INTAKE MANIFOLD ( Modification / Design / Fabrication )

[FyreDaug]

I'll get ahold of eaton, even if it isnt top feed charger (because it is off of an EFI car) we can always make a bracket on the intake side with a tube to have the carb upright.

If we get a carb off of a 350, make the barrels manual, what other vacuum stuff do we have to worry about?

How would we make it work so the power valve opens properly? Maybe I missed that part of carbs in high school. What can we convert to make it work?

IMPORTANT

What can we do about venting excess pressure? My friend has this idea of a seperator to seperate the air/fuel, return the fuel to the tank and blow off the air. But what can we use a seperator?

EDIT:

Hi there, I have a some-what wierd question to put across you.

I am building up a honda carbuerated motor and am building a pull-through charger system to power it.

I have access to an M90 charger that we plan on using to pull through a 500cFm 4bbl carb.

One of the major problems that has arisen (even though we are good fabricators) is that we havent built a pull through system before, and our main question is if this blower is capable of compressing air/fuel up to 5-6psi into a custom made intake manifold. (bypass/blow off is not a big issue right now)

All of our blue prints are ready and we have access to an m90 for a very reasonable price.

But like I said, we are worried about the air/fuel in a roots charger, we dont want to end up blowing ourselves up.

I was told to go directly to the source to ask if this application would work for the blower.

We would very much appreciate a response. Thank you for your time.

The email I sent to Eaton. Link to their site
and I hope to get a response shortly.

By the way, I should have my 3 pages of notes/diagrams up tonight, I have a scanner now but I have to go to work.

IMPORTANT

How would we go about doing the pcv? I havent checked how it works stock on our engines, but I would assume it would have to be hooked up to vacuum and not boost :p

[A20A1]

stock the PCV connects to manifold vacuum.

You could have boost referenced secondaries... or just have manual secondaries... I'm sure there have been a few conversions already.

For venting pressure you could make a horizontal tube connect to a large chamber near the top of the chamber... this will drop the pressure in the charge that was expelled... add some baffles in the chamber between the tube and the vent holes... the vent holes should be drilled at the very top of the chamber to slowly bleed the air... then at the bottom have a drain for fuel back to the fuel tank... the reason for the horizontal tube to the chamber is so that the fuel doesn't puddle in the tube or the blow off valve you use.

[FyreDaug]

Whoa, I missed that...

For venting pressure you could make a horizontal tube connect to a large chamber near the top of the chamber

Top of which chamber?

Bah, how about you help me with my blue prints. I'll see if I can bring the scanner into work.

Wait no, I cant attach? That sucks, do you have a host or anything? Again though, thanks for all your help. It will get me through this

EDIT: Or could you draw something? The inlet on the charger is on the opposite-pulley side. And obviously outlet is bottom of the roots.

[FyreDaug]

UPDATE: DOCUMENTS SCANNED TODAY

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Page 3

[A20A1]

woahisme... My internet isn't working with cardomain at the moment... all the pics and even my own site doesn't load.

[FyreDaug]

Damnit :p

Alright, well whenever you get a chance take a peek and let me know. Dont mind the hand writing, when I jot stuff down and make notes its always like that. Ignore the little doodles too :p

[A20A1]

Got the pics... need time to make out what you wrote.

You should upgrade the header and exhaust for sure or you'll be choking bad.

I saw your diagram... the runners seem a bit long... there isn't a lot of space and you need to take into account that the pully on the SC can't sit too far back or it will hit the body of the car near the strut tower...

[FyreDaug]

Arg, damn forums. I had something typed, but whatever. Basically I like the header style intake runners. I know they are too long, but it was a figurative diagram. I get my parts car tomorrow.

Anyways, my buddy here had this idea of venting it through a large cannister of ball bearings and mesh. The gas will condense around the metal and the air will be vented up (since theres less resistance than going through the return line into the gas tank) but how well will that work? I need some more ideas to seperate air/gas.

[A20A1]

I saw the 4 into 1 collector... problem is you want all 4 runners to meet on a level plane.. .
If you have 2 runners paired above the other 2 then it could mess up fuel distribution to the cylinders on top. Also to make smooth transitions you'll need a fair amount of length or else you end up with sharp 90* bends.
To seperate fuel from the air make sure the air has to go thru a few very tight / sharp 90* bends before it finds the exit... this will slow down the fuel and let the air pass it... you may still get some of the finer vaporised fuel but the big dropplets should be left behind. You could also cool the discharge from the manifold but that will take too much effort space and weight to be useful. Some cooling goes on automaticly when the gas expands.
You might be able to vent straight to the tank thru the charcoal canisters line... but then you'd need a second line to vent the tank consistently to keep the pressure down. You could use the intake and use the extra gas vapors or control it's release with a solenoid.

