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Thread: Eibach pro kit Vs H&R

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    Eibach pro kit Vs H&R

    I have been noticing that lots of people rave about the H&R's with tokico struts, and i was wondering if its because there are more people with those as opposed to the Eibach pro kit.

    They are about the same drop right?

    what is the difference in the stiffness?

    Also, is there a price difference?

    currently i have the Eibach pro kit in the front only with stock struts and its a little bouncy. Mostly i just wanted to get rid of my HUGE wheel gap, but i like the lowered front end look that it gave the car.



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    86AccordLxi's Avatar
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    The thing with eibachs is that the spring rates are not that great. The rears are softer than stock (with just the car resting on them, not fully compressed) and and fronts are 44% stiffer than stock. On a fwd car, lower rear spring rates and higher front spring rates equates to more understeer (i.e. wheels turned but car not turning).

    People like h&r springs (and neuspeed springs..same thing for the 3g) because they are the softest spring, give a decent drop (1.5in---which means no camber kits), and also the rates are pretty decent (26% stiffer in the front and 41% in the rear).

    I'm not sure about the price difference, but from a performance standpoint for the 3g, I would stay away from the Eibachs and go with the h&r/neuspeed springs.

    Alex

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    thanks for the input

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    Busted_Blue's Avatar
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    I'm not so sure about the whole spring rates rule of thumb there.

    General rule of thumb is stiffer front rates mean understeer. But we gotta keep in mind our cars are not 50/50 weight distribution. FWD cars have majority of the weight in the front of the car and need springs to be stiffer in the front.

    Majority of the quick hondas on the track that I've known use higher spring rates in the front than the rear. I've seen where the spring rate in the front is double the rear and they perform great.


    I've driven on the H&R springs + Konis and I don't think they are great in terms of performance oriented. I never driven on the pro kits though so I couldn't give you an exact answer on which is better. But testing the H&R (26%, 44%) versus my Tokico springs (66%, 63%) I like my tokico springs better. It still maintains the same front to rear spring rate stock ratio but raising springrates on both ends about the same percentage.

    I'm thinking from a performance standpoint and I think neither of them are great.

    my 2 cents.

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    LX User Ace's Avatar
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    I drive on sportline and love the feal the sportline is a little more of a drastic drop I would go with the pro kit but I am a big fan of eibach springs
    "Id Rather Be Blown Than Injected"

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    does anyone have personal experience with H&R with tokico's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1987HondaAccord
    does anyone have personal experience with H&R with tokico's?
    Several memebers have that setup. The consensus seems to be that the rear is ok, but not great and the fronts are a little worse, allowing some bounce. That aside, the higher spring rates and slighting stronger dampers do produce a somewhat more responsive ride.

    A search in this section is likely to turn up some first-person reviews.
    Mike

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    I hate that the tokico springs are only an inch drop... I love the rates, but I just can't reconcile the wheel gap... From what I have seen it just still looks too tall. I guess my vanity took over, that is why I bought the H&Rs, maybe with the front Konis they wont be too aweful, but I will probably end up with Tokico springs and a pinchfork mod to make up the difference in height on the front.

    I thought about Eibach, but the prospect of having a potentially really bouncy back end turned me off, I hate when a car gose over a bump and the back travels all over the place.
    garagement racing

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    Busted_Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sporkHSP
    I hate that the tokico springs are only an inch drop... I love the rates, but I just can't reconcile the wheel gap... From what I have seen it just still looks too tall. I guess my vanity took over, that is why I bought the H&Rs, maybe with the front Konis they wont be too aweful, but I will probably end up with Tokico springs and a pinchfork mod to make up the difference in height on the front.

    I thought about Eibach, but the prospect of having a potentially really bouncy back end turned me off, I hate when a car gose over a bump and the back travels all over the place.

    I have Tokico springs and I dont mind the "stock" appearance. We compared the H&R unsettled to my Tokico settled and they practically look the same. After settling it shouldn't change more than 1/4 an inch. I drove mr_eff's h&r setup and I safely say that I hate those rates. As a car that is aimed at only looks, I would go with those rates, but I decided performance over looks.

