Turbo vs Swap

[drknow]

Ok, Im drivin a stock 88 DX with no performance parts.......The engine has 30000 miles on it....the car has 160000 miles on it.....Would a turbo be better than just gettin a whole new engine with the extra horsepower. I mean, I really wanna hear the pissing sounds when I go down the road, but a new engine doesnt sound so bad either. What is the price difference in the two options?

[Sean]

dollar for dollar spent even doing a basic rebuild on the engine to freshen it. turbo beats a swap hands down dollar per HP gained.

[zero.counter]

Here is a question you must ask yourself, do you want reliability or speed? Yes, some may argue that you can definately get the turbo with reliability (low boost), but then what if something goes wrong?

I hope that others will contribute the advantages and disadvantages so you may get a better picture. Good Luck!

[Sean]

got news for you. the swap in motors are far less reliable then the one youd be taking out.also do you consider 10psi low boost ?

[deadlight]

Turbos can actually be pretty reliable, I hear alot of people saying they aren't, I mean really, there aren't a whole lot of moving parts there.

[Sean]

reliabilty issues stem from improper tunning to the most basic of all. people putting cheap gas in there shit. in fact gm put a piece of code in the controller im using for the ecm kits that figures out what grade of gas is in the car and retards spark to prevent knock. thats not to say that you shouldnt run 93 but if the wife g/f puts the wrong shit in itll save your motor.

[toastyghost]

Originally posted by deadlight
Turbos can actually be pretty reliable, I hear alot of people saying they aren't

A lot of people don't know what the fuck they're doing. More air requires more fuel.

[kicker1_solo]

you have an old cheap honda (just like me) with no money spent for performance.....do you really have the cash for a turbo, or even a nice swap?

[RobT5580]

As for turbos i dont see them as being less reliable but in my view of my plans if im gonna do a turbo (which i am) im not gonna spend that money for a low boost setup plus i do expect things to break if i beat the crap out of my car. I mainly worry about the transmission and clutch because they take a lot of abuse. But i am expecting my setup to hold up well unless i get carried away and beat on the car a lot. So reliability is based on if you build it properly and how you drive your car.

[2old_honda]

An unreliable turbocharged car is usually due to user error.

[drknow]

Hmmm....this has me thinkin. I gotta get one

[RobT5580]

Easier said than done.....Make sure you know what your getting into before you make big plans. I know Sean was working on a kit so that would be the best bet to getting a kit and some technical support to help you out. I wish it was as easy as buying a kit but then again it makes it even more interesting cause nobody will have the same setup in an accord unless Sean puts out a kit.

[od2681]

tune this motor...NA power.haha

[deadlight]

Originally posted by toastyghost
A lot of people don't know what the fuck they're doing. More air requires more fuel.

No shit man, it's like everybody thinks you just slap it together and it's done, you need to upgrade your fuel system and things like that, stock fuel management in a naturally aspirated car is usually not the answer, turbos are actually quite nice, especially to repair, crack it open, pull out the fins, bearing, replace. simple.

[zero.counter]

Originally posted by Sean
got news for you. the swap in motors are far less reliable then the one youd be taking out.also do you consider 10psi low boost ?

I didn't catch this post.

There is no news for me to have. I consider 8 PSI low boost because that is what I used to run my old S13 SR to get good mileage and less engine wear and good enough performance, stock internals that is. I could have run higher on KAs, I don't recommend that you run a boost higher than 6 PSI on stock internals due to inevitable engine failure. So my point is, yes you can swap a motor which proves to be reliable in which would (or had) been better than the one already sitting in the engine bay.

About the reliability aspect of my comment, it can be stemmed from what you said or again running a high boost with stock parts, causing a significant decrease in such. DSMs come to mind when I say that since they are notorious for requiring rebuilds due to reliability issues. The same goes for RX-7s with their constant rebuilding of the rotaries due to overheating, the placement of the turbos on the last generation and the constant tuning regarding effective cooling. Quick and unreliable wear.

The point is, forced induction has and will cause premature wear on any engine, unless you have some $6k internals from Toda Racing or something. If he just sticks with a stock engine and nurtures it, it will prove to be very reliable and get him where he wants to go.

[zero.counter]

[zero.counter]

Originally posted by Sean
in fact gm put a piece of code in the controller im using for the ecm kits that figures out what grade of gas is in the car and retards spark to prevent knock.

Yeah, its referred to as a knock sensor in most cars that have one.

Also, I found a really nice article about the Gas Grades.
Here

Just to give you some insight.

[Cyric_accord]

Originally posted by zero.counter
About the reliability aspect of my comment, it can be stemmed from what you said or again running a high boost with stock parts, causing a significant decrease in such. DSMs come to mind when I say that since they are notorious for requiring rebuilds due to reliability issues. The same goes for RX-7s with their constant rebuilding of the rotaries due to overheating, the placement of the turbos on the last generation and the constant tuning regarding effective cooling. Quick and unreliable wear.

