b20a head gasket help/question

[Versanick]

So I got the head gasket Yasu sent me, and it is indeed the correct part # (the Honda of Japan lady told me the original part # was 12251-PH3-003, and the new updated part # is 12251-PH3-033), and Yasu sent me the 033, the supposed correct part.

However, in the package (looks like original Honda packagint), the one gasketted circular part of it that looks like it has a pink seal around it, abut 1" by 1/2" oval, on the corner, has popped out. All three of them look like they CAN pop out, but we dont' know if they're supposed to. We've never seen a head gasket with these things separately attached. I forget what they're called now, lobes or something. Either way, the old head gasket (blown) looks like the things are supposed to sit there and then melt when the car runs for the first time, to seal it. We can't figure out if it's safe to pop it in there (it'll stay just fine, but no idea about how much under pressure it will)... or if the head gasket is bad and I should take advantage of the shipping insurance we put on it in the mail to get another one.

Does anyone know if these things are okay to be popped out? They look like they seal when they melt. I mean We will set them back in when we put it on and set it all on tight and whatnot... but is that a good idea or should it be junked, and another one be bought? I have no idea how fragile it's supposed to be.

Thanks, dudes.
-paul

[RobT5580]

I dont think they should come out and the old B20A head i took off did have one come loose. But every gasket from Audi/Porsche had them bonded with the actual gasket. I have only had to do one honda head gasket on a 92 Lude and that seemed bonded together so i dont know for sure.

Are you the one that bought B20ATurbo's accord?

[Versanick]

That's the car. I am getting mixed messages of "that's not supposed to happen" and "you should be fine as long as it stays, and it'll bond when it heats up"...

Has ANYONE put a quantity of head gaskets on that have ever seen this happen? It's kind of important, since I don't have a car to go to class and work to every day (still)... lots of fun for me, lol...

thanks rob... hopefully someone else has a good idea too,
peace
paul

[Sean]

put up a picture of the offendingh piece of the gasket. im failing to visulize this enough to say yes or no.

[Versanick]

Okay I have pictures of the gasket, the little grommet thing, and the old blown head gasket, and my motor with the head off. They're not beautiful pictures, nor are they real sharp. But you can certainly see the exact piece that is the problem, and you can see where it goes. Can I just put this piece back in and bolt everything down right and see what happens?

The guy at the honda dealership that works on them told me that that's not supposed to happen, and that he's never seen it. All of the 3 grommet things feel like they would pop right out if I pushed them, anyway, but is it a bad idea?

The site'll be there in 10 minutes if it's not up yet, I have to let it keep uploading while I go to work... here it is though

http://pkopalek.mikeblakeslee.com/headgasket/Sites.html

don't ask why... if it's not up right now, I'll make sure it's up by 1 am EST b/c this server's not letting me upload it right.... ugh... PLEASE revisit this thread later if the link doesn't work, I'll make it work.

thanks dudes
paul

[RobT5580]

I havnt seen the pics but i know exactly what your talking about and i would hate to take the risk but if its in place when you bolt it down then it should seal properly as long as it stays in the proper location. As i said one of my B20A's was the same way when i took it apart. Those parts are raised so i would think it would be flattened when you torque down the head to seal.

[skiingco]

Rob,

I see Paul got a Head Gasket through Yasu. Did Yasu go to www.surreyhonda.com like you listed on the other thread. Your initial source for me to get the oil pump assy and misc. seals, such as the oil pan seal, was a japan parts place, but you wrote this other source Yasu was close to could get it cheaper, but they wanted a vin? Help me out here, I am trying to get the accord guts and this other stuff at the same time so I can take the enging in and get all done at once.
chris

[RobT5580]

Sorry i had a lot of posts floating around cause i was working with 3 different places on getting parts. I was told from a older B20A owner that surrey honda had parts but later found the only part they could get was the water pump so if you need a pump they have them. I couldnt find my original post on the place in Japan but i posted a link to it. Here is their website but you have to provide part numbers and they will give you a quote but please dont bother them unless you are ready to buy. I have listed on the very fist topic in the engine swap forum the prices from other places which are a little higher but they may have even changed now.
http://210.150.108.106/~spiosk/parts/e-info.htm

I dont want to bombard them with just tons of quotes so they get pissed off and wont sell. I will dig up the actually prices they gave me and post them and make it stay so we dont have to dig trough the many pages cause it is confusing.

[Sean]

dude i got bad news for you. that motor needs to be taken out torn down and have the deck surface on the block milled. i saw you had the head milled but i think the problem is starting at the area where the bores are siamesed. hey while you have the head off lay a a20a head gasket on there and snap a few pics. just morbid curiosity on my part.

