The Saga Continues!

[Dibbs]

There's been an ongoing problem w/ my car during the past 2 months that seems to be centralized around my fuel delivery. I've been posting like crazy on the matter and everyone has helped as much as they can, considering the information I gave. The problem seems to be constantly turning for the worst.

Basically I am at the point now to where my car has ZERO acceleration. There's an overwhelming smell of either gas or emmisions when I floor the pedal (Automatic). It's at it's worst when I'm climbing a hill. It continues to lose power until I peak the hill, then I can begin to accelerate, yet slowly. Also, my gas consumption has increased by about 25%. The PGM-FI light was flashing almost rythmicaly but now it is on constantly. When I go to check the ECU for a code, there is not one. I've tried resetting the ECU. That has not worked either.

So far I have replaced the fuel filter, cleaned the EGR and EGR tube, checked all of the hoses for leaks and cleaned my throttle body. I would check for blockage in my Cat Converter but I don't have one.

I'm really at a loss for suggestions on what to do. I guess I could replace the fuel pump and the sensors ascociated with fuel delivery, but I really don't like guess work. I've also considered taking it to the Honda dealer and paying them to diagnose the problem and fix it myself. Any suggestions guys?

[Vinny]

Do you have any odea where the fuel smell is comming from??????? The best start that I can think of is to check your pressure on the fuel system, the shop manual has all the steps in it and it doesn't look too difficult. Has it gotten worse since you changed the fuel filter??? Check to make sure your not leaking there from either a lack of the crush washer that goes on or a possible cracked fitting when you tightened everything down. If its an LX-i have you checked into your O2 sensors, could be fouled and letting it run rich.

If you haven't DL'd the manual yet you def need to get it here http://www.pauldesign.ru/honda/shopmanual.html

Just as a starter for you they list poor driveability and high fuel consumption possible causes as ECU, open/shorted injector, stuck injector, faulty pump/main relay, poor grounding(pump), improper fuel line pressure, clogged filter, Stuck Air bypass valve, crank angle sensor, Maifold Absolute Pressure Sensor, O2 sensor open/short or faulty, coolant temp sensor, throttle angle sensor, intake air sensor, idle control system (faulty solenoid valve/stuck open).
Important issues they list check timing and fuel cutoff operation.

Now the PGM-FI list asECU, Crank angle sensor, MAP Sensor(manifold absolute pressure), Atmospheric Pressure sensor, 02 sensor, Coolant temp Sensor, throttle Angle sensor, Intake Air Temp Sensor
Important points are listed as check ECU codes.

I highlighted the things both problems have in common as possible causes so thats a good placve to start troubleshooting, the manual gives info on how to troubleshoot most of the above components. Do some reasearch and most importantly try to do smart troubleshooting, find things that may cause multiple problems you are having then check those 1 by 1 don't just throw parts at your car. As I learned years ago troubleshooting Avionics problem...... K.I.S.S- Keep It Simple Stupid just take your time and do it right

[Dibbs]

Well, I can eliminate the CT sensor. I recently replaced it. Everything else is fair game I suppose. I imagine the service manual has resistance specs for the sensors listed so I can check them with the multimeter, right?

[smufguy]

One suggestion i can give you is to have your friend or someone in the car after its been warmed up and then u open the hood and ask them to rev the engine at intermediate times. See if you can smell or see fuel leaks. Injector O-rings are one of the things that are going bad in our cars these days. Also check under the car to see if the fuel delivery line is all intact and nothing is leaking or what not.

Second, check all fuel fittings for proper tightness cause a loose fitting can cause a lot of damage. Also the )2 sensors are a big suckers.

Third, Check your flex pipe before the car and check your exhaust system for any kinda leaks. A flex pipe leak causes a lot of power loss.

fourth, Check your Air cleaner (it might not be related to your fuel smell issue, but consider power loss is a result of this).

Drastic measures: Pull the emission box from a jukyard car and fit it onto yours and see what happens.

[ACCORD EX]

air filter and O2 sensor ?? checked ECU for codes ?

Mike !

[smufguy]

mike he mentioned about no codes on the ECU which bothers me. IF you have the check engine light on, you should have a code in ur ecu. THe small LED blinks???

[Dibbs]

Originally posted by ACCORD EX
air filter and O2 sensor ?? checked ECU for codes ?

Mike !

Yup...the ECU is not registering any codes even though the light is on all the time. Is this a common occourence?

[88LXi/87CRXSi]

Originally posted by Dibbie
Yup...the ECU is not registering any codes even though the light is on all the time. Is this a common occourence?

Not common, but it occurs! From my '88 manual:

When the Check Engine warning light is on with no blinks on the self diagnosis indicator, the back-up system is in operation.