Well, it doesn't help on the RX-7 that the 12A and 13B engines go thru oil like a btch and the Apex seals go to shit really fast, usually have to replace them within 50k miles each time. The Twin Ts on the 3rd Gen 7s just wear on the seals even worse.

[Sean]

Originally posted by zero.counter
I didn't catch this post.

There is no news for me to have. I consider 8 PSI low boost because that is what I used to run my old S13 SR to get good mileage and less engine wear and good enough performance, stock internals that is. I could have run higher on KAs, I don't recommend that you run a boost higher than 6 PSI on stock internals due to inevitable engine failure. So my point is, yes you can swap a motor which proves to be reliable in which would (or had) been better than the one already sitting in the engine bay.

Please define a better engine ? one with vtec ?perhaps forged pistons ? ppplllleeeaaassseeee help this child. example. chrysler t2 motors came factory with 12 psi of boost and cast pistons. yes cast pistons. the reliability issues come down to 2 major compnenets. cylinder combustion temps ( read not EGT ) timing and fuel. with the triad of things done correctly the engine can live a very long and happy life with forced induction.

Originally posted by zero.counter

About the reliability aspect of my comment, it can be stemmed from what you said or again running a high boost with stock parts, causing a significant decrease in such. DSMs come to mind when I say that since they are notorious for requiring rebuilds due to reliability issues. The same goes for RX-7s with their constant rebuilding of the rotaries due to overheating, the placement of the turbos on the last generation and the constant tuning regarding effective cooling. Quick and unreliable wear.

alot of DSM engine fail not becuase there weak engine. most fail due to neglect over heating and lots of spark knock. also running out of fuel dont help either. lean a turbo engine out and kabooom. having worked in a machine shop for a while that specialized in import engine. i can assure you 90% of the failrure didnt come from to much boost. mostly to little fuel and knock from incorrectly managaing the timing. RX7's heat doenst ruin the apex seals. knock sure will though.

Originally posted by zero.counter

The point is, forced induction has and will cause premature wear on any engine, unless you have some $6k internals from Toda Racing or something. If he just sticks with a stock engine and nurtures it, it will prove to be very reliable and get him where he wants to go.

for the last comment im gonna fill you in on something. the engine in my car use to consume about one quart of oil every oil change. now with the turbo on the car is consume about 1/4 of a quart every oil change. the reason for this is becuase the engine no longer has to work so hard on the highway to maintian speed. its also been pretty effective at blowing the shit out of the motor.
this is normal however for a turbo engine.

in short your beliving myths not that facts. the short story is people beat the living dogshit out of there motors. then blame the turbo. its not the turbos fualt.

[Sean]

Originally posted by zero.counter
Yeah, its referred to as a knock sensor in most cars that have one.

Also, I found a really nice article about the Gas Grades.
Here

Just to give you some insight.

im pretty sure i have alot mroe understanding of what a knock sensor is and how it works then you are giving me credit for. i was simply making a statement about the fact that the ECM will test for gasoline grades to prevent kncok.

[zero.counter]

HaHA, I like how you referred to me as kid.
I thought that you were supposed to be setting an example for fellow posters, since you are a moderator and all.
I know that you got that position based on merit and overall knowledge of a specific subject. But you must learn that we do not always agree with each other and that is part of life.
Look, I know that you have a reputation to keep around here and such as the "Turbo Guru", but I don't share your opinions because I have done otherwise in my time. Unless you can disprove my previous experiences with building cars that is, if so...then may I call you god?

Anyways, better engine, an SR20DET or even a KA24DE. I have purchased both used in the past, and had great success running with/without turbos. Maybe you misunderstood my original post. I insinuated that some may have problems with either reliability and/or speed. I never said me, so don't try swaying me. Great to see that you share my thoughts on internals and their respective position in the reliability aspect of it. Right there, I know that you have knowledge of the concepts behind forced induction and such.

I never went into great detail about the DSMs, and I surely never said WEAK, I did however say that they do not wear gracefully when turbo'd. That again is with personal experience. I am not worried about the, "He said, she said" crap on the internet and hear say. I post out of true and complete personal background. If you saw that problem with so many customers running lean, then maybe you should have suggested a better management system such as a piggy back unit or re-programmed ECU as opposed to an S-AFC, ball valve boost controller or a cheap boost timer/controller and sorts. I don't see that problem very often, it is mostly due to redlining hard asses that have much to prove and love making me money.:lol
As for the RX-7s ( 3rd gen), I was referring to the poor stock performance of the cooling system, usually alleviated by adding a Mazda Competition aluminum radiator, which increases the allowable surface area for cooling over the stock unit. With some of the TTs, the heat was trapped inside of the engine bay due to their placement. So we would custom fabricate a nice little air dam from the driver's side wheel well to accomodate.

