My passion for 3G's got blown away (Longish)

[Oyvind Ryeng]

It took one ride, just ONE ride in my friends SR20DET-equipped S14. One ride. It confirmed once and for all how FR is the best layout and sadly, everything else is just for transportation. His car was a little lightened, and put down 250WHP and 260 foot-pounds of torque on the dyno. The pull was overwhelming; my upper body just got pinned into the seats, even to a good extent in the highest gears. By the way, the 180SX RS13's have in Europe CA18DET and the Silvia S14 comes with the SR20DET stock. The PS- and KPS13 Silvia was never sold in Europe.

As some of you may or may not know, I am a huge fan of drifting and touge-driving, and with my 3G it's just no fun. But in the S14, I could not stop grinning. My friend is a skilled driver and showed me what his car was made of and what it is capable of with a decent driver. That incredible traction when launching... The wonderful lack of traction in mid-drift... Also, the S13's and S14's have an unlimited potential when it comes to tuning and styling and other aftermarket parts.

I don't know what to say. I like(d) my 3G, and know they have their good sides and all, but it's just no fun, no fun at all compared to a highpowered FR-car.

From this point and onwards, I'll only use a bare minimum of money to keep my 3G running trough the following school-year. I'll also most likely get a part-time job and save up some money, because I *NEED* a FR car, preferably a 1989-1992 JDM, RHD Silvia PS13. It's going to cost approx. USD$10,800 (NOK 80,000), and I'd have to pay even more for a 1993+ KPS13 /w a SR20DET, so I have a long way to go. If I work part time at the local gas-station I would earn USD$14 (NOK 110) an hour, so basically, I'd have to work 727 hours to finance the car. That equals four and a half months of working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Add approx. 25% for taxes, and we come to a grand total of 908 hours; 5 and a half month worth of work. However, I would estimate "time-left-to-S13-acquisition" = one year; a year, a year and half at the most; I can't work full time and be 8 hours a day at school, and still find time to sleep, do homework, study, eat and live. But so help me God, I'd eat rice and noodles every day if that'd get me the car faster.

The good news is, I can get the car shipped from Japan and here a little sooner. The car will cost USD$6,000 (NOK 45,000) to buy, insure, ship, tax into the country and be delivered to me. The rest of the money (USD$4,800/NOK 35,000) is the registration fee/tax/duty. That's right, to get the plates from the Norwegian DMV I have to pay USD$4,800 in pure fee/tax/duty, wich goes straight into the Goverments wallet. The good news is, I can buy "prøveskilt", in other words, "testplates" direcly translated. Those cost USD$25 (NOK 185) a day (24-hour period), and are insured with liability-only. Those plates allow one to testdrive just about anything that has wheels. That means, that for USD$25 (NOK 185) I can actually drive around town with the Silvia. Also, I can insure it seperately, even tho it hasn't been registered yet. The number of testplates issued per car is unlimited, so this is an acceptable option for taking the car out on the weekends.

A friend of mine is doing this (testplates) with a BNR32GTR Skyline now and then. Yes, a Skyline. I have seen it, and actually touched it. And I've even sat in it. Unforuneately, it's too expensive for me (USD$25,000 when registered). He will have it registered within a month at the most. (/rant)

I won't be leaving 3Geez tho', not until the Silvia S13 is in my custidy. I'd still need to count on you guys to help me out with eventual problems my 3G will give me. Knowing that I'll soon give it up for another car, it'll get jealous and give me a hard time, I'm sure. Or, like any other made-in-Japan car, it will run till the end of the world. It will probably also run with sand in the combustion chambers and 0 PSI of oil pressure for like another 10,000 miles (slightly exaggerated to illustrate my point).

As a cookie for reading all this, here's a picture of what the Silvia of my dreams looks like, only, mine has to be black like Sin itself, on gold wheels with a deep, polished lip.

[Elijah]

I was gonna do the same thing here.We aswell as you guys have the 15 year thing.There are alot of cars to choose from now.But here we can get a R32 for 15k canadian shiped and everything.All you have to do is get insurance and plates.Plates are$70 a year and insurance ranges on driver a person with a good record can get it for $1500 full coverage.But now that the 3g is turbo it holds you in your seat.And it is so much fun.And some people actually give me alot of respect for the car when they see it in action.

[sporkHSP]

wow...i know a guy who bought a 240 for US$350, and was working a deal to buy another one with an SR20DET for another US$350. the first has a decent body, and the second has the engine but terrible body... and it was all free money from his $6,000 signing bonus for the Army Reserves.
the car isnt a silvia, but nowadays its not hard to make a 240sx pretty close to a silvia.

im not trying to undermind your rant, but you may want to keep the 3gee around until the Sil is on its feet.

