you'd need dyno and/or flow bench results to know which flows the best on an A20.
you'd need dyno and/or flow bench results to know which flows the best on an A20.
Nothin' 2 Old Racing
thats true because it depends on your setup and the a20 is a slower reving motor. For boost i really think the Victor X etc is overkill for all but the most serious high boost high hp application, so seriously short runners are only of soo much benefit, i think youd have a much better torque curve an a20 with somthing like an AEBS intake or a Skunk2 or B16a/B18c5 without really limiting your peak power, plus adding intake plenum volume would be more beneficial than using like inch long runners to try and get more power. The stock intake will become a restriction when you start trying to make an serious power but youll make nice torque numbers with it to a point
429whp 362wtq A20 TURBO. A20T>*
price is not an issue so do not use it as a reason? Then get the Endyn one. You think you can get it for $500? Good luck. I don't know what manifiold is the best design. I would think you would want a larger plenum than stock (if you had the stock length runners) because compressed air=stiffer spring, it vibrates at a higher frequency..a bigger ported speaker box with the same port length=lower resonant frequency, you know. However, turbo saab, short runners, big plenum, opposite of turbo dsm.. I know endyn does their research, and I would bet on their engineering. However, so does edelbrock.
the motor is gonna push a max of 30psi and a norm of 12 to 15 and on a sunny day like a blistering hot summer, probably around 20 to jsut mess around. I am gonna take it to the track and thats why its gonna be high. The block and the head will be worked on and its no problem. everything with the fuel is worked out already and so is a special gastank. From what i have read and talking to engine builders, venom manifold is usually preferred for the drag application since its better with high boost. But for a daily driver, which this car is gonna be (dont even start saying anything about it) i need to have better response even with low boost. Im leaning towards the AIR Endyne.
If you look at the construction casted manifold may not flow the best... but ones like the JG where the plenum was not completed... means they had access to the ports and could smooth them out more... then seal off the plenum latter. That CF one looks cool... I know that it will mean cooler temps which is always a plus, is it designed for boot though?
- llia
it is designed to withstand upto 50psi and 250 F. i like the design of the venom and AIR cause they are tapered towards cyl1 makin the air flow even across the 4 cylinders.Originally Posted by A20A1
Last edited by smufguy; 03-03-2005 at 05:28 PM.
thats the big thing about that manifold, it keeps the charge air temps cooler but its a modest size intake, not big/huge like the victor x etc so itll give you a nice tq curve too
429whp 362wtq A20 TURBO. A20T>*
What about this along with the CF manifold...
http://store.yahoo.com/twincamtech/honinmangas.html
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- llia
i was thinking of that too, and i heard somewhere that a company made those things in a ceramic composite which is a much better heat insulator that goes in bwt the manifold and the gasket, rather than replace the gasket itself. heat dissipation is one thing i am mainly concerned about both in the intake and exhaust areas. But as far as the exhaust, i think i have it covered, but the design is under way, and there will be a thread for the exhaust manifolds soon.
MIKE: i appriciate your replies man, cause u know a lot about the manifolds and whatnot. Thanks.
Daily driver... FUN! -lol
I'd go towards the AIR Endyne myself. Light weight and insulating properties are a big factor in my mind. I'd go with one of those aftermarket gaskets too.
The big thing is to get lots of COLD air into the head quickly, so nice, aerodynamically smooth internal shapes and a highly polished finish are going to be the best for airflow.
Getting dyno tests for all of these models on an A20 is pretty much out of the question, so unless you can get some airflow test results for each of the intakes its going to be a matter of personal opinion and guesswork.
Ideally you want lamilar flow at a high psi. I'd see if the manufacturers' can provide any concrete testing numbers such as volume per min and in/out pressures for each cylinder.
One last thing; I'm glad you're going at this from a non-$$ motivational perspective.... its refreshing!
best of luck praveen!
-Al
The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard;
And the stupid people are breeding......
http://www.cardomain.com/id/bluebead
thanks al. One of the things that the AIR does in the competition, is that their runners are tapered. the JG endyne on the other hand has venturies inside this manifold for greater flow. Custom race manifolds are the best for turbos, but they work good in high rpm alone or high boost (constant). I dont know why everyone laughs at a car with this much power is streetable when they themselves are not pushing anything close to it. I have ridden in a 500hp H22 civic, that passed NJ state inspection and it drives just like any other car, let alone look like one. I understand they are not the same motors, but still......................... you will see.but as for the intake manifolds, im seriously considering AIR.