I am glad that your engine uses very little oil. So do mine, even though my last KA24DET had over 141,000 Miles on it. Even at 8psi, my oil would not burn until around 2k Miles. I don't think that everyone here has the time or money to boost a grocery hauler to warp speed. I am giving the original poster a realistic view in to what he would be getting into. Reliability and longevity are the selling points of the hondas, especially our trust accords.

If you feel threatened by my "scurrying into your territory", then I will no longer post on this thread. But I must again reiterate my point, I have experience as well, and disagree with you. I don't understand why you can't just take it for face value. Everything I have said has merit and is what it is, regardless of your comebacks and attempts to make me look like foolish and uneducated.

BTW, I have saved this post just in case and don't tune to race 1/4 mile speeds for bragging, I do it for fun!
Also, please not that I am generic in most of my points and you can figure the scope (or some of it) my knowledge and whether I am ignorant by viewing my previous posts.

[Sean]

Originally posted by zero.counter
HaHA, I like how you referred to me as kid.
I thought that you were supposed to be setting an example for fellow posters, since you are a moderator and all.
I know that you got that position based on merit and overall knowledge of a specific subject. But you must learn that we do not always agree with each other and that is part of life.
Look, I know that you have a reputation to keep around here and such as the "Turbo Guru", but I don't share your opinions because I have done otherwise in my time. Unless you can disprove my previous experiences with building cars that is, if so...then may I call you god?

Anyways, better engine, an SR20DET or even a KA24DE. I have purchased both used in the past, and had great success running with/without turbos. Maybe you misunderstood my original post. I insinuated that some may have problems with either reliability and/or speed. I never said me, so don't try swaying me. Great to see that you share my thoughts on internals and their respective position in the reliability aspect of it. Right there, I know that you have knowledge of the concepts behind forced induction and such.

I never went into great detail about the DSMs, and I surely never said WEAK, I did however say that they do not wear gracefully when turbo'd. That again is with personal experience. I am not worried about the, "He said, she said" crap on the internet and hear say. I post out of true and complete personal background. If you saw that problem with so many customers running lean, then maybe you should have suggested a better management system such as a piggy back unit or re-programmed ECU as opposed to an S-AFC, ball valve boost controller or a cheap boost timer/controller and sorts. I don't see that problem very often, it is mostly due to redlining hard asses that have much to prove and love making me money.:lol
As for the RX-7s ( 3rd gen), I was referring to the poor stock performance of the cooling system, usually alleviated by adding a Mazda Competition aluminum radiator, which increases the allowable surface area for cooling over the stock unit. With some of the TTs, the heat was trapped inside of the engine bay due to their placement. So we would custom fabricate a nice little air dam from the driver's side wheel well to accomodate.

I am glad that your engine uses very little oil. So do mine, even though my last KA24DET had over 141,000 Miles on it. Even at 8psi, my oil would not burn until around 2k Miles. I don't think that everyone here has the time or money to boost a grocery hauler to warp speed. I am giving the original poster a realistic view in to what he would be getting into. Reliability and longevity are the selling points of the hondas, especially our trust accords.

If you feel threatened by my "scurrying into your territory", then I will no longer post on this thread. But I must again reiterate my point, I have experience as well, and disagree with you. I don't understand why you can't just take it for face value. Everything I have said has merit and is what it is, regardless of your comebacks and attempts to make me look like foolish and uneducated.

BTW, I have saved this post just in case and don't tune to race 1/4 mile speeds for bragging, I do it for fun!
Also, please not that I am generic in most of my points and you can figure the scope (or some of it) my knowledge and whether I am ignorant by viewing my previous posts.

i think the bigger point in who might know more is simply made by who's engine is still alive. im knocking on low 14's. clutch and traction issues asidie im sure with 12 psi of boost and traction i could make it into the low 13's with ease and still retian the stock motor. all of this mind you without a big intercooler or tight mad APEX'i boost controller.

secondly i do not have to go around bragging what i know. i earned it the hard way. worked at machine shops, built racing v8's, raced an a20a N/a before you were even on 3g's. Ive had owned and playd with lots of hi po cars. most of them being domestics. ive owned my share of turbo cars. DSM,dodge lancer,turbo 3g, saab, and a vovlvo wagon. also ive got a pretty impressive list of cars ive tunned helped build and developed.

im getting sick of people like you running around screaming how the a20a cant make power or how it wont live. im calling BS. im running faster then most turbo ls crx's and ive still got a full interior.

until you have a 3g running boost anywhere near 14 in the 1/4 dont come around here and disrespect me or anybody else.

you got corrected and you wanna call foul.

