Well those will go in soon. Don't the rear UCAs routinely go bad too? I haven't even bought a new set of those... Cheddas looking mighty fine tho

[Oldblueaccord]

Well those will go in soon. Don't the rear UCAs routinely go bad too? I haven't even bought a new set of those... Cheddas looking mighty fine tho

the upper rear the ball joints wears out pretty quick and can possible fail.

[Dr_Snooz]

Yeah, the rears just fail without warning and do catastrophic damage to the car. I've found the upper control arms on these cars go real quick. I'm on my 3rd set in what, 50k miles?

[ShiRen]

I guess serviceability is another nice thing about Prelude UCAs. I wonder what causes them to fail though.

Used to drive a 97 Mercury cougar, a car infamous for shearing lower ball joints, but thats a really big car and the suspension isnt as heavy as a Crown Vic or as simple as a Mustang

[Oldblueaccord]

I feel like the rear must bind somehow or have added stress. This is on box stock cars not cars lowered 4 inches. I did a write up here about using replaceable ball joints and adding a grease fitting its floating around some place on here. The greasing makes them last. Again this is on the rear UCA.

I believe I have a set of front UCA that the ball joint is replaceable, so I added grease fitting to them as well, but writing this I am not sure the ball joint is a separate part.

My only issue, and this is just a pick, is I never got any response from anyone using the Prelude arms on how they effect your handling and/or alignment. Just comments on "it fixed my camber problem" from people with lowered cars and scared of negative camber. Bit curious if this adds caster and or adds to bump steer. Ill probably never find out.

[ShiRen]

I think I did see that post. This is why I'd look towards the Cheddas rear UCAs since theyre a pillow ball bushing... but if they go out to youre going to have to replace them somehow.

I never thought to put my Prelude arms up next to the stock arms tbh, I just assumed they were basically the same arm. I just bought them since they are about the only arm that has adjustable camber. If they are a different length, because this is a short-long arm double wishbone, or have an off center ball joint (in the x or y axis) then they will change the handling. Actually, since the ball joint moves forward and back in relation to the pivot in the control arm they will decrease the camber change through travel as you ass positive camber, that is with caster aside. The stock control arms would have less affect on this if you put spacers behind them since the length between two joints do not change. As far as fixed caster goes I doubt they have any real affect, it doesn't really matter either since we can adjust the strut rod and we don't have any wheelbase related issues like an MR2. I don't know if an x offset will actually change the roll center, because the UCA does not carry the load of the strut. All that being said I assume any change is pretty negligible, but I will compare them for you. I don't think that will do anything to bump steer, if there is a roll center or caster change that affects it, it is not going to move much vs stock, at least nothing like RCA ball joints. I am doing my own alignment with manual gauges, setting camber and toe to 0, and cranking the caster up because afik its set at flat 0 because thats what the fsm says. I am not opposed to adding some camber, itll take some fiddling.

[Dr_Snooz]

I wonder what causes them to fail though.

It's a complicated suspension design and we tend to push hard through every corner because the car sticks so good. The lower joints are pretty beefy, so the load concentrates on the uppers. They are a fairly slender design too. Just my theory.

The greasing makes them last.

How do you keep from blowing out the boots when you fill them? I've tried the fillable ones and I always blow the boots. It makes me sad.

[ShiRen]

How do you keep from blowing out the boots when you fill them? I've tried the fillable ones and I always blow the boots. It makes me sad.

Two pumps my guy

[Oldblueaccord]

Two pumps my guy

yeah little self control goes along way.

[Dr_Snooz]

Yeah. Two pumps, then 15,000 miles later 2 more pumps and poof!