Getting Harder & Harder To Start

[it's paid for]

Hey,

Here's the situation:

219,000 miles
Head reworked
New carb

Okay - when I first got everything back together, it ran great & it still runs pretty good. It used to start "super quick" but now, it takes longer & longer to start.

First theory:
I think oil is getting by the rings and clogging the spark plugs, making it harder to start.

A typical drive:
When I'm going down the highway, the engine often "rattles" . . . when I give it gas it quiets down - my guess is this "rattling" noise is due to either predetonation or could it possibly be just a worn engine or both or something else? The car is "noticeably underpowered" and I think this is just the result of worn rings (poor compression). If I can just remove the plugs and clean them every 2000 miles or so, that's no big deal - if it'll help keep the car going & make it easier to start.

I was planning on doing the rings this summer - to "tighten up" the bottom end to sort of match the refurbished head work. Of course, this time, I WILL take the engine out to do the bottom & have the block bored & cleaned & blah, blah, blah.

So . . . I'm going to remove the plugs today & check their status and then go from there. I am also going to get a compression tester . . . I can use it on other cars . . . I'll get the "screw in" type . . .

Another theory:The tube coming from the valve cover goes directly into my air cleaner - is the "oil spray" coming out of this tube & going into my intake manifold causing oil fouled plugs? I remember one time when this tube from the valve cover was unplugged & pointing straight up . . . you could see a "mist" of oil coming out of it. Am I supposed to have some sort of filter between the valve cover outlet & the air filter to trap or remove the "oil mist"? Should I just cap off the vent at the top of the valve cover & then also at my air filter where it connects now?

Comments, suggestions & recommendations are always welcome.

Thanks,

IPF

[shepherd79]

1. best way to check if your engine is loosing the compression is to do a compression test. you can buy the kit from any autoparts stores. they are cheap.

2. oil should not come out of the tube.
if the oil is comming out of the tube, replace the PCV valve. the oil fumes are not recirculating properly.

i would change PCV valve first. it should be no more than $3.

hope that helped.

[it's paid for]

1. best way to check if your engine is loosing the compression is to do a compression test. you can buy the kit from any autoparts stores. they are cheap.

2. oil should not come out of the tube.
if the oil is comming out of the tube, replace the PCV valve. the oil fumes are not recirculating properly.

i would change PCV valve first. it should be no more than $3.

hope that helped.

Okay - I'm off to get a compression tester . . .

PCV valve? I don't think I have one . . . anywhere . . . I'm serious . . . I think I rippped out everthing, including the ga-zillion vacuum lines & PCV valve . . . where would it be if it was still there? Should the PCV valve fit onto the tube coming from my valve cover to the air filter?

Thanks,

IPF

[it's paid for]

I'm looking at my Haynes manual . . . honestly, I can't find anything, anywhere in this book about a PCV valve . . . from the '76 to the '83 Accords . . . nothing . . . no PCV valve anywhere . . .

Page 209, Chapter 13 Supplement 1977 thru 1979 USA models, Fig. 13.22 Emission control equipment (49 states, low altitude) . . . this diagram shows "Breather Hose A" (the one coming from the valve cover) going to a "Condensation Chamber" & then the flow coming from the valve cover goes into the intake manifold. Do I need to reinstall the "Condensation chamber"?

Also . . . at the bottom of page 57, "Breather Tube A" goes to the condensation chamber & then down to "Breather Tube B" where the flow then goes into the carb, below the butterfly valves, then flows into the intake manifold with the gas/air mixture.

At the top of page 57, there is a "drain tube" coming from the condenser chamber . . . that doesn't seem "environmentally friendly" . . .

What would happen if I just plug the tube coming from the "Blow-by Liquid Vapor Separator" (the hump at the top of my valve cover) and also plug the hole in the bottom of my air filter?

[shepherd79]

man, your engine is weirdest thing ever. i never seen a car without PCV valve. i think every HONDA has them.
unless your engine is some kind special one, you should have one.

[it's paid for]

man, your engine is weirdest thing ever. i never seen a car without PCV valve. i think every HONDA has them.
unless your engine is some kind special one, you should have one.

Where?

It used to have an EGR valve . . . and tons of other crap . . . all that stuff is in a box waiting for me to toss it out . . . and there's lots of stuff too!

I just replaced the PCV valve on my Astro a few weeks ago . . . should I put a PCV valve in the tube between the valve cover & the air filter? Should I just plug the air filter connector & install a filter at the end of the tube coming from the valve cover? I've seen other people here who posted photos that looked like that's what they did.

Happy Honda-ing,

IPF

[Vinny]

I agree with Alex that its odd that you don't have one but I scrolled through Autozone and they don't list a pcv valve and when you go to locate it says "component selected is not installed onm this vehicle" or something to that extent. I also scrolled through Majestics site and didn't see a listing for one. Since you have to take your plugs out to check compression that would be a good time to inspect them to see if they are oil-fouled. I'm not a big proponent of this but they do sell spark plug non-foulers that MAY be something you want to check on. Also have you done any playing with any lines, vacuum or any other rubber lines lately? I've seen vehicles with a crossed line cause an increase in pressure in the bottom end that created an oil blowby nightmare. I am also wondering if any of this mas anything to do with your secondary not working correctly, its always a thought. Also is it turning over slower or just taking longer to catch when it's starting? Andy would probably be the best one to check with on this since its a 2g. But I'll throw some ideas out there for ya
Aren't you glad you didn't take my advice and just souce an engine at a salvage yard for 200-300 bucks or so bucks or so???????

[shepherd79]

ok to stop this, i went to fram.com and looked it up the part number for PCV valve for you. it is FV285. so now you have to find where it is located.

on 3G, it is located in the middle of the intake manifold. it is connected from the bottom of the oil pan/oil collector box to the intake manifold itself.

[PhydeauX]

The pcv valve is in the mainfold. If I remember right its off on the passenger side stuck in a casting flange. Its setup similar to the 3g. There is an oil seperator on the back of the block, A tube come from that to the bottom of the pcv valve, then a tube comes off the top of the pcv valve and loops back into the manifold.

andy

[shepherd79]

i knew it, you said there are none. HA. jk man.
replace the PCV valve and everything will be back to normal.

[it's paid for]

The pcv valve is in the mainfold. If I remember right its off on the passenger side stuck in a casting flange. Its setup similar to the 3g. There is an oil seperator on the back of the block, A tube come from that to the bottom of the pcv valve, then a tube comes off the top of the pcv valve and loops back into the manifold.

andy

Okay . . . so, if that's where it is, I'm not going to feel bad for not knowing where it is . . . either I totally missed this when I had it all apart or . . . I removed it & capped it off . . . could it be that what I thought was the EGR was actually the PCV?

oops!

[it's paid for]

I've looked everywhere - the only thing I found that's even remotely matches your description is the tube coming from my exhaust manifold - and that was cut off and capped off on the drivers side of the intake manifold. That thing wasn't the PCV valve . . . whatever it was.

The pcv valve is in the mainfold. If I remember right its off on the passenger side stuck in a casting flange. Its setup similar to the 3g. There is an oil seperator on the back of the block, A tube come from that to the bottom of the pcv valve, then a tube comes off the top of the pcv valve and loops back into the manifold.

By "manifold", I'm assuming you mean intake manifold, right? I have a 1758 cc engine with intake & exhaust on the same side of the engine - both manifolds are on the firewall side of the engine. there is no "oil separator on the back of the block" below the exhaust manifold (which is below the intake manifold), nor is there an "oil separator" on the front of the block. Could it possibly be that in my "frenzy" to remove all of the ga-zillion vacuum lines, I cut this one off and never connected it back and after looking under the car yesterday I just didn't find the "oil separator on the back of the block"? Right now, there are only three things on my intake manifold:

• Carburetor
• Coolant intake
• Coolant return

There are, of course, several attachment points where stuff used to be - but all that stuff is either gone (not reattached or cut off) or capped off.

The only "separator" I can find on this engine (& in the Haynes manual) is at the top of the valve cover and the tube coming from that is now going straight to my carburetor with no "condensation chamber" and no feed tube to the carb below the carburetor butterfly valves (as in the diagrams in the Haynes manual).

Basically, the Haynes manual shows a simple diagram which, I think, matches what was on the car before I "fixed" it:

1. tube coming from valve cover goes to condensation chamber below air filter
2. condensation chamber pulls air from inside the air filter area - above the carb
3. flow goes to tube attached just below the butterfly valves

From the original installation, I'm missing two things:

1. the condensation chamber which pulls air from the area between the air filter and the top of the carb
2. a connector tube between the condensation chamber and the carb that connects just below the butterfly valves

And I won't believe this engine ever had a PCV valve located on it until I see it in a diagram somewhere or find it on the car (yet another search?).