[zero.counter]

Originally posted by Sean
i think the bigger point in who might know more is simply made by who's engine is still alive. im knocking on low 14's. clutch and traction issues asidie im sure with 12 psi of boost and traction i could make it into the low 13's with ease and still retian the stock motor. all of this mind you without a big intercooler or tight mad APEX'i boost controller.

secondly i do not have to go around bragging what i know. i earned it the hard way. worked at machine shops, built racing v8's, raced an a20a N/a before you were even on 3g's. Ive had owned and playd with lots of hi po cars. most of them being domestics. ive owned my share of turbo cars. DSM,dodge lancer,turbo 3g, saab, and a vovlvo wagon. also ive got a pretty impressive list of cars ive tunned helped build and developed.

im getting sick of people like you running around screaming how the a20a cant make power or how it wont live. im calling BS. im running faster then most turbo ls crx's and ive still got a full interior.

until you have a 3g running boost anywhere near 14 in the 1/4 dont come around here and disrespect me or anybody else.

you got corrected and you wanna call foul.

First of all, I never put down the A20A1. If so, then show me where. You can call BS all day. I don't care. Who are you anyways, what? Sean of 3Geez? :lol

I am happy that you run fast and whatever, have a great time doing so. Again, you still don't have anything on me or my experience and are getting mad because I challenged you? WTF?? I love this board! You disrespected me by telling me that I did not know what I was talking about and got mad when I made it a comeback. Don't call it a comeback, i've been here for years.

Don't be scrrr'd. It's all good in da hood vato!

Unless you have anything on me, I will continue posting and loving it. Don't call BS on someone unless you know for sure, otherwise it tends to show an ignorant streak in one's character.

BTW, again I will say this, I never said that my engines were blown, just giving the newbie a bit of info on his quest for power. If so, then show me where.

C'YA

[zero.counter]

PEACE OUT

[Sean]

Originally posted by zero.counter
First of all, I never put down the A20A1. If so, then show me where. You can call BS all day. I don't care. Who are you anyways, what? Sean of 3Geez? :lol

actually i have a day job and a tunning cunsulting firm. im not gonna dive into what you might think you know. while people like your selves run around blabing about tunnign shops ive been getting recurtied by one of the big 3 as a development engineer.
you also just told this guy that he couldnt run boost on his motor cuase it would break. id say that you were making an overstatmen.

I

Originally posted by zero.counter
am happy that you run fast and whatever, have a great time doing so. Again, you still don't have anything on me or my experience and are getting mad because I challenged you? WTF?? I love this board! You disrespected me by telling me that I did not know what I was talking about and got mad when I made it a comeback. Don't call it a comeback, i've been here for years.

your experience. what is that expericne exactly ? care to post a resume of your personal acheivments. in making an 18 second car run 14's with a stock motor ?you chalenged what ? i dont even consider you a challegen. my 3g is just a dial driven toy. those who know me persoanlly know that the really bad ass car sit in the agarage. but then its only a domestic POS 69 charger with an almost finished c5 corevette IRS with a c4 diff and c5 front suspension. thats just the begining of that project. i dunno the twin t76 turbos and 500 inch 400 B motor with EFI and DIS should make for roughly 1100 flywheel HP. still trying to find a trans for that. add in that fact that im totally rebuilding the unidbody due to rust and strengthing it while tying the new IRS and front suspension together. still have to find funds to finish the interior. gonna go 21st century in there Tv's stereo etc. this is to be the baddest ass pro touring street rod built to date but maybe in a yr or 2 ill get it finished. oh and being here for yrs. ive been around since 3g's began basically. i joined 2 months after the board went up at Autoforums.com. but Whoa thats like what 1999 ? maybe i was offered a mod position a long time ago but kept declining. becuase i have a bad habit of standing up to whiny talk alots

Originally posted by zero.counter

Don't be scrrr'd. It's all good in da hood vato!

who siad anything about being scard. it would be nice if you could actually add something to this other then the constant jabber of your jaw. acomplish something for the community

Originally posted by zero.counter

Unless you have anything on me, I will continue posting and loving it. Don't call BS on someone unless you know for sure, otherwise it tends to show an ignorant streak in one's character.

the only ignoratn streak i see is yours. im so impressed that you managed to figure out that overevving DSM break thet timming belt. never mind all the melted pistons and crack pistons ive pulled from motors after ive repeatadly told people to buy accel DFI or some other stand alone to help. Whats with you piggy back users anyways ? most piggys backs are the most half assed stuff around.

Originally posted by zero.counter

BTW, again I will say this, I never said that my engines were blown, just giving the newbie a bit of info on his quest for power. If so, then show me where.

you didnt have to say they were blown merly as much as you infered you had a reliabilty issue. maybe if you knew how to read plugs for signs of knock becuase quiet ofetn its the knock you dont here that does the damage. probably pretty hard with that 4 inch exhuast though.

Originally posted by zero.counter


C'YA

hahahahaha :flipa: