weber on JDM B20a

[SimonT]

"Mike" Are you in Washington State or DC, would you care to share your experiences with me offline a I'm doing a B20a Conversion also??

Civvy, Going to be back in the Uk soon. Where do you source your parts from?? as I'm sure I'll be picking up lots of stuff for my B20a Conversion

Ok, I admit I'm a bit of a dense when it comes to Carbs.

When you guys talk about a duel Webber is that physically a single Carb or two units bolted together???

I have a stock 89 DX that I'm hoping to upgrade with an Auto JPN B20a engine from B20aTurbo.

General consensus is that the EFI upgrade is only for masochists.

Slammedaccord has a Weber (assume its a 32-36 whatever that means) I'm hoping to get from him minus the adaptor plate. Is this all I need + the plate and the Auto cable Fix?? Do I need to buy two of them or is there another model called a "dual or Twin" that I need to buy instead.

Ok, You may all laught now.

Thanks,
Simon

[Civvy]

A Weber DGV 32/36 sounds a bit stock for your idea's! (since there was a mention of a turbo in thur) If i were u i'd go for the 38/38 its more for the modified or modified to be motor! and uses the same adapter plate from piercemanifolds.

The Weber DCOE 40 - 45 carb is a sidedraught carb, unlike the DGV being downdraught like ure standard carb. (I prefer the sidedraught because i find i have more idea's on how to get cold air to them)!
anyways, The DCOE's are basicly like having 4 carbs on your engine.
A DCOE carb is literaly two carbs in one. That is why it is called a twin!
On our cars we use a custom manifold and mount a pair of twin Webers =
(4 Carbs).
This modification seriously increases air and fuel flow.
The more air we get into an engine the more power we can get out from it!
The other advantage of the Weber conversion is it is actually so cheap in comparison to Fuel injection to build to a race specification.
I get my parts from junkyards nationwide. I am from the north-east where my family still live i lived in the north-west last year i'm currently living in Wales (south-west) and have a friend in London has the same interest. so i'm good for parts! exept air conditioning, bring me a Evaporater over in your suitcase :rofl:
Hope that helps

Civvy

[ET2]

"Mike" Are you in Washington State or DC, would you care to share your experiences with me offline a I'm doing a B20a Conversion also??

Civvy, Going to be back in the Uk soon. Where do you source your parts from?? as I'm sure I'll be picking up lots of stuff for my B20a Conversion

Ok, I admit I'm a bit of a dense when it comes to Carbs.

When you guys talk about a duel Webber is that physically a single Carb or two units bolted together???

I have a stock 89 DX that I'm hoping to upgrade with an Auto JPN B20a engine from B20aTurbo.

General consensus is that the EFI upgrade is only for masochists.

Slammedaccord has a Weber (assume its a 32-36 whatever that means) I'm hoping to get from him minus the adaptor plate. Is this all I need + the plate and the Auto cable Fix?? Do I need to buy two of them or is there another model called a "dual or Twin" that I need to buy instead.

Ok, You may all laught now.

Thanks,
Simon

[mykwikcoupe]

hey simon, Im in washington state. Its a little far to drive to say "hey" but If you want to chat no problem. I got one of my mnotors from b20aturbo. Hes a smart guy and has treated me awful nice. Tell him I said high hell know me. I bought all his turbo gear for the JDM B20a.

As far as the weber conversion to the B20a I havent finished yet as funds havent allowed. If yopu have any questions feel free to PM me or send me an email. [email protected]. Make sure to say something about accords/cars/. Mike

[carotman]

Anyone knows what is the Euro B20A Compression ratio?

[thegreatdane]

Anyone knows what is the Euro B20A Compression ratio?

According to the Honda manual the compression ratio of the B20A2 is 9,5:1.
What is the ratio on the JDM B20A?

[L3G10N]

B20a Jdm 9.4:1

[mykwikcoupe]

do carot brought up theoption of swapping the b18 dual carb manifold onto a jdm b20a with the b18 head also. Is this a possibility or just a pipe dream for a drunk car dude. Yes dude Im literally on my 28th henries and counting. Trying for my recordf. Its taken me 12 minutes to type this so be easy. Crap Im rambling. Crap Im typing what im talking. sorry dudes

[Versanick]

A test at the race shop revealed that it is around 9.5 for the JDM version... I'm assuming 9.5, as it seems familiar and is the same compression of sister engines...

Where can I get a manifold for dual DCOE 45's... if it is in fact 4 carbs (2 in 1 each?) then can I use the same manifold and application plate and all of that as the 32/36 DGEV? I've been searching all around and can't figure it out.