    Personally I took the stiffer spring rates over the extra 1/2 inch drop. I've been running tokico struts on tokico springs for about a year and I take my car around corners almost 7/10 of it's limit very frequently. I just installed Koni Reds in the front on max stiffness and took it out last night to test it. All I can say is WOW, I am impressed with the way the konis changed the car natural turn in. Instead of leaning upon entry of a turn, the car is much more flatter and allows me to press the gas earlier than before since both wheels are more evenly on the floor. Tokico springs are a great match with front konis + rear tokicos. I swear the accord just doubled it's potential by adding konis in the front. I love it!


    Spork, go buy those front konis in the marketplace, you won't regret it.

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    sporkHSP's Avatar
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    errr... I got front konis brand new from a shop in Malaysia like 2 months ago... I got both shipped to my door for $172.00 so, I 'm pretty happy with my deal.
    garagement racing

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    Busted_Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sporkHSP
    errr... I got front konis brand new from a shop in Malaysia like 2 months ago... I got both shipped to my door for $172.00 so, I 'm pretty happy with my deal.
    sorry, forgot.

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    LX User mr eff's Avatar
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    you also drove my car when the front suspension was broken and all blown motor mounts :P

    i haven't driven anything other than konis (middle rebound settings) and H&Rs and blown stock suspension components. that being said, the "soft" H&Rs are definitely not a challenge to control for the struts. they are, however, a rediculous improvement in handling and only a mild change in ride quality.

    you can't easily build a car that's super comfortable and performs superbly. just choose accordingly!
    Chris

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    Re: Eibach pro kit Vs H&R

    I know this thread is old but recently I came accross to a deal where I can get Pro Kit at good price. I have been riding on H&R Sports line last two years with front Koni, Rear Bilstein and I like the set up. Only problems I have is that it sits a bit too low and have problem going through speed bump - my middle silencer scratches if the bump is high. Also, ride wise, when I hit gap or, speed bump, the shock is pretty harsh. I know these are minor trade in if I have sports spring but if possible, I want improve by sitting a bit high, say half inch, and slightly flexible ride.

    I have searched through this site to find you guys opion on Eibach Pro Kit however, may be due to its strange rear spring rate, I don't see much positive or detailed impression/review compare to H&R. Strangely, on other cars owners forum, Eibach Pro Kit is very popullar over H&R. I know it depend on the car but, I want to know more voice from owners with Eibach Pro Kit on our car. The rate is indeed very unusual but, as we all know, we can't tell these things only from the numbers - thats why there is a job like test driver.

    If you have Pro Kit on your car, I would appreciate your comment with what shock you use, positive and negative aspect of the product. What I am particularly interested in are

    •handling - if the understeer is very strong as people commented
    •ride confort compare to stock - spring rate wise front is higher than H&R but, well?
    •if the front becomes high than rear
    •If the spring suggs over the years

    Cheers
    Last edited by epic1400cs; 07-31-2007 at 01:17 AM.

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    Re: Eibach pro kit Vs H&R

    well i have eibach sportsline but they also have odd spring rates

    eibach sportline all around
    koni in front
    tokico in rear

    overall ride is good though the rear could use more control (i blame the tokicos) i dont have problems with understeer

    the front end is definitely much lower than the back end.. the car almost looks tilted forward a tint bit


    i'm pretty happy with my eibachs

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    Re: Eibach pro kit Vs H&R

    yeah i have sportlines on my dx and the tokicos cant handle them....i have nuspeed and tokicos on my lx-i and the ride is better. i still want to lower the front a lil more since the rear looks ugly

    1989 Honda Accord LX-i
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    Redzone tuned

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    Re: Eibach pro kit Vs H&R

    I have Eibach Pro-Kits and Bilsteins, which are stock in the rear and revalved to 110 compression / 340 rebound in the front. I haven't driven any other car except mine, so I can't directly compare, but I will say that I am really happy with how mine has turned out. Originally, the fronts were 100/300, and there was still a slight overbounce, so I had them revalved again. I do not have more understeer than I would like, actually the car lets go very evenly when it finally goes. I think tires are very important here too. I have Dunlop Sport SP2 I think. My choices aren't great because I have the stock 14 rims. I can't comment on the relatively soft springs in the back, because I seldom have people back there. But I have heard horror stories of rock-like rear shocks, and mine certainly is fine, with no bouncing.

