Aftermarket , B16 , B18 , B18C5 Manifold + Pics + Install Advice + Dyno

[carotman]

I dynoed my B20A today.

It did the same as yours thegreatdane.

135 lbs/tq @3000
145 hp @ 6800

The difference is that my torque curve is completely flat and the HP was still going up at this point butthe ECU just wouldn't let me go higher

I guess I didn't lose too much low end torque with this intake... in fact I GAINED low end torque (which is odd). I got 120 lb/ft at 2250 and like 130 at 2750.

This is with the PK2/PH3 hybrid rom. The camgears were set at 0.

I'm sure that with an obd1 conversion and some dyno tune, I can reach higher numbers.

I can't say I'm not a bit disappointed with the results since I got higher compression and bigger cams/intake but with a stock ECU, what else can you expect. Oh, one more thing, I still got the OEM exhaust on this car.

I'll scan the sheet soon and post it here. These B20A just jave too much torque. No wonder the tires break loose in 1st gear without too much trouble.

[TWOLOUDNPROUD]

Carotman how much for a copy PK2/PH3 hybrid rom ?i have a pk2 ecu ready for a rom.

[carotman]

Well, it's free.

If you want me to burn one and send it to you, it would not be more than 10 bucks I guess (price of the ROM + post fees)

[A20A1]

Isn't the revs on the B16 higher. I mean the stock redline and such.
Id say the manifold is ment to make power in the upper rpm range, since it's diplacement is smaller then ours and has a shorter stroke?

What are the overall dimensions of the plenum and runner lenghts, diameters, etc. compared to the stock manifold.

[TWOLOUDNPROUD]

Well, it's free.
If you want me to burn one and send it to you, it would not be more than 10 bucks I guess (price of the ROM + post fees)

Do you have Pay-pal?

[rjudgey]

Carotman you won't make any good power figures till you ditch the exhaust way too restrictive learnt that lesson years ago. Also you really need to ditch that stock ECU and upgrade to aftermarket or stick webers on!! You should be looking at 160bhp which is JDM spec as a minimum but if your engine has just been built will take a few thousand miles for rings to bed in nicely. Try some camshaft timing as well you could be loosing power there as well. With a good exhuast system made up and ECU you should be good for around 200bhp easy with a bigger TB installed.
B16 may not be so good for A20 as the B20A has bigger valves so can make use of the extra capacity on the plenum and also as it's drawing in more air the bigger ports and shorter runners help the B20A breathe better. Could have reverse effect on a near stock A20 head unless there like mine with a big valve conversion and lots of work on the ports and chambers then B16 one would work better although i still personally prefer ITB's or Webers over Plenum.

[carotman]

Well, I doubt that the 160HP is a real number. I'm sure they overrated it. I mean, even the F20A DOHC in the 4th gen Accord in Japan made less power (150 hp) which is a nonsense.

I agree on the exhaust tough

I need an obd-1 conversion ASAP :lol

[rjudgey]

Early Hondas were actually underated especially when they'e put a few miles under their belt, i've seen stock D16ZC from 86 in MK1 CRX's standard in this country putting down 140bhp after 100k miles (looked after properly) and they were only supposed to be 125bhp. Our B20A's definately put down more than 137bhp as well not had mine Dynoed stock but definately feels more like 150bhp and now with FPR, plugs and CAI i put on feels more like 160bhp easy i think the exhaust is bottlenecking things up at the mo as previous owner had stainless steel exhaust madeup but really cheap job and only in 1.75" piping what a waste!! So a JDM one wiht better cams i could quite easliy believe they were 160bhp or bit more after 60k plus miles. I think the biggest problem with B20A is if they are slighlty abused they go wrong and loose power really quickly, tolerances are really tight on these and theres weakness is the cam bearings sizes that arent great but, with regular servicing with quality synthetic oil thats nice and thin changed every 3-5k miles they should be trouble free. My one is still going strong with over 100k and the previous owner spared no expense on regular servicing as he did it himself every 5k miles with sythetic oil i still get 200 on compression test and pulls really well when it's running pickup is pretty darn quick. But still going to have a re-build done on a spare block as it won't last forever especially with what i have planned for fututre. Still not got my cam gears yet!! Can't wait to have a play with them that and they won't go rusty!!!
But i agree modern Honda engines do seem to be under powered to what they qoute these days which is not usually a Honda Trait? Seen Civic Type R U.K. version suppose to have K20 with 200bhp lucky if they make 180bhp JDM ones i suppose to have 220bhp but i've not seen any of those dynoed wouldn't surprise me if they were only 200bhp. but again maybe they need mileage on them to loosen up a bit. But Honda are really pushing the boundary with NA engines theres only so much you can get out of a 2.0l engine before it becomes a bit wild and undriveable, if they keep expecting to make engines that old Granny's could drive they'll never get really good power out of a N/A they;ll have to turbo and supercharge to keep driveablilty and lot s of power, personally i think they should do something a bit more interesting so that the rest of us who don't mind a car that idles rough, and jerks a bit when driving in town, has a stiff clutch that makes your leg ache after an hour driving could have fun in!! Lets face it Type R's aren't exactly fun to drive they stop, go adn handle nicely but there dull there's no smell of petrol or exhuast, fumes, theres no car biting you in the bum if you cock it up going into a corner to fast, A/C keeping you cool and the P/S stopping your arms from acheing after a session on the track you might still get teh whip lash but thats about it. Main reason i still stick with early Hondas and not bother with Vtec swaps there just that much more fun and unpredictable. lets face it now if you want to go fast and have all your creature comforts you get yourself a modern german Diesel thats what i did got me comfy seats, me loud stereo, A/C ,P/S, traction control, loads of sound proofing so all i here is whoosh as i go by at 150mph on the freeway and my pocket isn't hurting cause the thing does 50mpg and still has 300lbft of torque!!!!
Then when i want a petrol induced headache and have some cash to burn in the tank i take out the Honda at the weekend adn give it a dam good trashing on the strip or the track where it's best at home at.

