cheapest way to make the car zoom???

[bobafett]

i have checked out all the engine swap threads.. and i am wondering this:

from start to finish, which swap, or strategy would be the most economical? i want to get an idea of the cheapest way that would still be worth it, and i want it to be a quality job... if i cant find anything that i think will work, then i guess i will have to just try to make the boring stock engine work... heheh

i am assuming that throwing a turbo on our engines wouldnt even come close to a b18 swap power wise....

lmk, and if the answer is "search" then please dont post, i just want some opinions....

from what i read, the b18 swap is easy, but i thought a b16 swap was as well.. but maybe i am not reading it all correctly... it is late after all...

[carotman]

am assuming that throwing a turbo on our engines wouldnt even come close to a b18 swap power wise

You're right, it will fo far beyond the B18 swap

A20A Turbo

Anyway, swaps are cool too but you need to get special engine mounts..

[1988starter]

Yea I would bet on justins car vs a b18.

[88LXi68]

well what if that b18 was turbo???? :flipa:

[1988starter]

it would still have to be a damn good turbo anlong with about 7 grand to do all the word he wants cheap.

[88LXi68]

yea and it would take just as much money to prep our engine for it. Most of our engines have HIGH miles, so they would have to be rebuilt then if your doing that you might as well get internals better suited for turbos. The b18a has kits and can be safely run at 7PSI. Either way it gets expensive.

[88turboaccord]

Everyone down to the A20A3 Turbo----oh wait thats me!!!!:super: I have raced other turbo acuras and hondas, I even raced a supercharged maxima---Beat them all, nothing can compete with the awsome power of the 2.0L cast iron block of the 3rd gen accord---well eccept for the hole in the wallet...

Naaa seriously, the 2.0L is a good motor, a B18 is nice because they make parts for it, and it is usually cheaper...

[DarknessRS]

Well here are some figures:

I can get my hands on a B18C (the Type R engine) for about $3500 - $4000 around here.

Then there's the engine mounts for about $500- $600 (I can't quite remember)

And if you aren't doing this yourself, you've got a big labor charge and I don't know what price to put on that.

Turbo the B18, and thats an addtional $3500.

So all of that, excluding labor, is $7500-$8100.

I'm not sure how fast that would get, but I know that the B18C can produce 1/4 mile times no faster than 14-15 seconds inside of a civic.

If you're on a budget, the cheapest swap would be the B20 from our Japanese Accord counterpart. You can probably get your hands on one for about $1500 and it requires no mounts.

The problem with this swap is that there is even less aftermarket for it, and just the regular parts are hard to come by.

[bobafett]

hmm, i see your points..

sounds like a turbo on our engines would be good, or a swap with the equivilent engine, since it would be cheap

the b18 is temtping, just since it has such a huge aftermarket support...

i dont want a 10 second car by any means... i just want something quick that can fry most other "quick" cars like riced out civics... lol

justin you turbo'ed your stock engine? how much did that set you back, i assumed it wouldnt be worth it, but you seem happy.

if turboing my existing engine (rebuilding it first) is gonna get me a worthwhile power gain, i may go that route//


OK new question, which mods can i do now, that wouldnt be affected if i added a turbo or a new engine?? would one set of headers work for both engines??? i want to make sure i dont have to re buy all my stuff!! hehe

[MoonScryer]

Justins engine is far from stock; It runs on Crower rods and JE pistons. He also had to custom make the manifold. I think he got to about 7psi before it blew the landings on the rings.

Most people who think about dropping a b18 in and all that fail to consider one thing: they don't run high boost either. You put 10 psi on a b18, and it'll blow itself up in short order as much as an A20.

If you were to swap in the B18, and turbo it, you forgot some other expenses. You also need axles, various shift linkages, etc. The whole swap kit from PRI is $2000. Mounts are just one part of it.

So you are at about $10,000 to do it right. You are still on a stock b18 though.

Now, consider this. You have an A20, which is .2liters bigger than an b18. Also, it's a cast iron block; b18's and all are aluminum; a nice solid foundation, given most b18 turbo's of high PSI put iron sleeves in anyway. If you rebuild the A20 with Crower rods and Wiseco pistons - or whoever - You have just spend $1300 on the top side. Figure have the block checked and the crank balanced - maybe $1000?

As far as head work, don't bother; you are going to force feed the bloody thing air, it's not a naturally aspirated engine, so it won't matter. At best, have things port matched and smoothed down a bit do help, but don't go overboard. $400.

Now, You have just gotten your engine up to a nice strong contender, you need to get the plumbing done. You are going to need a turbo manifold. This would best be built out of iron, or some high carbon metals. You can usually get one built for around $400-$500, depending on complexity and metal used. You can have even length runners made and all that if you want.

You are going to need a turbo. T3 produces nice power, depending on spline and what not. $400.