Edlebrock manifold is what they offer for the D16 motors as a part of their turbo package. I like their look and so does BBK, but when i look at their specs, they said the manifold is good for makin power from 7k to 10K (NA) so i dont know how they flow in the lower rpms with boost. But with headwork done to the max, i should get the car where i wanna with no problem.
I think it would be kind of cool to cut up a factory manifold and weld on a plenum like the JG unit. Maybe I'll try it, that would look sick in addition to my intercooler..(did you see the pic?) I just don't know exactly what length to keep the runnners, and how big to make the plenum.
Last edited by Accordtheory; 03-04-2005 at 08:30 PM.
The BBK is more than $120....I wanted it but they only have it for the GSR so i got the polished victor x manifold which is growing on me by the day. Hopefully i will have an opinion on it very soon.
What someone needs to do (preferably not me) is compile a list of aftermarket manifolds for a popular turbo car, (2nd gen eclipse? etc), with the runner lengths, diameters, plenum volume, and accompanying dyno charts. The dyno testing should also have been done by a legit place, for instance turbo & high tech performance magazine, etc. Then we would have a better idea of how certain manifolds would work on our stupid accords. I'm about to do a little internet research on this now.
My Tuner who has tuned over 100 turbo honda's ranked the Victor X as the best. I was gonna get the skunk 2 one but took his advice since he tunes/dynos cars daily.
on flow testing done by AIR, the AIR flowed much better than the JG one. I dont know if the JG was the JG Edlebrock or the JG Endyne, but im guessing it was the Edlebrock.
Here is the flow data and dyno sheet from their webside http://www.advancedinductionresearch...mance_data.htm
i dont think it was the victor x i bet it was the other one, that looks like it flows like ass compared to the air mani
429whp 362wtq A20 TURBO. A20T>*
Dont let Edelbrock fool you same with skunk 2 and BBK. Little change in design mostly in the lenth of the runners to move the peak HP RPM up. Mostly a P&Ped stock intake. The Venom has a flat back wall to better reflect the sound waves back down the runners combined with shorter runners to increase flow and move Peak HP to higher RPM. I would go with the Endyne. It has the semi flat back wall and the runners arn't too short for us to use, too high Peak HP RPM. I also like that it is tapered to help keep pressure up and turbo lag down. Is that covered in CF or is it built out of CF that is bonded to the aluminum flanges?
hrm...
Runner Length Tuning
Second Pulse Lenght = 2nPL
Third Pulse Lenght = 3rdPL
Fourth Pulse Lenght = 4thPL
Fith Pulse Lenght = 5thPL
Pulse with stronger returning wave / narrower power band
2nd PL (INCHES) = 108,000 / RPM
3rd PL (INCHES) = 97,000 / RPM
4th PL (INCHES) = 74,000 / RPM
5th PL (INCHES) = 54,000 / RPM
Pulse with weaker returning wave / broader power band
Runner Taper
As taper angle increases, speed of returning wave increases.
13" runner with 4 degree taper = 10" runner with no taper
Straight runner for low rpm power
2-4 degree taper good for high rpm power
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Grape-Ape Racing has good info too.
http://www.grapeaperacing.com/GrapeA...ionsystems.pdf
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Last edited by A20A1; 03-07-2005 at 05:02 PM.
- llia
I've heard nothing but bad things from people I know who bought a Venom manifold.
Upon my personal inspection, I found that the runners were the same size/shape, so at least in that particular one, there was no tapering.
Also, inside the plenum, there was no effort for aerodynamics. It's just a sheet metal box with 4 tubes. I was rather disappointed.
It goes to show you that price does not equal quality.
I would recommend:
1. AIR
2. JG
3. Edelbrock
www.stein-photo.com
born to XLR8
You're saying there was no transistion between the runners and the plenum? That's pathetic! I wonder about the golden eagle manifold, isn't that basically the same as the Venom?
yeah, it's entirely pathetic. Seriously, what it looks like on the outside pretty much reflects the inside. Nothing hidden there. No R&D.
www.stein-photo.com
born to XLR8
golden eagle is the same as the Venom, but the price is just too much. $700 - $800 for that kinda manifold, fully race, is just not practical for me. Besides, i dont really like the way it looks or its construction.
The insides of the AIR on the other hand is pretty satisfying, smoothed out ends on the runners to the plenum since the cf mat could be contoured to make an even radius. Its quality looks good.
I wanna grab the CF manifold off that Mugen B20A
- llia
This goes out to all you engineering types...I am looking to further educate myself with some mathematical formulas regarding intake manifold design. I just finished reading "Maximum Boost", by Corky Bell, and that book taught me absolutely nothing about intake manifolds. Or much else for that matter. Anyone know of any good reading material on this subject?
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