[thegreatdane]

I dynoed my B20A today.

It did the same as yours thegreatdane.

135 lbs/tq @3000
145 hp @ 6800

The difference is that my torque curve is completely flat and the HP was still going up at this point butthe ECU just wouldn't let me go higher

I guess I didn't lose too much low end torque with this intake... in fact I GAINED low end torque (which is odd). I got 120 lb/ft at 2250 and like 130 at 2750.

This is with the PK2/PH3 hybrid rom. The camgears were set at 0.

I'm sure that with an obd1 conversion and some dyno tune, I can reach higher numbers.

I can't say I'm not a bit disappointed with the results since I got higher compression and bigger cams/intake but with a stock ECU, what else can you expect. Oh, one more thing, I still got the OEM exhaust on this car.

I'll scan the sheet soon and post it here. These B20A just jave too much torque. No wonder the tires break loose in 1st gear without too much trouble.

you just cant kill that low end torque apparantly But the numbers are a bit surprising, would have also thought it to be better with those pistons and cams. Remember when I used the PH3 ecu mine also ran like shit. So getting it professionally dyno tuned and with obd1 might be it.

[Lok]

135 lbs/tq @3000
145 hp @ 6800

Carotman’s Dyno is a lit bit disappoint, from the point of view that stock jdm B20A makes 160hp/6300rpm and 137lbs.ft/5000rpm.

And Carotman’s engine has a hell of mods like P&P head, High C/R etc.

At this point I would like to speak about regrind cams and intake manifold, even if I am not a B20 specialist or tuner.

Here in Greece, years before we used to have regrind cams for VTEC engines B16…..that was 10 years before, when TYPE-R cams or aftermarket where not available.

From Dyno graphs I have seen, looks like Honda engines don’t like regrind cams, but only replacement cams.
Normally will gain 4-5 hp up high then will lose a significant amount of torque-hp in low and mid range (always compared with the stock cams).

But then again if regrind cams tuned properly in the Dyno, can make good power at least up high.

The other problem I had mention in the past, is that Carotman’s Intake manifold is for VTEC engines rev at 10,000rpm, not for B20A engine rev max at 7500rpm-8000rpm.

I have seen many dyno graphs of B20VTEC and until 8500rpm the absolute best performing intake manifold is that of B16A.

I think if somebody planning to keep the stock rev limit of B20A 7000rpm, then can just keep the stock manifold, or just do an extruded hone job in the stock manifold.

If he plans to rev 7500-8000rpm then he can swap the B16A intake manifold and throttle body.

So what I am suggesting for carotman, again without be a tuner or a specialist, just what I have seen is:

1) 2.75 inch custom exhaust with free flow cat.
2) Put on a B16A intake manifold, and sell your current intake manifold.
3) Obd 1 conversion with P75 ECU and bigger injectors.
4) Dyno tuned the cams and the ECU (with wideband).
Don’t forget that Openloop in their SOHC A20 engine they gain 10-11whp up high with their dynotuned (gave advance) regrind cam.

With those mods I think Carotman, could have a proper tuned B20 engine with 210+hp and 160lbs.ft+.

The good point from Carotman’s Dyno is that as he said the hp graph goes always up until the rev limit, and that means that the potential of the engine at the moment maybe is at 170-180hp because probably is dominated to 7500rpm+, and with this ECU is just sleeping.

THE VERY GOOD NEWS, from Carotman’s DYNO is that with this engine ( I think the only difference was the exhaust manifold and the intake manifold) Carotman was able to run 15.6sec at 0-402m ( 0-1/4 mile).

This is absolute FANTASTIC time, for a 2500-2550lbs car with 145hp (about 120-122whp with max power at 6800rpm, 15 inch wheels and P/S) and clearly shows the advantage of B20A on lunch and acceleration with its low and torque.

This engine in the Accord 3Geez if properly tuned, could easily do low 14sec or high 13sec which is very respectable time and easily compared to super fast N/A Civics with newer B18C-R or B20VTEC tuned engines.

[A20A1]

Why do you say 2.75"

I would think 2.5" even 2.25" would be sufficient.