In other words one or more sensors has gone south! The ecu can't operate properly, so now it's just running a basic program with no inputs, and so the engine runs like shit just to get you home!
Only thing I can think of is to reset the ecu, unplug it for a few minutes ( the ecu/clock fuse underhood fusebox or disconnect the battery) then start the car and when the check engine light comes on, shut it off, then try to count a code with key on, before it goes into back-up mode.

[Dibbs]

I've reset my ECU multiple times this weekend, but to no success. Yes I do fear it is in back up mode. Oh I dunnow....

[88LXi/87CRXSi]

Originally posted by 88LXi/87CRXSi
In other words one or more sensors has gone south!

After reading some more, I was wrong on that, it's probably not your sensors, but maybe the ecu itself.

What I saw on the next page:

Ecu back-up functions

1. Fail-safe Function
When an abnormality occurs in signal from a sensor, the ECU ignores that signal and assumes a pre-programmed value that allows the engine to continue to run.

2. Back-up Function
When an abnormality occurs in the ECU itself, the injections are controlled by a back-up circuit independent of the system in order to permit minimal driving.

For your sake, I hope I'm wrong on this, too!

[NXRacer]

I'd suspect bad injectors. Run the tank almost empty and put in a bottle of injector cleaner. Also, arent there 2 fuel filters in our cars?

[86AccordLxi]

Only one in the lxi model. Two in the carbed.

Alex

[Dibbs]

Originally posted by 88LXi/87CRXSi

For your sake, I hope I'm wrong on this, too!

I would think replacing the ECU would be pretty simple. Just plug & play right?

As for the injectors, I sprayed around the injectors to see if the engine would rev b/c I thought about that too. I've been putting every different kind of injector cleaner in my car I can find, hoping that one of them would help. I had a run in w/ some bad gas a while back.

I think it's just time for a new power plant altogether. It leaks oil (slowly), the valve guides are starting to leak, I have to put a quart of ATF fluid in my tranny every month, plus there's this friction type noise from the tranny when I move the shifter from park to drive and vise versa. I have a few options and I'm not quite sure which I'm gonna take yet.

OPTION 1
I have an A20A3 that I got from a guy off ebay that had been stripped, power cleaned and milled(deck) a la machine shop. Get this...only $20. He also offered me the 5-speed that went with it w/ a lightened and balanced factory flywheel for another $20. They're currently sitting on a pallet, soaked in Marvel Mystery Oil and shrink wrapped. I could throw some 8.5:1 pistons and buy Sean's turbo setup to make for one hell of a build-up. That option is a bit pricey but would be like a new car when complete.

OPTION 2
I could buy a B20A setup for around $750 and deal with the headaches involved with using the 'Teg Dist. & Crank angle sensor so I can use my wiring harness & ECU. Not the hardest thing I've ever done to a car but it's not a breeze either.

OPTION 3
Buy another A20A3 from an engine importer and slowly build my crated motor/tranny as I get the time.

OPTION 4
Throw an H22A engine into my 4th Gen. It's considerably newer (92) and everything is great except for the motor. I got it for free so who's complaining?

This car is a daily driver. I drive about 125 Miles each day so I put my car under a good deal of stress. Even though I take care of her, she is 17 years old and I understand that with all I put her through, things are gonna go wrong simply for the fact that this is an old car with a LOT of original equipment in it, and electrical equipment at that.

I know I'm veering away from my own thread but if I don't find out what's wrong w/ my car soon, I'm just gonna start over. My only reservation is that my current problem may not lie within engine. For example, if it's my fuel pump, sending unit or anything related to fuel delivery that's not part of the engine, swapping motors will not do me no good. Honestly, it's the only thing keeping me from ripping my current motor out and tossing in something new.

[Vinny]

Sean says check your MAP sensor

[Dibbs]

cool....do you know the specs for the sensor so I can check it w/ the multimeter?

[Vinny]

I'll PM ya

[NXRacer]

Go with a stock A20 in your 3g, and get an H22 for your 4g!!!

[Dibbs]

Thnx Vinny.

Good call Racer!

Which A20 though? The build-up for Turbo or used replacement? Ya know if I did the beefed up the build-up I could throw down a 40 or 50 shot of the juice! That with Sean's setup would be niiiiiiiiiiiiice.

[88LXi/87CRXSi]

Replacing the ecu would be a plug in affair, like you said. How did your Map sensor check out? Could also be other things too, like the throttle angle sensor, EGR lift valve sensor, fuse #1 under hood, #1 in the dash fuse box, ECU/clock fuse (#11?) , main relay, wiring or even the grounds to the main relay and ECU. When you turn your ignition switch to "on", does the dash check engine light go on for two seconds, then go off? Or does it stay on? If it does stay on, try disconnecting the Map, the throttle position, and egr lift sensors one at a time and see if the light goes out. If you haven't downloaded the service manual from Paul's site,:super: , at least get the fuel and emmisions control chapter and check pages 12-18 and 12-19 for troubleshooting procedure.
maybe you can get this engine running right, then do the A20 build up. The H22A in the 92 makes me drool!