    Originally I thought if I would do it over again I would get the Sportlines, for another 1/2" drop, but they're putting in high speed bumps around my town now, and on some of them, even going over diagonally, there's a faint scraping, so 1" is enough. Car washes are another problem if you get too low. I don't know what the Ferrari crowd does with the speed bumps.
    Last edited by w261w261; 07-31-2007 at 10:05 AM.

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    epic1400cs's Avatar
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    Re: Eibach pro kit Vs H&R

    Quote Originally Posted by w261w261
    Originally, the fronts were 100/300, and there was still a slight overbounce, so I had them revalved again. I do not have more understeer than I would like, actually the car lets go very evenly when it finally goes. I think tires are very important here too. I have Dunlop Sport SP2 I think. My choices aren't great because I have the stock 14 rims. I can't comment on the relatively soft springs in the back, because I seldom have people back there. But I have heard horror stories of rock-like rear shocks, and mine certainly is fine, with no bouncing.
    I have read that you revalved twice that must be hard but great that you got this good setting finally. As you pointed out, 14inch wheel seems to be another key factor to keep the character of the steering of our car - some people complained that over 15inch (=low profile tyre) makes the steering too sensitive to groove on the road surface or the car not to go straight, etc. It might be to do with the negative camber caused by the drop so I need to figure out by try and error.
    If you compare with stock, how is the ride confort? In my case, we have speed bump everywhere in town and the size of it is like 3 foot square and 5 inch heigh, a bit like baseball pitcher's mound in square shape made out of asphalt. With normal spring I could go through with rather usual residencial area driving speed, say like 20 miles/h. But with my current H&R setting, I definately have to reduce to less than 10 miles/h to go through otherwise there is very unconfortable shock to going up the bump and coming down from it.
    I am wondering this is because there is very little free play for the tight pitch(low spring rate) part of coil so once there is something bumpy on the road surface, the tight pitch is squashed very soon and wide pitch part(high spring rate) of the spring gets squashed. So it is as if I am driving on the higher rate spring - I might be wrong.
    Even if the spring rate is high on the Pro-Kit, if the tight pitch part is wider than H&R, there is enough freeplayto absorb the small bumps on the road so as a result it may give smoother ride - it is just my wishful thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by w261w261
    Originally I thought if I would do it over again I would get the Sportlines, for another 1/2" drop, but they're putting in high speed bumps around my town now, and on some of them, even going over diagonally, there's a faint scraping, so 1" is enough. Car washes are another problem if you get too low. I don't know what the Ferrari crowd does with the speed bumps.
    I think I am in the simillar situation - I like lowering in general but if I can't drive same speed as pensioner's old bangers with normal spring, I find it almost pathetic to have sports suspension which should help the car to give higher cornering speed!
    I know there is a kind of point where I have to compromise. However, there are lot of cars with flexible suspension than my set up but turning the cornerbetter than mine - say some contemporary sports saloons. With our cars magic double wish bone set up, we should be able to set up better than that, well, I wish.

    Frantic and Messy, thanks for your comments, too.
    Last edited by epic1400cs; 07-31-2007 at 12:16 PM.

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    Re: Eibach pro kit Vs H&R

    This whole thing with the big wheel / little sidewall tire started because the sports car bunch wanted to improve steering response. The best way to do that was to go to a low-aspect tire, so the sidewall would be narrow and there would be less "squirm." This is true, but the cost was an increase in so-called "tramlining," or the tendency of the car to follow longitudinal lines in the pavement. Also, because the sidewalls are narrow, there isn't much room to deflect when the tire hits a bump, so ride quality goes down.

    As wheels got bigger and aspect ratios got smaller, it became a fashion statement. Taken to absurdity, you now have SUV's with monster wheels with slim tires. Unsprung weight is way up, tire compliance is way down, but the look is what is currently in, so who cares?

    The Accord original 14" wheel is great for comfort, and with the right rubber does a good job at road-holding. But, like I said, there aren't too many tire makers going after the 14" market any more. 15" is better for availability, and I have thought about going there, but I like my old-school SE-i wheels.
    Our cars have a great suspension setup, which I think does very well for itself, particularly when you have good rubber, are lowered and have good performance shocks. But let's face it, we aren't driving Porches. I will say this, however, there have been a few times when, in a situation where I don't need a lot of power, people in "better" cars have not been able to keep up with me around corners. I drive a lot on the local roads, and I know almost exactly how fast I can go in a given turn. It's probably not a nice thing to do, but if someone is on my ass, I have been able to suck them into following me into a curve which is usually too much for them and their OEM tires. The fright usually makes them drop waaaaay back when they almost wreck. It must be embarrassing to be humiliated by what looks like this old Accord, particularly when you know that you could blow it away on the straight (but we weren't on the straight were we...sucka!)
    Last edited by w261w261; 07-31-2007 at 01:05 PM.