My original questions are still unanswered:

1. Is it possible the current setup is getting too much oil into my intake manifold, thus clogging my plugs & making it difficult to start?
2. Can I either cap off the tube coming from the top of my valve cover which is now going to the air filter box? or
3. Should I terminate the tube coming from the valve cover to a filter - like a fuel filter, for example - so the valve cover can "breathe"?

And finally, could all this "hard to start" problem be due to the carb stack plates leaking? (they are)

And, though I've come a long way & learned a lot . . . this is yet another humbling experience which helps me realize I have a long, long way to go before I really know much about my car. I guess this reply sounds "argumentative" - I'm not arguing - I'm just ignorant & frustrated because my car is sick and needs help.

Thanks very much & happy Honda-ing,

IPF

[shepherd79]

1. YES, your engine problem is due to oil being in combustion chamber. that is why it won't start as easy.
2. do not cap the tube on the valve cover. you are not solving the problem. you need to find the PCV valve. open all the ports that you capted and see which one it may be.
Also, look at your stock air filter box, it may be there i don't know. you need to find that valve.
3. for a time being you can get external small filter to put on the valve cover, but that still won't solve the problem half way. the filter will git really dirty really fast.

Not to be rude, but it sounds like you need to learn how to be patient with cars. Plus you can't just depend on one manual. get yourself another manual like chiltons. it is a lot better manual. you can get them online or Napa, or Carquest autoparts stores.

Don't do the job half way, do it right and get to the problem.

[it's paid for]

Not to be rude, but it sounds like you need to learn how to be patient with cars. Plus you can't just depend on one manual. get yourself another manual like chiltons. it is a lot better manual. you can get them online or Napa, or Carquest autoparts stores.

No way am I gonna think you're rude - I realize I'm impatient and sometimes it's really hard for me to deal with car problems. I can't understand the "Mr. Rogers" types . . . so calm all the time . . . how do they do that? I can't figure it out - I even sleep fast!

Don't do the job half way, do it right and get to the problem.

That's my goal - and I'll take your advice & suggestions . . . hopefully, when this problem is solved, the little 2G will run better. How am I ever going to repay all the nice folks here who've helped me out? 2G & 3G party at my house? Spare parts? Maybe if I just quit asking stupid questions?



Thanks,

IPF

[it's paid for]

. . . okay . . . pages54 & 55 of the Haynes manual, section 16 indicates (basically this is what's printed - not exactly)

The emission control system is basically divided into three parts. The exhaust emission control system is designed to reduce the harmful gasses given off by the exhaust system; the crankcase vapor emission control insures that any blow-by vapor within the crankcase is redirected to the combustion chambers via the carburetor and inlet manifold and is burnt off; and the evaporative emission control system dispenses with fuel vapor given off by the fuel storage and supply systems of the car.

Honda engines having exhaust emission control sytems are unique in that they are fitted with a CVCC type engine. The Compound Vortex Controlled Combustion engine has a special cylinder head in which there are two combustion chambers per cylinder. The main chamber is supplied with a very weak mixture while the auxiliary chamber receives a rich mixture, and contains the spark plug. When the rich mixture in the auxiliary (small) chamber is ignited, the flame produced passes to the main chamber and the weak mixture therein is in turn ignited. The principle advantage of this system is that the engine is able to operate on a relatively weak fuel/air mixture thus reducing the harmful exhaust emissions, and it also disposes of the many auxiliary components normally fitted to achieve this on vehicles of other manufacture.

. . . okay . . . page 25 of the Haynes manual, section 16 Crankcase Ventilation System - Maintenance

The emission of fumes from the engine crankcase is controlled by a closed type ventilation system.

2 - Maintenance consists of occasionally checking the security of the system hoses and at 15000 miles (24000 km) intervals cleaning the fixed orifice of the four way union using an 0.039 inch diameter twist drill

3 - Pull the large drain tube from under the air cleaner. Allow any accumulated water or oil to drain out of the tube.

4 - Detach the condensation chamber from the air cleaner and tilt it to inspect its interior. Clean out any condensation or deposits from it, and also from the connecting tubes.

5 - Check that the gasket that fits between the chamber and the air cleaner is in good condition and then refit the chamber to the air cleaner body and reconnect the drain hose.

So . . . it's important to note that #3 above won't happen as only the earlier models used the drain tube from the condensation chamber.

Also, there is no mention of the PCV valve. Can I just buy a PCV valve and install it in the middle of the tube which now connects the valve cover to the air filter?
Thanks,

IPF