And would it be best to take a Tig welder and actually make my own manifold, as far as flow and such? Or does the stock a20a carb manifold flow a whole lot (but just doesn't have the carb to flow it all?)

Thanks in advance for info....
peace

[L3G10N]

mykwikcoupe : nah carot don't take this option. I took it. this will be the difference between his b20a and mine. cause we have the same project in the same club accord quebec :p You don't have to put a b18 head on the b20a since the b18 manifold bolt pattern will fit on the b20a with minor modification.

Versanick: Best thing about putting dual DCOE or DCOM is to find a b18 dual carb manifold. But if you're unable to find one like my, take any a20a intake and weld a weber manifold(the parts where you bolt the weber. Do a port/polished and you're in business.

Putting a dual weber on your engine is 2 carburator, not 4 as you wrote. It's one carburator per 2 cylinders. you can even take the same a20a manifold, cut it and put 4 cbr600 carburator on if you want to get 4 carburator. But trust me, it will be REALLY hard to correctly configure all this thing.

[carotman]

Which B18A are you guys talking about.

I brought up the idea of using a 1st gen B20A shortblock with a 1st gen B18A head (the one that came on the Accord/Vigor) Those engines are already dual carbed but their intake manifold seems to be different from any other honda engine.

Yes this would work but you would be basicaly stuck with those stock carbs. I don't know if they are the same as other Honda carbs... didn't check and don't have time.

You can use any other later "standard" B series dual carb manifold on your B20A and re-drill the holes to match the A20A/1st gen B20A intake setup.

[Versanick]

The Weber DCOE 40 - 45 carb is a sidedraught carb, unlike the DGV being downdraught like ure standard carb. (I prefer the sidedraught because i find i have more idea's on how to get cold air to them)!
anyways, The DCOE's are basicly like having 4 carbs on your engine.
A DCOE carb is literaly two carbs in one. That is why it is called a twin!
On our cars we use a custom manifold and mount a pair of twin Webers =
(4 Carbs).

Civvy seems to think that the DCOE setup is like having 4 carbs, as in being two in one... Should I find someplace to get a custom manifold, or is a port and polished a20a manifold really going to flow like I need? And also, should I try to match the porting of the end of the manifold and flange with my head port? I have a GUDE ported head and such, and I'm assuming that it's more effient and better flowing if I match the porting of the a20a manifold with the head port.

I also am having trouble finding where to buy the conversion plate and setup. Can I buy all the parts for the Weber 32/36 carbeurator conversion setup, but instead buy two 45 DCOE carbs and use it like that? Or does it not even work the same, being sidedraft instead of downdraft?

And is it _like_ having 4 carbs, or is it in fact just like only having 2 carbs, and Civvy's just really confusing me?

I've seen insane amounts of power coming from carb'd honda motors. There is a guy that does local circle track stuff that makes 322whp with his carb'd zc motor using weber carbs (revving to over 10,000rpm) and I would be happy with (nowhere near that kind of power).. I got hypereutectic pistons and they are coated (to eliminate the problem of piston speed at high rpm) and plan to rev to around 8500rpm...

dual 45DCOE carbs, I assume, with a good manifold, will be quite sufficient to make a lot of power? Bigger fuel injectors are expensive, computer upgrading is expensive, it's hard for me to convert to obd1, and setting it all up is a mess with fuel injection.... And there doesn't seem to be a huge power advantage over carb, unless a lot of money is spent.

Thanks for your help so far, fellas, it's really appreciated...
peace
paul

[Gregg86DX]

Civvy seems to think that the DCOE setup is like having 4 carbs, as in being two in one... Should I find someplace to get a custom manifold, or is a port and polished a20a manifold really going to flow like I need? And also, should I try to match the porting of the end of the manifold and flange with my head port? I have a GUDE ported head and such, and I'm assuming that it's more effient and better flowing if I match the porting of the a20a manifold with the head port.

I also am having trouble finding where to buy the conversion plate and setup. Can I buy all the parts for the Weber 32/36 carbeurator conversion setup, but instead buy two 45 DCOE carbs and use it like that? Or does it not even work the same, being sidedraft instead of downdraft?

And is it _like_ having 4 carbs, or is it in fact just like only having 2 carbs, and Civvy's just really confusing me?