[deadlight]

I know the feeling, I was pretty loyal to my 3rd gen, until I drove my SHO, it was just such an incredible performer, I couldn't ever look back. My next car if not an SHO will hopefully be RWD as well, I've taken quite an interest in a certain Supercharged 3.8 RWD coupe from Ford

[Oyvind Ryeng]

-A highpowered 3G is tempting and sure sounds like a little fun, but still, it can't drift. This still leaves me on square one.
-I will keep the 3G until the Silvia arrives, but then I'll sell it off. It's probably gonna go for around USD$2,000 (NOK 15,000).

I could also get an AE86, that would cost approx. USD$5,000 (NOK 37,000) with everything, including registration paid. But it's not a highpowered car, it's not even easy to modify for more power. One would have to worry about swapping engines to either the 4AGZE or 1.6 20V from the AE111. The Silvia PS13 comes, like I mentioned earlier, standard with a CA18DET (169HP/226NM), 1.8-litre, cast iron block, 16V-aluminium crossflow head, and internals capable of handleing 300WHP in stock form. One would only have to change turbo/intercooler/header/exhaust/intake and to some extent modify the fuel system to have 300WHP. Possibly also a chipped ECU and/or an S-AFC.

[smufguy]

but on a allweather consideration, stick with a car that can be controlled. a FF or a AWD.

[Vanilla Sky]

i think i'd go with an AE86 with the AE111 enigne

[Oyvind Ryeng]

Well, I would of course rather point a 12-gauge to my head before taking the Silvia out on the salty roads. I'd preferably stay FR for winter also, like with a Laurel C31/C32, Mazda 929 and others. It's more fun and challanging to drive a FR in the winter, so ones Dori-Dori-skills don't fade away until the summer comes. But seeing as how those particual cars are somewhat rare, I'll probably end up with an 1988-1992 Audi 90 (4000) Quattro /w a 2- or 2.2-litre inline-5. This sucker has the mechanical/helical/ATB/Quaife/TorSen-type center differential, and an electric lockable rear diff. The body of those are fully galvanized and will rust very slowly. It's a good candidate for a winter-beater. Plus, they are affordable, on avarage NOK 40,000 (USD$5,400).

[thegreatdane]

And I want an NSX

[AccordAddict]

ahhh, your story is changing my thoughts about my 3gee now. i really want a fast car now!!!

[deadlight]

Fast cars are fun I agree with you though, a RWD car is much better for winter weather driving in my opinion, I just like the fact that if I swing the rear end out I have a much easier time bringing it back in, when the SHO's rear end swung out I didn't have too much trouble as long as it was dry, I had enough power up front to bring it back, I think modifying your 3gee would be just as fun, but if drifting is your main interest, then you're probably making the best choice.

[johndej]

man, screw the 240SX w/ a SR20, get a 240Z and put a 350 in it

[SharkyX]

well as nice as a Sil is i cant tell you, i had a toyota MR2 with the twin turbos, by far the easiset car i have ever drifted, the damned thing has the engine in th rear and is very short and RWD which helps with the weight shift very well, it will turn almst on a dime, id say find one to test out, you will fall in love.

[Oyvind Ryeng]

-An NSX is insanely expensive (NOK 400,000, USD$54,000), so that is totally out of the question. But it's still a nice car.
-What is a SHO? (Have I asked this before?)
-What SR20? I'll have one with a CA18DET. And I hate all V-engines ever made. Yes, that includes Hondas C32, Nissans VG-series, the ancient Saab V-4's and every single other V-engine in the entire world. No particular reason, I just don't like them one bit. About the 240Z - No way. It would net to a grand total of at least NOK 200,000 (USD$27,000). It's still not close to as affordable as a Silvia PS13. If I ever were to get an old car I'd get a Datsun 510 with a Mazda 20B 3rotor in it.
-About the MR2, for me it's like looking at naked men -> It just doesn't do anything for me. I'm in love from before, with the PS- and KPS13 Silvia.

Sorry if I sound negative/hating, but I know what I like when it comes to cars.

[deadlight]

The SHO is a special edition of the Ford Taurus, a car I don't believe was ever sold in Europe, it's a larger family sedan. The SHO was built up as a BMW M5-Mercedes Benz fighter, it came with a 220 hp Yamaha V-6 and a Mazda 5 spd. manual transmission, with an automatic available in 93. Mine was an 89. In 96 the SHO came with a 3.4 liter V-8 with Yamaha heads, and was automatic only. Very luxurious, very fast Here's a couple of pics...

sorry for the massive size. These are 1st generation SHO's, like mine. Miltown has a 2nd gen, and a V-8 3rd gen, Elijah on this board still has an 89 I believe as well.