[rjudgey]

I agree 2.75" is overkill only for turbo, 2.25" mandrel bent is good for 250bhp, it's his exhaust manifold and system thats holding the engin back mine used to only produce 160bhp with stock 1,75" piping then put on 2.25" and shot upto 180bhp in an instant!!
Carotmans, biggest hurdle is Exhaust and ECU they need to both be binned and replaced ASAP, then with some cam timing and some tinkeing on rolling road should be easily hitting around 200bhp, maybe look at Focus racing inlet manifold for B18 that would be better than B16 inlet manifold, longer runners and straight with nice big plenum for big TB to go onto as well. Or go with some ITB's with a B18 inlet manifold for Webers or ITB's or just run webers instead and you won't have to worry about ECU!! New fuel pump, carb regulator two weber 45's flat blade screwdriver some new jets ( i can suggest a good setup to use) job done.

[A20A1]

I merged the three graphs you posted to get a clearer view of the changes.

[carotman]

Hmmm, I'll try to get a scan of my dyno run.

However, I have GREAT news... I mean awesome news.

The Dyno that I went on is a Dynapack. These dynos are known for constant readings but "inaccurate" numbers. They usually give much lower readings than other dynos. These are excellent for tuning since they will almost give the same readings run after run after run... It's just not the "real" power readings.

I compared my graph with a JDM ITR from that SAME dyno and I'm at 8HP from that JDM ITR. The ITR did 153 hp on this dyno and I did 145.

Here's the stock ITR graph on 91 octane.




I'll try to get the graph from my B20A....

[Lok]

Dynopack reads horsepower at wheel hubs, those reads lower numbers than a Dyno which gives flywheel horsepower.
Meanwhile Dynopack gives higher numbers than Mustag and Dynojet who reads horsepower at the wheels.
For my experience Dynojet reads 10-11 horsepower less than Dynopack.
Also when you see a graph at Dynopack always check if the correction factor is 1:00
Otherwise if the correction factor is 1.5 then the reading suppose to be at flywheel ( 15% looses) but in the reality is a totally crap reading, just the customer to leave the Dyno happy…..
Now in the case of Carotman’s Dyno JDM ITR normally is 163-165whp at Dynojet and 175 at Dynopack..
Don’t forget that JDM ITR is rated from Honda at 195 flywheel horsepower with 91oct or 200hp with Japanese high oct fuel.
But in Carotman’s Dynopack we see 153 hp which is very-very-very low reading for a jdm ITR in Dynopack.
This happens probably because of the initial setting and calibration of the Dynopack from the operator.
Then these are really nice numbers and Carotman’s Accord must be rated at 185-190 flywheel hp and a lot of torque even with the restricted exhaust and the stock ECU!!!!!which is superb!!!!
But then again 15.6sec for 0-402m (0-1/4 mile) for a 2500lbs car with that engine is simply a good time and nothing more.
EDM ITR with 190hp 15 inch wheels , LSD and 2400lbs weight makes 14.9sec the 0-1/4mile with two persons on board.

[carotman]

well, my 15.6 time can be lowered. I had extreme wheel hop and a stock Accord pulled 1 car length in front of me in 1st gear. I beleive I could acheive times closer to a stock ITR.

[thegreatdane]

free horsepower for you

[Lok]

Well, I am sure that you can lower your time.

EDM ITR 190hp stock can make 14.6-15 sec the 0-1/4 mile with one person.

Greek Automotive magazine ( one of the best in Europe and oldest 36 years old ) '4 wheels' had measure the EDM ITR ( with racing driver) 15.2sec the 0-1/4mile with two persons on board and with 205/50 tires ( stock 195/55) similar with what you had use during your drag race.

So YES, you can have practically the same time, especially if you had an LSD and 50kg less Weight.
So your engine must be at the same potential or slightly stronger from an ITR.

I just thought that one B20 tuned on a Accord 3Geez can outperform a stock ITR easily, but looks like they have equal performance....B20 has the advantage of torque and B18C-R the advantage of shorter gear ratio....

Anyway well done again, your car and its performance is superb!!!hope one day I'll have one Accord 3Geez with 200hp N/A as well....

[FyreDaug]

looks good, too bad your power is soo high up, but atleast your torque is at a drivable rpm

[Listen2myBASS]

If I install a B16 IM, will it restrict me from putting on a strut bar?

[AccordEpicenter]

no

[MessyHonda]

should fit fine....look at this b16 mani with strut bar

[Listen2myBASS]

i seen that and thats where the question arose because some1 said they were gonna get an edelbrock so they can put there strut bar in b/c the stock b16 one wouldnt let them?

[MessyHonda]

i seen that and thats where the question arose because some1 said they were gonna get an edelbrock so they can put there strut bar in b/c the stock b16 one wouldnt let them?

what sturt bar do you have?...i have the one on the pic a DC one...but the one justin makes looks like it gives a bit more clearence....i was reading the thread and the guy said he had a b16a2 intake mani...i would talk to Gio to see wut type of mani he is selling.

[Listen2myBASS]

well if justin holds it for me, it'll be one of his strut bars, which is good since its more clearance...ill have to talk to gio when he gets back to me with shipping figures...