Ahaha. Sure you could vent the gasses thru the exhaust... it may be a bit wasteful... you may not need the BOV, but I guess it's nice having an extra safety measure.
When you vent it's gotta be somewhere that will vent the gasses evenly to all runners.
It may be better to choke the motor out and just restrict the amount of air the charger has to compress... this will also tie up some of the fuel as well but you'll be pulling large amounts of gas from the idle circuit.

[FyreDaug]

I think the 4-1 collector wont really matter since the whole system will be pressurized. I dont wanna vent the gasses through the exhaust, if I run it through the charcoal how would I keep the gas tank pressure down?

[2dsei]

it would probaly be easier to get a vortech super charget and build mounting brackets and plumming then to built a manifold

[A20A1]

I've asked before Vortech doesn't work with carbs

[FyreDaug]

Hey mike, whats the deal with you thinking the 4-1 collector wont work? (curious, not sounding like an ass)

[A20A1]

Hey mike, whats the deal with you thinking the 4-1 collector wont work? (curious, not sounding like an ass)

I didn't say it wont work I'm worried about the flow inside the manifold... it may not work as well as one with all 4 runners level with the plenum.

If you can find other supercharger manifolds that are not N/A Fuel injected manifolds with the same design as yours then go with it.

[FyreDaug]

Would the flow really matter though? Obviously the whole system will be under pressure, and with 3" splitting 4 ways equally, the flow should be fine.

And again, need some idea on filtering the air/fuel..

[A20A1]

If it was just air then no it wouldn't be as big a deal... I dunno how the fuel will behave in that type of configuration... sure everything is hot so the fuel should be all vaporized and flow well... then again I dunno... so why take the chance.

Besides flow I really don't see their being enough space for that design unless you decide to make room by cutting the hood.

If anything we have so little space that the charger and pully will have to be pretty darn close to the valve cover so it doesn't hit the strut tower or master cylinder.

[FyreDaug]

Stupid forums.
Basically: you dont think the 4-1 is a good idea?
If I have to (to make room) I can move the alt to the front of the car where the AC would sit. I'm sure if im capable of building a charger setup I can weld a bracket to put the alt up there
This is going on a long shot here, and I doubt this is a good idea but:
Since the bypass valve on the charger will be pushing and not pulling (still putting a check valve inline) we could run it directly into the tank, in the bottom, so the charger would bubble through the gas, putting the fumes back into the liquid form. I have absolutely no idea how the characteristics of fuel work in this way. Then have a vent at the top of the fuel tank ((EDIT: not line, tank)) for the vapors possibly running through a charcoal cannister (or even just another filter) then into the intake where the 2 filter pipes meet.
At idle the engine should be 2psi or so and it wont be bypassing, so it would suck through the bypass. So we'll put a check valve in there, should cure that. Might also help with not upgrading the fuel pump, if the intake does some of the sucking getting fuel vapor.
The only problem I see (right now anyways) is that once the boost is being bypassed it will run rich....
EDIT: Actually I think this is a good idea, I showed it to my buddy here at work (who came up with the ball bearing idea) and he said its awesome. Since the bypass will be pressurizing the tank at the bottom, any pressure in there will want to escape the only way it can, ,and since it would rise, and is being pressurized FROM the bottom, it would go up, and the vacuum of the intake would help.
And about the rich on boost part, I could just change the idle mixture to run right, and then lean out the primary/secondary's right?

Another thing, since I'm shopping around I'm gonna need a boost sensor and a boost gauge shortly. Any recommendations? I'm afraid to get something off ebay off of another car for a boost sensor, what do turbo guys usually use? (Keeping it fairly cheap, no wideband or anything)
EDIT: Are all maps the same in the voltage readout? Like all MAP's will show 5v at 15psi absolute or something? Or do they vary?