[HondaBoy]

hmm, SHO. is it me or did the newest body style get an SHO edition. i thought i saw SHO on a new black one. anyway, i understand what you are saying about the FR cars with lots of power. i got to have some fun with a friends Firebird T/A. believe me, there's a whole lot of difference in the drive. and definately with its V8 its got a lot of power. i'll still not stray too much off from Honda's. although i'll get my Shelby Dakota soon. cant wait for that, basicly a muscle truck. its got some balls, that all i can say.

[deadlight]

Last year for the SHO was in 99, or the 3rd gen. The Taurus is in it's 4th generation now.

[Wipeout]

It confirmed once and for all how FR is the best layout and sadly, everything else is just for transportation.

Wait wait wait wait wait. The best layout for what? Drifting? It depends on preference. Straight line performance? No. Track use? Usually not.

FR cars are usually heavier in the front, which causes understeer when going into corners. The motor usually hangs in front of the front wheels and gives the car bad transient response, since the car has to plow a whole lot of iron in the front end back and forth. It's good for drifting because the half of the car that loses grip (the rear end) is lighter and therefore the novice driver has an easier time controlling the car from going into a spin. I understand your love for the Silvia but saying FR is the be-all end-all best setup is shortsighted.

Now, consider a MR car, like the Pontiac Fiero for example (yes, I'm biased toward the car.. but not toward the platform.) In the Fiero, the motor sits in front of the rear wheels, behind the passenger compartment. The car is slightly heavier in the back. Going into a turn, a stock Fiero will understeer, but only because it was set up that way from the factory - the lack of a rear sway bar, among other things, contribute to this. Setting this car up correctly with both a front and a rear sway bar will cause the car to barely do either unless you're purposefully trying to drift. MR cars are harder to drift with, but once you get the hang of them they are amazingly fun. Even more so, in my opinion, than FR cars. When the rear end loses traction you don't have a whole lot of time before you're facing the wrong way on the track. Controlling a MR car in a drift takes experience and quick reflexes. I'm not saying proper drifting in a FR car is easy, but the MR platform is definitely a little trickier, and that's what makes it fun.

As for straight line, MR cars grip better than everything but AWD. The weight is already shifted toward the back of the car, so off the line MR cars "hook" better than FR and way better than FF. MR cars also don't have the drivetrain loss that FR cars do.

Transient response of a MR car is superb since there is less between the front wheels to lug around. Try weaving back and forth real fast in a properly set up Fiero. It'll make you sick. :p

The main disadvantage of MR is that the engine bays are usually very crowded and hard to work on. There is more plumbing since lines have to be run to the front of the car for the radiator and possibly the transmission cooler or oil cooler. Another disadvantage is most MR cars are somewhat hard to find, and aftermarket is even worse.

Anyway, I don't mean to offend anybody, because to each his/her own.. but I guess I just wanted to justify why I am building up a MR car instead of a FR car. Good luck with your Silvia though, and we'd better see some videos!

[night]

im an MR2 lover. never got to have one though. but those turbo Mr 2's are gettin on the rare side now.

only thing is that they can be very hard to learn to drive. you have to stay on your toes as you can lose the rear quick. seen many wrecks with them

[smufguy]

FR cars are usually heavier in the front, which causes understeer when going into corners. The motor usually hangs in front of the front wheels and gives the car bad transient response,

i beg to differ. FR cars dont understeer, they always oversteer. its the AWD and FF that understeer. its pretty conceptual to see why a FR oversteers . . . . . no drive axle connecting the front tires.

also, the transient response u are talking about, care to explain that? im kinda getting the impression that ur talking about the steering response via the whole care behavior under ur expectation. in simpler words, making the car do what u want.

[zero.counter]

Wait wait wait wait wait...etc.

You may need to seriously rethink your approach and justify to an even greater length, your argument.

A couple of key notes to think about:
FFs tend to be heavier in the front due to the added weight of the tranny...
FRs tend to have a better weight distribution...
MRs are not very popular among the general populous and can severely oversteer...
AWD, well, you do the homework...

Think about stangs, supras, silvias, old school hot rods, etc. Then think about integras, accords, focuses, neons, etc. Then fieros, MR2s, etc. And lastly, Atessa equipped skylines, Mitsu Lancers, WRXs, and so on. (I named some of the most popular among the current audience).

A little more research and you can see my angle. To each their own is correct, some choose to stay open to other possibilities/suggestions/ideas/FACTS whilst other close their minds...

[Wipeout]

i beg to differ. FR cars dont understeer, they always oversteer. its the AWD and FF that understeer. its pretty conceptual to see why a FR oversteers . . . . . no drive axle connecting the front tires.

also, the transient response u are talking about, care to explain that? im kinda getting the impression that ur talking about the steering response via the whole care behavior under ur expectation. in simpler words, making the car do what u want.

When you get on the throttle, anything that drives the rear wheels will oversteer. That's not what I was referring to, nor is that considered "a car oversteering when going into a turn". When you take your average FR into a turn without throttle, the nose will plow every time. It's because there is more weight up front, and therefore more momentum.