BTW that headgasket looks fine to use.

[Versanick]

Okay Sites.html isnt' working for some reason right now, so get to http://pkopalek.mikeblakeslee.com/headgasket/ and click on the Sites-images part, and it'll list the images, all of them are pertinent... go down the list.

Apparently Sean can see the pics pretty good.

How do you know that about my block just by looking at it?

b20aturbo told me it was cool and there was nothing wrong with it the last time he had it off, could the deck have gotten messed up when the head gasket blew?

Tell me anything I'd need to know... all my friends know what we're doing with this stuff (two of them are Subaru techs and tear apart subaru motors every day at a 5-star subaru place)... they didn't even notice anything wrong with the deck on the block.

I'll look into that. I really don't have the time or the money to put into that, so if it comes to that I'd probably just sell the car. There goes a dream.

Ugh.

[Versanick]

Okay well flatland racing WON'T make the little sealed part like that, so I'm assuming I'm going to have that problem regardless.

Forgetting about the part where I need to get my deck shaved on my block (hopefully its just discolored), can anyone tell me FOR SURE if I can use this head gasket or not??!

This is a pic of the head gasket with the little grommet thing kind of placed where it goes, but not stuck into its spot, just to show where it goes


These are a better look at the grommet




Sorry for the blurriness, but this is a pic of the grommet thingy when I put it back in where it goes. It stays there unless I put a VERY small amount of finger pressure on it to pop out. What worries me is that it won't settle in the right place when that seal around it melts, when the car runs. WILL IT OR NOT??!!! has this happened to NO ONE ELSE??! I've been without my car for a day short of FOUR WEEKS, and I can't do this anymore. SOMEONE needs to tell me if I can use this head gasket or if I HAVE to get another one! PLEASE!



thanks dudes
paul

[Sean]

How do you know that about my block just by looking at it?

becuase ive been building motors for the better part of my life.

b20aturbo told me it was cool and there was nothing wrong with it the last time he had it off, could the deck have gotten messed up when the head gasket blew

apaerentlt its blown a headgasket before. the discoloration without the gasket being blown between cylinders 3-4 1-2 suggest that its been leaking hot gass's. if so and the head wasnt warped then by defualt the block has issues.granted its not a big deal to have the block decked. just do a teardown to a bare block number label all parts and have it decked $30 is what most machine shops charge. put the engine back together and life goes on. or get a machinist straigth edge and check the deck for flat with a feel guage. dont be surprised however the deck is divited inbetween the bores.chance are if the deck was improperly surfaced with to aggresive of a sander etc the last time a head gasket was put on that may have created the divots.

[Versanick]

Either way, is that head gasket good to use if I get the block decked?

Okay, http://pkopalek.mikeblakeslee.com/headgasket/Sites.html works now

Use that, it has all the pics in thumbnails on there.

Is this headgasket okay? Would you or have you used ones that have done this?

Sean?

Thanks dude

[skiingco]

Paul,

Where did you get the headers for your engine. When I send mine into the shop, it would be excellant for me to replace the stock exh. manifold with headers.
Chris

[Sean]

yes the headgasket looks fine.

[Versanick]

Hey skiingco. First of all, a header from an a20 works just fine. The DC header that's on this is actually for an 89 prelude Si b20a5, but since it sits at a different angle, the 4-2-1 pipe didn't fit, so a custom pipe had to be made to make it work out. The fitting where it goes into 2 was custom made and piped, from the same material that the header was. Would have been 10 times easier to buy one for an a20 (you can get a pacesetter from anywhere, for under $200 shipped), unless you want a super polished one... I'd just get a black painted header, works fine. They're nice and narrow too (but smoother, better flowing than stock) which is optimal velocity, real high torque... at lower and middle end. At the top end it doesn't duck out either, since I'm running a cat back setup with a thermal exhaust, keeps the velocity fine at high RPM (I have DC anyway). If you're running a normal cat, and just a performance muffler, the DC might be a better choice (like I have) because it has slightly bigger piping and will make it much easier to flow at high RPM, when your cat really restricts it.

If you're getting custom piping made anyway, don't make anything crazy like 3", go for like 2" or so... mine's 2.25" most of the way, 2" at some areas, and is pretty optimal for the motor at any RPM.

Really any header is going to flow just fine... buy for the a20 and work from there. The exhaust sits at the same angle and should bolt right up. I'll do some research on it tonight... so if you're reading this and there's not a follow-up post, you should do research too.

I'm about 100% sure the a20 header will work fine. I know you can find one, either way. Hell, a b16/b18 might be exactly the same too, except for how the pipes bend, I don't know... lemme look into it.

there are headers that work seamlessly though, I promise

[Versanick]

Okay.