[A20A1]

I dunno how the power valve looks inside the carb you are using... but if you could I would say add a port the carb so that vacuum normally reaching the power valve from the hole in the carb would be sealed out... ad attatch a line from the port you made to the boosted side of the manifold and swap the location of the spring inside the powervalve so that it's not resisting vacuum but instead resisting pressure.
Spring rates will have to be worked out.
Leaning your primary and secondaries is not the answer.
The adjusting the idle mixture may help... but in the long run fixing the power valve so it's boost referenced would be better.

I beleive I had a picture of someone's modification to boost reference a powervalve on a weber... I'll have to go look it up.

[FyreDaug]

And if it can be done on a weber it can be done on a 350 carb.

Bump?

Another thing, since I'm shopping around I'm gonna need a boost sensor and a boost gauge shortly. Any recommendations? I'm afraid to get something off ebay off of another car for a boost sensor, what do turbo guys usually use? (Keeping it fairly cheap, no wideband or anything)
EDIT: Are all maps the same in the voltage readout? Like all MAP's will show 5v at 15psi absolute or something? Or do they vary?

Kinda curious about that

Sorry for the quad post, I'm kinda using this thread as a public note pad. So here's where this project sits right now:
I've got the parts car, it runs. I'm gonna pull the head and get the cam ground, meanwhile I'll pnp it myself while doing some exhaust/intake header/manifold with the help of my 3 tech-head roommates it shouldnt be too bad. Depending on the money situation this summer (more than likely) I will be able to afford a bottom end rebuild aswell, using stock comp pistons, balanced crank and forged rods. I know a guy who can hone out the bores for me aswell.
So I figure it would be best to wait to charge it until the engine is capable of it. Ive only got 2 engines, 1 is getting old (daily) and 1 is my backup. I dont wanna go and fuck stuff up and not have another motor to play with.
Another project I want to undertake is the hybrid accord/lude trans, just because.
I dont want to rush this project, I do that all too often and I end up not finishing stuff. As long as I have a plan and certain "stages" I shouldnt have problems doing this. I havent been able to build an engine for a while and Im dying to do it again.
I'll keep pics of all my progress/updates too. My plan is to keep this as a daily driver that looks like a rusty beater (like it does now) with some factory 14-15" honda rims wrapped with some killer rubber. Wanting 14's at the least from this car. The charger I will be using is capable of 10-12psi, and I intend to run that much when I want it.
Might sound like a dream right now because im pushing the charger back until everything is done, but I feel its neccesary, itll give me plenty of time to do any more research I need and make sure it works the first time.
Hope you can still help me out down the road mike. But right now I'm stuck between putting in a suspension to replace the dying suspension I have now or starting this engine. I can definately pull the head and start doing that in my free time, but everything else requires more dedication, I'm sure ill spend a good 50 hours on this head to make it perfect.

[A20A1]

Here is a site with some basic info... http://datsun1200.com/modules/nsecti...ticle&artid=35
"It's a B&M 144c.i. blower. blower Guess they're called Holley now"
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLin...SC/155010.html
http://datsun1200.com/modules/myalbu...o.php?lid=2367
http://datsun1200.com/modules/myalbum/photo.php?lid=825
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more good info
http://www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?ID=76
the screw and impeller type SC's are not good with carbs.
I wonder if they do custom jobs
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLin...C/SCbuild.html
Here are the SC dimensions
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/TechSer...o/SCTech3.html
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[A20A1]

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1431516

I guess it can use B series and Mustang TB's
Someone had already used a FORD 65mm TB on a B-Series Installed on an A20
here : https://www.3geez.com/forum/showpost....6&postcount=93

This is the Full-Race Bseries intake manifold

Price is $899





Top View, OEM throttle cable placement



Bottom View with b16 and b18 IAC, stock IAT and plenty of vacuum ports, and 4 additional injector bungs



B16/B18C5 AND B18C Head flange



Side View



Internal View of Plenum and Velocity Stacks



Showing Mustang AND B series Throttle Body Mounting

1) FULL-RACE

2) AIR ENDYNE CARBON

3) EDELBROCK

?) VENOM


Plenum : Edlebrock VS Full-Race

[Legend_master]

I am loving the velocity stacks inside the manifold, but I wonder if it works any better then other manifolds.

[bobafett]

check out the honda tech link... serious WHP gains

[gfrg88]

does the ford tb bolt right up, cause i tried it and im not sure if it was the right one????

[B16KILLA]

I dont think it bolts right up,thats why the manifold above has different mounting holes.I dont know,just guessing