OK, big parts are done. Now, you have to consider plumbing for the pipes. Go to a good pipe bender, mandrel style. Wrap it in some heat tape. I don't know how much this will cost. Justin?

Intercooler? Go Spearco, don't go less. $1000.

Figure fuel pump / injector / and various other upgrades will run about $500. You can live with the existing fuel rail. Also, figure on the cheap, pick yourself up a used Blitz turbo timer, maybe an Apexi AFC to control the fuel where the A20 ECU will fall short. $1000

The engine will fit in the car, no special mounts needed, and everything will bolt up. Exhaust - go 3" - should run you about $400-$500 for cheap; go expensive if you want.
So we have a 1987 Accord with a 8.5:1 compressed, forged rods/pistons, T3 turbo equipped car.

You got a fast car here for about $6000. You can trim it down in a few places, maybe go a little cheap on the exhaust - straight pipe it made by a country boy for $150 - or something, but you get the ballpark you are playing in.

Downside: you will blow up transmissons, and if you launch directly off the line, you will spin axles. I think Justin is on his 4th tranny in the car. You can try to find a company to build you a high strength tranny, but it won't be cheap. Maybe Openloop Motorsports possibly has some solid leads on stuff, given their work in the tranny dept on their 89 and 87 Accords. As to the axles, there are custom outfits that make some pretty good setups. Pick up Super Street, Sport Compact Car, or Import Tuner, and look in the back at the little ads.

Also, your maintnence level just went up; get used to it.

If you do the above, you can safely run 1bar (15psi) all day and not have a problem in the world, due to making an engine that you are not running anywhere near top boost levels. Justin ran something similar, at 23psi or thereabouts, and made some 300 horsepower. You can daily drive 15 psi, and it won't blow up on you.

IN the future, you might consider a custom ECU setup ($1000-$1500), etc.

The above is an all out motor setup made for high boost and will blow away 80% of the cars you will come up against racing on Friday nights at the import spots.

This all does not count labor, as well. If you are going to have this done, do it all yourself, or at least be there when they do it asking questions, so you know what goes in your own car. If you are just going to blank check it, why are you doing it to a 3rd gen Accord?

Now, you can setup smaller than this. Be realistic, go for say 8-9 psi, you only need good forged pistons, modest turbo setup, and the manifold, good inline fual pump. If you don't go beyond that, the motor will have a nice life, and you should be able to do it for half the above.

Simple huh?

Course, hey, I could be wrong.

[bobafett]

WOW! thanks for that post. it helped out a lot...

i see all the trouble and cost involved in making this car a turbo...

i want to start slow with this project, so what do you reccomend for starting out mods, that will still be useful in the future. like i posted earlier, i dont want my mods to become useless if i add certain parts.... what are some little things i can do to get started before i figure out what i want to do with this car???

[MoonScryer]

Intake, cam regrind, header, 2.25" exhaust to a nice muffler; straight pipe the cat if you want. That is a nice gain in breathing.

[bobafett]

ok, now those sound like good projects to tackle this summer!!! heheh

someone should write up a staged upgrade guide... i would be happy to do one if i knew what the hell i was doing.

i will find a link to the type of article i am talking about, but i am sure some of you guys could write an awesome one!

[88LXiHB]

Yeah, all I have is I/H/E, and Iswear my car is 10x's faster....

in all reality though I'd like to think I got 7-10 hp out of it all...

[DarknessRS]

Originally posted by bobafett
i just want something quick that can fry most other "quick" cars like riced out civics...
OK new question, which mods can i do now, that wouldnt be affected if i added a turbo or a new engine?? would one set of headers work for both engines??? i want to make sure i dont have to re buy all my stuff!! hehe

Your A20 wont be able to stand up to a newer Civic Si unless you put a bit of work into it, but the A20 with a couple of bolt ons might be able to stay with the older Civic Si hatchbacks (EG6: the 93-95 kind). There are also plenty of 'ricey' looking civics that are just DX models underneath. Those SOHC non-VTECs shoudn't be a problem.

The only component that you could carry over from one engine to another is anything that you add to the exhaust. Which means you'd need a new header for a new engine, and even a new header if you want to add a turbo.

[bobafett]

ahh, well thanks for that info...
after thinking about it, i dont think i will do an engine swap... it is just not worth the money, since i could buy a nice car that would beat its ass already (94 eclipse gsx for example!)....
however i may want to add a turbo eventually, after i do a bunch of other smaller steps...

you say i would need to change everything except the exhaust stuff if i put in a new engine, what about if i just added a turbo?

from all the posts i have read, it seems pretty spendy to drop a turbo in there...and i think i should get everything else out of the way first... BUT if i were to start upgrading, keeping a turbo on the horizon as a possiblilty, what steps should i take?? pretty much the same? maybe wait on the headers... i am not sure...

[88LXi68]

Ok...since MoonScryer gave the costs about a turbo A20 here are the costs of a swap which are not that much that you think they are.