For some reason, I can't find a good thread on 3geez anywhere about this.

The exhaust gasket is the same one as what fits the 89 Prelude Si 16V (the b20a5 USDM motor).

The header from that will work fine, as far as the first part that collects right off of the block. After it morphs down to 2 or 1 pipes at the bottom of the block, you run into a problem. The header wants to point straight up underneath the car because the b20a5 motor actually leans toward the driver (back), and our b20a leans toward the radiator a little (forward). When you move that header from back to foward, you get a pipe that, if you extended it, would probably be perfect for running an exhaust right into the interior of the car, which would be pretty cool to freak out your friends with, and kill people with the windows up if you wanted....

umm....

So assuming you don't want that, you'll probably need to get the "2" or "1" part made at a shop. Almost any shop that will bend pipe will help you out with this, just do it at the same place you get the rest of your exhaust done, if you do.

I believe that if you have an 88-89 accord, you'll need 2 oxygen sensors attached... but I'll have to do some research with that. Either way, getting the pipe to fit is a separate issue, so worry about that first.

I'll do some research and come back, unless that's enough of a solution. On the next post, we'll make a thread called "b20a header/exhaust" or "b20a exhaust", for this, if that's cool with you. That way this stuff actually gets posted/read.

peace
paul

[skiingco]

Versanick,

Great info. I have a 86 lude, so I will go with the DC Header for and A20, by the way, excuse my lack of knowledge, but what is the A20? Anyhoo, I guess in worse case, Midas can go flex pipe from the end of the header to mate the exhaust once I have it on. It will be cool rumbling around to Midas when it is installed LOL.

[Versanick]

yeah,

The a20 is the series motor that comes in the 86-89 fuel injected accord. The carb'd ones are the exact same block, head, etc... just different cam... either way, that's what an a20 is, in short. All of the ludes that were SOHC around the same era (I believe your 86 included) is also an a20 motor. It may be a different exact engine code, but the exhaust flange SHOULD be the same.

I'd do some more research on it though, to see that it's the exact exhaust flange match with the accord's a20, to be sure.

I assume, however, that if you have an 86 lude, that they'll make one specifically for the car anyway. I know they do for the 86-89 accord a20.

either way,.... I'm going to do some more research before posting a thread here. It'll be soon, don't worry.

[skiingco]

Versanick,

I actually have had problems finding header info for the B20A I have. When I saw yours, I thought you found someone carrying a header specifically for people like us putting the B20A JDM in. I will get the header for the A20 though and use it.
Chris

[Versanick]

Nono, I was wrong the first time. I forgot that the a20 exhaust flange doesn't fit.

You need the header for another sort of b20. I'm talking to some people here in town, that are going to let me borrow some parts to see if they match my header, since my head is off right now and I can do that sort of thing.

I'll let you know. From my understanding, the a20 one does NOT bolt on. Doesn't fit right.

I forgot that only the intake from the a20 is the same.

-paul

[skiingco]

Oh, I am glad you set me straight. I tell you, getting info for this engine is the worse. I browsed through "Modified" magazine and saw an article on a H22 going into a 86 Civic. A company has developed mounts and shafts for this specific swap. I can't help but think, if they took the time to work with that swap, why they can't look at the few of us trying to get the B20A moving, especially since B16s and B18s are running out. Please let me know how you solve the mystery of the header. I wish I could do some digging on my end, but I am in NC, and there are a handful of guys that did B16 swaps in Civics and CRXs and most other guys have been deployed for over a year. I have ran across ricers who put decals and mufflers on, but still run stock,so they can't help me. I am getting close to where I can order what I need for the bottom end, but once I get the engine back, if I have not found a source for the header, and an alternative to the 3K Ludespeed wants for their Turbo setup, I am going to have to just put the B20A in as is. The increase up from the BT I am running will be a big jump, but I sure would like to add what bolt ons before putting the engine.
Chris

[RobT5580]

Justin did an install for another member and showed pictures of a modified B20A5 header. It needed to be cut and had to relocate the O2 bungs because they were in a bad location. I know the A20A3 downpipe will NOT bolt to a B20A Manifold cause this is what i used for Ludespeed to make my downpipe.

[skiingco]

Paul,

So, did you send a USDM B20A5 header to Ludespeed for them to modify and fit your B20A?
Chris

[Versanick]

Got it done at the local exhaust shop. just had them bend pipe.

they'll set you up, just take it to someplace to custom bend the angle of it, or just make a new 2-part of it (if it's 4-2-1), or even easier if it's 4-1