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    Re: Eibach pro kit Vs H&R

    my car is pretty impressive through the bends with all-round koni + ground control sleeve coilovers. the rear rides quite a bit higher than the front though. other than the rear ride height i am incredibly satisfied with this setup. very stiff but definitely comfortable still, takes bumps fairly well at this ride height and alignment seems good with my OEM 14" alloys.

    i'm looking into some rota rb panasport wheels in 15 or 16 inch and i'm not sure if i'll need to camber or not. ???

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    Re: Eibach pro kit Vs H&R

    Quote Originally Posted by w261w261
    As wheels got bigger and aspect ratios got smaller, it became a fashion statement. Taken to absurdity, you now have SUV's with monster wheels with slim tires. Unsprung weight is way up, tire compliance is way down, but the look is what is currently in, so who cares?
    I agree. Other factor was that the power output became increasingly big esp. with turbo in 70's and there is a demand to accomodate big diameter of disk brake within the rim without changing the over all diameter of tire. To do so naturally they needed to invent low profile tyre. It is a bit sad to see small disk brake sitting inside 18inch alloy wheel these days.

    Anyway, how about the ride confort? Can you go through the speed bump or rough road without jumping up?

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    epic1400cs's Avatar
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    Re: Eibach pro kit Vs H&R

    Quote Originally Posted by frantik
    well i have eibach sportsline but they also have odd spring rates

    eibach sportline all around
    koni in front
    tokico in rear

    overall ride is good though the rear could use more control (i blame the tokicos) i dont have problems with understeer

    the front end is definitely much lower than the back end.. the car almost looks tilted forward a tint bit


    i'm pretty happy with my eibachs
    Thanks for your input. I see that Eibach Sportsline also have simillar set up as Pro-Kits except the ride height.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jims 86LXI HB
    Eibach sp lines front 62% rear -32% (low figure double verified)
    Eibach prokits front 44% rear -17%
    *See note below on eibach spring rates

    Neuspeed&
    H&R 1.5" front 26% rear 41% (softest lowering spring ava.)

    *After talking to eibach to find out how to rate the prokit's they said that the first spring rate they gave me should be equal to how the other spring makers gave out their spring rates. So, the prokits are front 308lbs to 742lbs rear 97lbs to 200lbs. The first numbers are with the car's weight resting on the springs. The second number when the spring is fully compressed. It should be noted that with the sportlines the absolute max stiffness their rear springs can do is only 21% stiffer than stock and that's when the spring is full compressed. Most aftermarket rear springs start off being stiffer without being compressed at all.
    I have a question to ask you - when you approach to speed bump or anything like that, do you get noticable shock compare to stock? I know this is subjective but am interested in to know.

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    Re: Eibach pro kit Vs H&R

    I have a question to ask you - when you approach to speed bump or anything like that, do you get noticable shock compare to stock? I know this is subjective but am interested in to know.
    when i first installed the shocks & springs the ride was really really rough, though it's gotten somewhat better now that they're broken in. I take speed bumps and dips sideways now and it's much smoother than hitting them straight on

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    Re: Eibach pro kit Vs H&R

    The town of Westport, CT has a bunch of speed "humps" that are supposed to slow down traffic. They are kind of flattened speed bumps. With my 1" drop Eibach / Bilsteins, I can go over them at 30 mph just fine. They're not tall enough to mess with the undercarriage, and the stiff shocks and springs keep the nose from scraping on exit.

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    epic1400cs's Avatar
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    Re: Eibach pro kit Vs H&R

    Cheers, guys! Sounds good.

    Last night I have ordered the Pro-Kit, it was on ebay Germany and the price is about the half of the full price so I believe it is a bargain.
    I will match them up with KONIs that are sittign in my cabinet almost one year.

    Frantic, how many turns did you give to your front KONI? May be one full turn?

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    Re: Eibach pro kit Vs H&R

    i followed the installation instructions which said *i think* to turn it all the way to full, then turn a half turn softer

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