Transient response, in general, is measured by how quick the car can react to changes in direction. The concept of transience (if that's even a word) is all about quickly changing forces, more specifically on the car during cornering. Transient response is so incredibly complicated that I can't even begin to accurately explain more than I have already. I don't completely understand it but I know a lot of it has to do with suspension geometry and weight distribution. All I can accurately say is that mid engine cars generally have better transient response than front engine cars because the engine is closer to the middle of the car.

Here, this link explains it way better than I can:
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/physics13.htm

[Wipeout]

zero.counter, I guess I don't really understand what your point is. You haven't disproven anything I've said, and so far I haven't seen any reason to rethink my argument. It's always possible that something I've said is wrong but I am pretty solid on what I've posted so far.

"FFs tend to be heavier in the front due to the added weight of the tranny..."
FR trannies are also in the front of the car (with the exception of some Corvettes) just not quite as far to the front. Yes, weight distribution in a FR is generally better than in a FF, but not by a whole lot (unless you look at trucks or muscle cars).

"FRs tend to have a better weight distribution..."
Some FR have good weight distribution, some don't. Most MR have a good weight distribution, a few do not. Hell, some FF cars are damn near 50/50, but that doesn't make them automatically good on a road course. It helps, though.

"MRs are not very popular among the general populous and can severely oversteer..."
They're not very popular because 1) it's hard to design them, and 2) it's expensive to design them. Of course they can severely oversteer if you set them up incorrectly, or if you don't know how to drive them. The same applies to the FR setup.

[zero.counter]

1. Yes, weight distribution in a FR is generally better than in a FF, but not by a whole lot (unless you look at trucks or muscle cars).

AGREE/DISAGREE
Key word is TEND...

2. Some FR have good weight distribution, some don't. Most MR have a good weight distribution, a few do not. Hell, some FF cars are damn near 50/50, but that doesn't make them automatically good on a road course. It helps, though.

AGREE/DISAGREE
Most don't, few do...

3.They're not very popular because 1) it's hard to design them, and 2) it's expensive to design them. Of course they can severely oversteer if you set them up incorrectly, or if you don't know how to drive them. The same applies to the FR setup.

AGREE/DISAGREE
I could go into detail, but we have basically confirmed that MRs suck for most guys that don't have deep pockets or the time to effectively setup, just to bring up to a level worthy of competing with another car on a different platform. The exotic MRs won't be included in this discussion, unless they are for sale at a "Bart's used car lot" nearest every other member of this board.
My point is, don't knock the other platforms for silly unsubstantiated reasons other than your personal experience with the MR cars. They all have their Advantages/Disadvantages and some are not better than others. If you feel this way, at least provide evidence in advocacy of such to justify your way of thinking.

I am merely bringing up a valid argument, not intending to quarrel. If you feel that way, i apologize.

[Wipeout]

I could go into detail, but we have basically confirmed that MRs suck for most guys that don't have deep pockets or the time to effectively setup, just to bring up to a level worthy of competing with another car on a different platform. The exotic MRs won't be included in this discussion, unless they are for sale at a "Bart's used car lot" nearest every other member of this board.
My point is, don't knock the other platforms for silly unsubstantiated reasons other than your personal experience with the MR cars. They all have their Advantages/Disadvantages and some are not better than others. If you feel this way, at least provide evidence in advocacy of such to justify your way of thinking.

I am merely bringing up a valid argument, not intending to quarrel. If you feel that way, i apologize.

I don't think we've confirmed that at all - quite the opposite, really. For under $5000 including the car, I am building a Fiero that will be able to outhandle a lot of what's on the road today.. and I mean a lot. I am planning to go toe-to-toe with my friend's built CRX. Completely different worlds. He's small motor, hopefully soon to be forced induction, no power until 5500 RPM, FF, hard as a rock suspension, while I am big light motor (aluminum block), naturally aspirated, power from idle to redline, MR, 275 lb/in springs. When I get my car back, ask me for the results. I'll be running stock suspension for a little while so you'll be able to see some of what a stock Fiero can do with a little more power at the wheels. You know what's funny is, I really don't want to irk you by saying this, but a lot of the things you say could really be applied the other way around!

"we have basically confirmed that MRs suck for most guys"
I don't know where we confirmed that, but I must have missed it.

"My point is, don't knock the other platforms for silly unsubstantiated reasons other than your personal experience with the MR cars"
I'm not knocking any platform - I'm revealing some of the more subtle advantages and disadvantages of each platform while trying to stay unbiased. Don't knock the MR setup just because you haven't had as much personal experience with it!

"They all have their Advantages/Disadvantages and some are not better than others."
That's exactly what I'm saying to you!

It doesn't take deep pockets to build a road worthy MR car.. just some creativity and a lot lot lot of research.