I've seen insane amounts of power coming from carb'd honda motors. There is a guy that does local circle track stuff that makes 322whp with his carb'd zc motor using weber carbs (revving to over 10,000rpm) and I would be happy with (nowhere near that kind of power).. I got hypereutectic pistons and they are coated (to eliminate the problem of piston speed at high rpm) and plan to rev to around 8500rpm...

dual 45DCOE carbs, I assume, with a good manifold, will be quite sufficient to make a lot of power? Bigger fuel injectors are expensive, computer upgrading is expensive, it's hard for me to convert to obd1, and setting it all up is a mess with fuel injection.... And there doesn't seem to be a huge power advantage over carb, unless a lot of money is spent.

Thanks for your help so far, fellas, it's really appreciated...
peace
paul

there seems to be some confusion regarding the style of Weber carbs you are talking about. The DGV series and DCOE series are completely different types of carbs. Nothing about setting them up will be the same except the gas! The 32/36 is a typical 2 barrel, progressive downdraft carb, very similar to the stock Honda carb. It adapts to the stock Honda manifold with a plate and retains many of the normal engine controls like choke, EGR and other vacuum controls. The DCOE's are sidedraft, 2 barrel, non-progressive and designed to essentially have one barrel devoted to each cylinder. They need a custom manifold and won't support most stock engine controls. They can be hard to tune and maintain, but when they work right, they can be very smooth and powerful.

You're going to want to spend some time getting educated on these things before making any decisions. Both setups can work well, but they are totally different beasts. And don't count out Fuel Injection. Converting to OBD1 is not hard with a B20A and if you really need bigger injectors, DSM 450cc injectors are cheap and easy to find. A full twin DCOE setup is going to cost a lot more than a decent FI setup.

Gregg

[ET2]

Dual side draft carb setup dcoe 45's

[Versanick]

Wow, et2.

My cost with my fuel injection is that I need a bigger pump, FPR, obd1 conversion, throttle body, intake manifold, and injectors. On a real lucky run, I'd wind up paying $800 for all of that.

If a carb setup costs even that much, I'd be happy to set it up. ET2, who in the world made that manifold.... and where can I meet them and when??!!

Or if you know someone who can make that, how much would they charge?! That's completely beautiful. I want.

(thanks for input gregg..._

peace
paul

[Versanick]

Okay, on carbs.net the weber conversion for dual 45 DCOEs with manifold and everything (entire kit) runs around $1500. FIFTEEN HUNDRED DOLLARS??!~! are these people insane?

Wow. You can set up a home-made turbo with that kind of money. I'm appalled.

If that's what everything's going to cost anyway, fuel injection MIGHT be the way to go. A single 45mm DCOE carb from carbs.net costs just over $500 alone.. and if I can find a mani for $300, then I'm not doing as bad as I thought. Cables and everything else are minor (as well as vacuum stuff I can tap and do and such...)

One guy said that they custom made him a manifold for his dual DCOE 45's, and it costed about $250, but they'd charge a little more, as some extra work went into it. He gave them an a20 manifold, the aluminum pieces, and the plate or whatever where the carbs attach, so that they could put it together (essentially meaning he gave them the materials and it will cost them under $300 to make it altogether)...

Should I look on ebay for DCOE 45mm sidedraft carbs and parts for them, or should I find someplace to buy them new? I don't know what all I have to buy other than what comes in a complete carbeurator.. I just wish the entire conversion kit for the integras was less than $1500. If it were reasonable, that'd be the most sure bet, as the intake manifold flange would be the only problem (which is fixable with some cutting and reattaching with the a20 flange, as we've done with other intake manis)...

ugh
peace fellas
paul

[ET2]

That manifold fits the a18 head its around 250us, add a set of webers off ebay 250-500 depends on if you want 40's or 45's, what most guys do is use the et2 head ontop of the a20 bottom end, and it up's the compression. the site for the manifold is
http://www.autoquipgroup.co.uk/car-accessories.htm

[A20A1]

Did you guys see this dudes setup? https://www.3geez.com/member.php?u=361

[Civvy]

Be carefull of not including the "minor" parts/linkages/cables and setup in your budget, will proberbly need are only made by Weber. It can cost as much as another carb by the time your correctly jetted/running right.
I'd buy 2nd hand and get a rebuild kit! as long as you get a matching pair.
The manifold is available from www.piercemanifolds.com (acura integra B18).
I'm not sure autoquip ever made the b20 conversion manifold, i know they have done the a20/a18 in the past. i'm not sure they are still, and wasn't it autoquip new zealand?