First, forget the b18c1 or b18c5, these engines just make the swap that much more expensive. So basically stick with the b16a1, b17a1, b18a1, b18b1, or the b20b/z. The best bang for the buck here are the b16a1 and b18a1 or b18b1. These engines are EASY to find and parts readily available. So your looking at lets say $1200 at the most for engine, tranny, ecu, and wire harness.

Second, the swap materials needed. The MAIN things needed to make this swap are the mounts (650), axles (400both), and shifter rod (150). Thats another $1200. Now optional stuff that you could use are a throttle cable adapter (15), P/S adapter bracket (80), and an A/C adapter bracket (80).

Third, installation costs. Do it yourself it costs nothing but demands TIME. Take it to a place it costs money.

Total cost: lets say $2500 So for 2500 you have improved overall performance and also have aftermarket support. Crower makes cams which can give a DYNO PRUVEN 12-15hp, there are cam gears available, the DC headers are MUCH larger than what the A20 ones look like and then you can add a turbo kit. Granted you are right Moon, that over 10psi is too much, but you can run 7psi safely. One bad thing I did find out is that you cant run a JRSC or any supercharger like that. This is because the master cylinder is in the way and then you would have to cut into the srut tower and re-align your suspension up. They said it is more work than its worth. So basically if you want a supercharger you would need a Vortech style one.

Overall both methods ARE not cheap. I just feel that going with a B-series swap allows for greater potential, but with the right amount of $$$$ anything can be done.

[Vega88lxi]

When I get another accord Id love to do a JDM B20a. With the torque you'll blow all those Civics and Tegs of the line.

[MoonScryer]

Well, that $10,000 figure was for a b18 swap with a turbo, and the complete PRI kit. It was built off the figure DarknessRS came up with, but he left out certain things.

You are right on the b16a swap, it is the best bang for the buck for our cars. If you don't mind losing your power steering and whatnot, and do it yourself, the B16a swap shouldn't be more than $3000 on the outside.

As to the JRSC, yes it will fit. The 99 Preludes have the same problem; belt would cut into something to bring it inline with the other drive belts. What they did was shorten the shaft, and put an adapter thing with it's own belt, and it brings the pulley for the supercharger closer to the block. Would it be worth it? Well, given the cost of the JSRC, and the cost of the swap, it comes down to what you want to do. Since Vortech makes a kit for the B16A though, I'd think about going with it; cheaper parts that FIT, and little custom work needed.

Two scenarios to think on:

1) turbo'ed moster A20 - can be driven daily, but your maint level goes up. Fun on the pedal.

2) supercharged B16A - modest boost levels, nice power curve, wonderful acceleration. Maint level near normal, driveable. Boost not always there thanks to a bypass valve on it.

If you want more power in the future though from the supercharger, it will require doing some serious crap on the blower (Endyn Energy Dynamics knows their stuff on this http://www.theoldone.com)

Hey, I could be wrong

[A20A1]

http://www.theoldone.com/

Thats actually a really good link for everyone else to see... I've gotten a lot off info from their site in the past.

[pric]

Originally posted by bobafett
i have checked out all the engine swap threads.. and i am wondering this:

from start to finish, which swap, or strategy would be the most economical? i want to get an idea of the cheapest way that would still be worth it, and i want it to be a quality job... if i cant find anything that i think will work, then i guess i will have to just try to make the boring stock engine work... heheh

i am assuming that throwing a turbo on our engines wouldnt even come close to a b18 swap power wise....

lmk, and if the answer is "search" then please dont post, i just want some opinions....

from what i read, the b18 swap is easy, but i thought a b16 swap was as well.. but maybe i am not reading it all correctly... it is late after all...

Cheapest way to make the car go zoom is N2O best bang for the buck hands down. N2O if done correctly puts no more stress on the motor than any turbo or supercharger. Plus it only puts that stress on the motor when you use it not like a turbo where it's all the time. dhcarss has I/H/E with a 65 shot on the stock A20 and is running high 14's on streest tires and spinning bad. That will beat 95% of all civics. I'm not 100% on the cost but I do believe he only paid $280 for the header and exhaust. He made his CAI I think he paid $35 for the filter and he got the ZEX kit of E-bay for like $300. So for less than $700 his honda is running 14's you'll pay that much for mounts for a B-series motor.

[toastyghost]

roll it off a cliff

[89AccordLvr]

I'm planning on droppin in a B16a1 but should i custom turbo it or supercharger and in your opinion why did you choose one over the other.

[3G Jester]

ooo b20...just gotta find a wrecked CR-V. good engine though.

didnt Honda tuner just queeze some disgusting amount of Hp out of one of those? like 300 or somthing?

i I COULD BE WRONG. could be IT....could be HT....and it might not have been 300 hp....but i do remeber a nice article...

[bobafett]

this thread is old hehhe. my plan to make the car zoom is turbo built a20a3!