B20a vs H22a please DO NOT DELEte

[mouchyn]

which ever one you build better is the answer to that question. to handle any real amount of boost, you're going to have to sleeve the engines. once you do that, it's not a honda engine anymore. the h22 block is not going to physically hold more boost than the b20 and vice versa. it would take hundreds of pounds of boost to physically break the blocks from turbo pressure. you wouldn't ever have to worry about that because you couldn't ever tune the engine to combust those kinds of pressures. the mixture would detonate and destroy the rings, rods, and valves. that's the case with ANY engine, not just a honda.

the problems you're going to run into are the strengths of the moving and connecting parts. that means you would have to upgrade the pistons, rods, bearings, crank, etc. once you do that, it doesn't matter what engine its in. It's not honda parts, so the block doesn't matter. Forged aftermarket rods in an h22 is the same as forged aftermarket rods in a b20. it's all in how you build the engine -- not how honda designed the engine. honda designed the engine for naturally aspirated operation. once you boost the block, hondas engineering reasons go out the window.

long story short, they are the same.

it's for that very reason i said that if you wanted to go crazy with the boost, you should use a newer b series engine like the b18. that way you'll be able to find upgraded parts easier, cheaply rebuild the engine WHEN it blows, etc.

displacement really only matters when you're naturally aspirated. turbos literally force displacement into the engine, so the .2 or .4 L difference between the b18 and the engines you listed could easily be made up for with more pressure. All you have to do is build/tune it right.

[RobT5580]

The B20A doesnt have to be sleeved for boost. A guy on the prelude board has been pushing 22PSI for over a year now with only a blown headgasket after 8 months and its daily driven. So far the problems i have had were not from boost itself so i cant say how it will hold up. Im going to run my up to 17PSI for the summer then work it up in the fall providing it holds up fine.

And you cant say you cant build a reliable honda with high horsepower and daily driven. If you look at all the hacked up setups then i see your point but if you look at the many well built/tuned ones they are doing just fine and going strong. In the past year iv seen a lot of 500hp+ hondas roll out and they are the ones that were built properly. Sure you will snap axles and such but how can you not expect that with that kinda power.

As for the H22 its a nice motor and can make crazy horsepower at lower boost levels but it has to be done right or it will be a problem. Also you cant drop forged pistons in them w/o a sleeve job because of the material used so thats a downfall if you dont plan on spending money on a sleeve job. Bottom line is you need money to make power and the right r&d will pay off in the long run.

[mouchyn]

why can't you drop forged pistons into an H22? it has the same FRM sleeves as all the other honda engines post 1990. The b21a1 was the first engine to have that type of engine. If you use stock-sized forged pistons, you just need new rings and it's just like putting stock pistons back in.

if you wanted to hone the cylinders to make a new seat for the new rings (recommended), there's a special honing stone for FRM sleeves.

remember the h22 in a mostly stock form has oiling problems at high power levels. they generally don't last long.

the b20a does have an all-metal sleeve, but that won't reliably handle high power levels -- especially with it's long stroke. The more power you have, the more the pistons are going to push against the sides of the cylinder walls in line with the crank movement (sideload). Over time, this will make the relatively soft stock sleeves out-of-round. It'll work for a while, but it's certainly not the right way to do things. If you want to get technical about it, the H22's FRM sleeves are actually stronger and will resist unevenly shaped wearing much better than the b20'a all-metal sleeves. That's why FRM sleeves are used. They are thinner, resis heat better, and are stronger than the all-metal sleeves used before. They also happen to be cheaper to make. If you look at any high milage FRM sleeved engine, you won't see hardly any marks or wearing on the walls. The FRM will chew up rings WAY before the walls get worn down at all. Physically, the FRM sleeves are a better setup.

that was the problem with the b21a1. Honda didn't quite have the technology figured out. The ring material they used didn't hold up well to the FRM walls. The rings created high friction levels against the super-strong FRM sleeves and just got eaten away. My first 3G prelude had a b21a1 in it and the sleeves looked BRAND NEW after 300k miles. I didn't even have to hone it. I put new rings on the stock pistons and it had perfect compression after the break in. It's still running strong. I see it around town occasionally.

which prelude board are you talking about? I know at preludepower.com (where i'm a moderator), there are like two users with boosted b20s. tonybaker and low12s are the only two, i think.

it's also important to remember that on these 4 cylinder engines, 1psi of pressure is going to add about 10HP at the flywheel -- give or take. That means 22 psi is just under 200 HP added at the wheels. Add that to the stock power rating and you're just around 350 whp. He said that he would never be satisfied with 350whp. hence the reason i mentioned sleeving. if you're going to be running that kind of boost on boost on a daily basis, there's no denying the correct way to do it is to get stronger aftermarket sleeves.