[Civvy]

If u wana do it even cheaper how about trying the Weber 38/38 downdraught DGV? it should be a gain over the stock F.I.
Get the conversion plate from www.piercemanifolds.com and use the ole stock a20 manifold.
Thing is. with a carb/carb(s), your the boss not a computer!
Computers are expensive and havoc when they go wrong.

Civvy

[Civvy]

:pc:

[A20A1]

get the carbs off e-bay, pairs are said to be better but I guess there is nothing wrong with buying two carbs seperately.

Or you can go IR style efi... REDLIN KIT

[A20A1]

And don't forget that a 45 can be adapted to a DGV plate... you'll need both adapter's but at least you'll have the option of runinning some kind of dcoe carb or dcoe style injection setup... I don't know how well it will flow though, being so far away from the intake ports... may be better just to stick with a carb if you use this.

http://www.jameng.com/products/index.phtml?section=12




you should remove the center divider in the intake manifold if you use this...

:D

[Versanick]

My impression is that the capabilities surrounding the DGV, for flow, aren't quite the same as a DCOE setup...

although one thing about the DCOE setup confuses me - that it faces the windshield. Wouldn't you think, that with any considerable acceleration, especially in lower gears (because of g-force), the flow would be slightly reduced if they're trying to pull air and fuel forward instead of backward? Or is that unavoidable, with them being sidedraft...

I can picture a DGV setup being inefficient in that air has to come in (from the sides of a filter, usually) then down through the carb, then back forward through each runner, then another bend down into the head...

A DCOE setup I'm imagining only has to go foward in through the carbeurator(s), the manifold moves it in generally the same direction, and then only one turn down(almost straight still though) into the head...

Guessing that the flow is reduced by having to go through several bends and turns, a DCOE setup is automatically more efficient...

I'm going to talk to some people with DCOE setups to ask them about their projects, what it costed them etc... I'm not diametrically opposed to a DGV setup like one with the adapter plate that a20a1 showed... but am I wrong about DCOE? Or does it really have significantly more potential than DGV?

THe other thing is that one DCOE 45 carb would be fine to go through a DGV conversoin like that, but running a dual 45 DCOE setup would require a custom manifold anyway... and at that rate, it may as well be set up like DCOE instead of DGV, right?

Or does that not make any sense? I just got my wisdom teeth out and I have lots of vicodin, so I'm feelin a little silly. But I hope the question is remotely clear...

thanks for the help guys
youre the mans
and womans if there are any
peace
paul

[rjudgey]

If cost is a huge factor than DGAS 38/38n would be the answer but if you can afford to go twin DCOE's than that's the best way forward, they are like having 4 carbs their just two joined together, each choke has it's own fuel supply, and has an individual idle jet, main jet, and butterfly. Yes Webers are expensive new i bought mine new but your guranteed less trouble in the long run, a good pair of ITB bodies will set u back $300 each maybe less secondhand but they wear too!! Most your cost on FI will be tank, fuel lines, pump, and regualtor as well as ECU and sensors.
I would go DCOE 45's B18 manifold moddified to fit or get one custom made works out about the same either way, then get a crank fired ignition setup stock will be poor. You can get DIY crank fired kits for ignition if your willing to do some soldering and don't mind using Ford parts!!
A Mugen B 20A used in Formula 3 racing back in late 80's in a RALT F302 used an ITB setup with a 26mm restrictor intake on the air box!! and still made 210bhp at 6K so just imagine what an unrestircted B20A with twin DCOE's with 40mm chokes would be like with some headwork, cams and exhaust would make a B 16 look very weak!!
My ET and A18/A20 engines push out from 180-200bhp+ with twin 45's max output is about 230-240bhp then you'll need ITB's with 50mm chokes and huge injectors or if you dare a pair of DCOE 50's or 55's!!! But you'll need another manifold as their bigger than 40's and 45's!!!
Good luck deciding either way stay away from stock carb, stock injection and weber 32/36 so if you got money twin 45's on a budget DGAS 38/38 simple as that really either way you gonna be getting more power than a B16!!
Have you got a part code and manufacturer name for those pistons really need a set oversize if possible got to build upto a few B20A's over the next year i got two ludes one with B20A other with race prepped A18/A20 hybrid and another which is Civvy's car he breaks them i fix them!!
BTW if anyone needs gasket info, or in U.K and need gaskets on any engine i have a friend who supplies AJUSA gaskets which are the best gasket kits in the world even better than Felpro except Felpro ET gaskets let you run a 2.0litre bore so they do have uses!! Especailly for you 2g accord guy's!!