gapless rings and turbo: good or bad idea?

[Accordtheory]

I haven't done shit for research on this yet, but want to use total seal rings on my new A20 short block that I am building for my accord. I plan on subjecting this engine to some serious abuse, although it will not encounter any detonation. Supposedly the total seal rings have a leakdown percentage of 1-2%, compared to like 8% for conventional rings. So they would obviously produce more power and have less blow-by, but can they handle a turbo? They seem to be more fragile by design, but if I avoid detonation, will they be able to survive in the mid to high 300 hp range? When I start doing my research, I am still going to find out if anyone is using them on turbo eclipses. (A lot of my turbosystem is based on upgrades for the eclipse, coincidentally) If any of you guys have used total seal rings on a turbo engine, please let me know what your experiences were...

[k-roy]

Send a private message to sean. he is the man to talk turbos with around here

[Justin86]

I can't remember but I'm thinking that under boost you don't want little ring gap. From all the extra pressure and heat it is not good.

[2old_honda]

I have heard the total seal rings are not very good. Look into Hastings rings. I know they have a application for the a20.

[PhydeauX]

Some people love those things, alot of people hate them. Rumor has it the breakin requires mineral oil mixed with the blood of a goat freshly sacrificed under the harvest moon. You shound't have any problems with genuine honda rings with or with out a turbo.

andy

[Mike's89AccordLX]

I have heard great things about the gapless rings but you have to follow the instructions or they will be crap. My instructor had them in his car and it was awesome but he didnt have them on a turbo though. And you cannot oil them when you put them in b/c they won't work right. And you have to have the cylinder walls honed with a specific degree angle.

[AccordEpicenter]

gapless rings are generally a no-no with forced induction cars. They require alot more gap than regular NA cars

[guaynabo89]

Originally posted by AccordEpicenter
gapless rings are generally a no-no with forced induction cars. They require alot more gap than regular NA cars

yup

[zero.counter]

Thinking on piston ring gaps has also changed. In the old days, second ring gap specs were tighter than those for top rings because they didn’t see as much heat. But this didn’t account for inter-ring gas-pressure buildup between the top and second rings. If the pressure between these rings equals or exceeds the pressure above the top ring, it can cause the top ring to lift off the bottom of the piston ring groove and lose contact with the sealing surfaces. It also inhibits the ring’s ability to transfer heat from the piston. To keep inter-ring pressure from becoming a problem, the current trend is to create an easy escape path for the built-up pressure by gapping the second ring larger than the top ring. Another benefit is that because gas pressure is now directed downward towards the sump, any oil that has collected in the ring pack areas will go with it.

Of course, normal ring wear causes the gaps to open up, allowing more combustion gases to escape. At least one ring manufacturer—Total Seal—offers gapless rings. Traditionally, these gapless rings went in the second groove along with a conventional top ring, but ring technology refinements plus the new thinking on ring sealing has led Total Seal to revise this installation scheme and introduce a new line of gapless top rings that achieve significantly less blow-by under real-world running conditions.

Tests conducted by an independent dyno shop showed the Total Seal Gapless 2nd Ring set and Gapless Top Ring set delivers significant net increases in both horsepower and torque over conventional rings as long as they are matched with the correct pistons.

I forgot to say, yes they can be used with turbos and have been consistently.

Here is some more info on the technology if you are interested.

[AccordEpicenter]

yea ive heard great stuff about honda rings and ive heard cheap rings=nightmares. Ill have to see what those diamond forgings are using...

[NXRacer]

Sean has nothing good to say about gapless rings. if you're planning on boosting a good amount of boost

LOOK IN MY SIGNATURE

[Justin86]

Originally posted by NXRacer
Sean has nothing good to say about gapless rings. if you're planning on boosting a good amount of boost

LOOK IN MY SIGNATURE

The rings might be ok for low boost but when you get 20, 30PSI I'm going to stick with what I have allways been told..... GAPS.

[Sean]

gapless rings invite ring butting which will destroy your pistons and block. the problem is thermal expsansion. typically a ring gap in a 3.5 inch bore yad yada will be around 20 thousands. yes opening the second ring gap actualy works better at reliving flutter and improving cylinder sealing then say using total seal gapless rings. plus the gapless rings are nearly as durable and they offer to little room for thermal expansion.

BAD situation.

[Justin86]

Turbo=HEAT+ring expansion=ka boooooom!!!!

[POS carb]

mid to upper 300 hp? I think you need to worry about your tranny sealing in all the gears when it blows up :lol

[Justin86]

Originally posted by POS carb
mid to upper 300 hp? I think you need to worry about your tranny sealing in all the gears when it blows up :lol

Shit I had that problem with only around 120hp

[zero.counter]

Originally posted by Sean
gapless rings invite ring butting which will destroy your pistons and block. the problem is thermal expsansion. typically a ring gap in a 3.5 inch bore yad yada will be around 20 thousands. yes opening the second ring gap actualy works better at reliving flutter and improving cylinder sealing then say using total seal gapless rings. plus the gapless rings are nearly as durable and they offer to little room for thermal expansion.

BAD situation.

Well, at least it is an opinion and not a proven fact...

And the fact would be, that ALL, not some, or a few, or "my personal experience shows that...", turbo setups utilizing the gapless rings are not bad for you.

[Justin86]

Originally posted by zero.counter
Well, at least it is an opinion and not a proven fact...

And the fact would be, that ALL, not some, or a few, or "my personal experience shows that...", turbo setups utilizing the gapless rings are not bad for you.

Well how much boost were you running with the gap less rings?

[Sean]

run an engine with gapless rings a bit hot sometime and youll see just how much trouble you can get into. im not saying there totally bad but i dont and wont use them in any engine building i do for forced induction. ive used them on blown bbc v8 boat engines and they dont last long when running at extended period under boost.

[wprocomp]

hey sean how is the accord coming...havent heard anything in awhile

[Justin86]

Originally posted by Sean
run an engine with gapless rings a bit hot sometime and youll see just how much trouble you can get into. im not saying there totally bad but i dont and wont use them in any engine building i do for forced induction. ive used them on blown bbc v8 boat engines and they dont last long when running at extended period under boost.

Yea that sounds right. I would use them for an all motor build up but under boost especialy high boost, I know the high heat will get to them.

[zero.counter]

Originally posted by Sean
im not saying there totally bad but i dont and wont use them in any engine building i do for forced induction.

Now that is an open-minded post. Sean, I knew you knew your shit!