[RobT5580]

I meant the H23's but i was under the impression H22's used the same sleeves. And Tony Baker was the one i reffered to since his is a daily driver. Iv talked to many 3rd gen luders before that have been boosted over the past few years and the sleeves seem to work ok. Its been questionable if the B20A can be sleeved properly with aftermarket sleeves which i thought about but have been talked out of by ERL performance. Time will tell on how well mine holds up since im the only one that has gone all out with a turbo accord B20A.

And i guess to answer your poll hands down the H22 will produce more power because it can do it at much lower levels of boost. Personally going through what i have been if i had known what i have done i would probably have done a new b-series simply because parts are cheaper and they have the r&d to make a very reliable boosted engine. But there's no turning back so im going to keep testing the b20a until i catch a break but at this point i cant see anything else but time will tell.

[mouchyn]

the H23 is a MUCH better engine for boost than the H22. The H22 falls apart under pressure while the H23 wil chug along just fine at 12 psi on stock internals.

[ropponmatsu]

YEAH! i just purchased a JDM H22a, and based on the results this is a good decision.
Peace!

[masterkillalw]

I voted B20... I remember one member Dyno'd his accord and I believe he was 140 whp with the b20....

I know locally people with I/H/E on their 5th gen prelude's have put down a weak 130-140 whp reading. The H22 motor is a terrible platform IMO.

HUMMM...MAYBE CUZ 5th GENS CAME WITH AN H23!!!


oh yea and dude head over to www.preludepower.com to learn all u really can about h23's and h22's...me I would get a B18A1 and put a B18C5 head on it run LS/Vtec and then turbo that...seems a lot easier to do it that way then any other way...

[mouchyn]

uhhh, the 5th gen preludes never came with the h23. they only came with the h22 vtec.

the 4th gen SI was the h23. the 4th gen VTEC was also the h22.

that 140 whp on a modded h22 is pretty weak, though. I made that with my crappy b20a.

[ropponmatsu]

whatever, i belive my H22 has more than 140whp?. what motor is this that you are talking about is it the H22a4??

[RobT5580]

whatever, i belive my H22 has more than 140whp?. what motor is this that you are talking about is it the H22a4??

I think he is referring to wheel horse power on a dyno which is not the same as hp at the flywheel.

[mouchyn]

I think he is referring to wheel horse power on a dyno which is not the same as hp at the flywheel.

even still, a modded h22 should not be making 140 whp on a dyno. there's is something very wrong with that engine if is only making 140 whp. i would expect that from a higher milage stock h22, but not a modded one. A modded H22 should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 170-180 whp.

[racerx]

Get an h23 with a h22 vtec dohc head its alot of work but you will have 240hp stock but dont tell no one. because everyone on this site thinks its impossible but its not if you take the head to a machine shop.

Why bother? You can just get an H23A (vtec head) with 225hp from Japan.

I don't know about 240hp though. If you take an H22 head and put it on an H23 block via a machinist, he'll probably do a P&P and 3-angle valve job too, which would put you around 240hp.

Anyway, it would be much more economical and reliable to just get the H23A.

[racerx]

even still, a modded h22 should not be making 140 whp on a dyno. there's is something very wrong with that engine if is only making 140 whp. i would expect that from a higher milage stock h22, but not a modded one. A modded H22 should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 170-180 whp.

agreed. stock whp on a good engine should be in the neighborhood of 165 (200hp verison)

[ropponmatsu]

Originally posted by racerx:
agreed. stock whp on a good engine should be in the neighborhood of 165 (200hp verison)

And i too agree.