Another engine rebuild thread... check it out

[bobafett]

well this isnt so much of a question thread or anything, just a place for me to keep track of my plans, and update it as i aquire parts etc...

Heres the plan:
My motor has 263,000 hard miles on it, and it smokes like a crackhead while driving i can sometimes see smoke trail out the back as i get to higher rpms too; so I think my valve guides and possibly rings are starting to complain.

mods i have now:
Delta 272 cam
DC Sports Header
2.5" High flow cat
2.25 Catback exhaust
MSD Plug wires, and coil, and msd 6A module (would like 6al for the limiter function, but i can live without it)
Cold air intake
lame 4g map sensor mod

anyway, its a decent start...

rebuild strategy
i want to make a little more power with the car this time around, so i am gonna spend a bit more money to "do it right" and get some headwork done while i am at it.

head
- buy lowtek's 8000rpm valve springs
- titanium retainers
- forged valves

OR

- try rjudgey strategy of using exhaust valves/springs on the intake side, and getting custom exhaust valves and springs made.

- get intake bored to accept TB
- get head matched to the b16 intake
- 3angle valve grind
- port the head out!
- talk to delta about a bigger cam than 272

bottom end

- king tri-metal main and rod bearings
- high volume oil pump
- high volume water pump?
- bored .040 cause the block had some scarring.
- eagle h-beam rods
- diamond forged pistons (havent decided on target compression ratio
- balancing and blueprint the rotating assembly.

misc

- i havent found one, but that adjustable cam gear may be neccessary..
- the whole bit is going to be cryo treated and hopefully that will help me out! im not paying for much of the cryo treatment. my stepdad is using the a20 as a guinea pig! heehe
- shooting for 160-170whp NA with this... i am a little hopefully. but i think those are convservatively realistic numbers. also im considering turboing it, since i'll already have so much into the setup. on the other hand its a hardcore daily driver, so i may go high comp NA, just for longevity's sake.

----------------------------
mods purchased so far for the project

$150 - lightened flywheel
$130 - AEBS b16 intake manifold
$285 - BBK 68mm throttle body
$270 - Spec stage 3 clutch
$370 - b18ab non-vtec rods
$125 - prelude tranny
titanium valve seats
dual wound high compression valve springs
forged valves all around
high flow oil pump

-----------------------------

[Busted_Blue]

sounds good. I'm curious how are you going to access all these parts? especially for the head.

With those mods I think an ACT HD-SS is good enough for your application in terms of clutch kit. It is an organic street disc. I think they go for about 300bucks or so, just shop around.

[bobafett]

well wayne, lowtek, on this forum, bought a shit load of parts to turbo his accord, but now he is going with a corolla lol.

he has those parts i listed: forged valves, high compression dual springs, titanium retainers, and toga/toda (cant remember what the brand is) oil pump.


really the only parts im worried about getting are the cam gear and the premium bearings, i know u can find high flow oil pumps, plus my buddy has one i can buy from him.

ps i might run a 55-75 shot on here if the motor feels good and strong..

thanks for the tip on the clutch. phrenology also recomened a www.zoomclutches.com clutch... about the same price...

as for the pistons, u can order them in the .030 sizes...

im not sure what u think im gonna have trouble finding, hopefully i can round most of this stuff up.

i think most of the cost will just be machine work.

rebuild kit (with pistons rings etc) $400
clutch $300
springs/retainers/valves/oil pump $500
flywheel $150
cam gear, if i can find one $150ish?

machine work??

port work on head
valve grind
shave head

block decked
bore and hone for new pistons
balanced bottom end

if anybody knows where i can find the bearings i would appreciate that info...

[bobafett]

ok, i checked out the clutch... it will hold 200ft/lbs, thats plenty, even witha 55shot, i doubt i would be at 200 ft/lbs.

act lists it at 385, maybe i can find it cheaper somewhere online though

[Strugglebucket]

horsepowerfreaks.com has it for $262. that's where i got mine.

[bobafett]

ACT HD00 - 262
ACT HDSS - 326

lol

[carotman]

Sounds good!

Instead of shaving the dead, you can get it welded inside to raise the compression.

[Strugglebucket]

ACT HD00 - 262
ACT HDSS - 326

lol

whoops.

[Low Tek]

well wayne, lowtek, on this forum, bought a shit load of parts to turbo his accord, but now he is going with a corolla lol.

he has those parts i listed: forged valves, high compression dual springs, titanium retainers, and toga/toda (cant remember what the brand is) oil pump.

whats wrong with corolla... lol.... rear wheel drive baby!!! lol...

theres a place in portland/gresham that will bore/deck for real reasonable.. think they quoted me like $20 a cylinder. and then they do all prep work and fun stuff.. I can get a # if you like

[bobafett]

yeah ill look into it...

i bought my flywheel the other day, so thats the start...

chris said u had a water pump too in that jumble of parts, is that true?

also your gasket set is the felpro one right? does it have the blue head gasket? i think i remember reading somewhere that that was a decent one to have...

[Low Tek]

yeah ill look into it...

i bought my flywheel the other day, so thats the start...

chris said u had a water pump too in that jumble of parts, is that true?

also your gasket set is the felpro one right? does it have the blue head gasket? i think i remember reading somewhere that that was a decent one to have...

I had a water pump, but I sold it on ebay for $25 - I can get you a good deal when you are ready

yea the gasket set is felpro, I would have to look to get the color.

[phrenology]

yeah ill look into it...

i bought my flywheel the other day, so thats the start...

chris said u had a water pump too in that jumble of parts, is that true?

also your gasket set is the felpro one right? does it have the blue head gasket? i think i remember reading somewhere that that was a decent one to have...

I'll find the website for you. You should try a water pump made by CAT that's what I used. It's all aluminum so its lighter and the bearings are real strong. Anyone else try one of these? They make them for A20s.

[bobafett]

very cool.

do you know where i can find better bearing than what i would normally find?

also i can get a good deal on waynes gasket kit, but where can i buy the rest of the parts and not end up with an extra gasket kit? or would it be best to jsut buy the whole complete rebulid kit (with pistons, rings and everything) and then use the better gasket, and better bearings and stuff that i buy seperately?

[bobafett]

OK, got a big update for the accord build:

i ordered a AEBS B16 intake manifold, after a lot of research it's definetly going to be the way to go.
also ordered a 72mm-70mm tapered billet throttle body. the intake manifold is only large enough to go with 65mm tb, so i will have to open that up a bit.

i dropped my spare motor off at dan hall performance, and they checked out the block....

they are certain they can bore it out .040 and it will work (the scarring wasn't too severe) and after decking the block and shaving the head, it will bump up the CR a bit. also they have a stock OEM honda piston that will raise the compression up to 9.3:1, so im hoping to have CR of around 9.5:1.

they are going to have to find some good bearings, clevite doesn't make their tri-metal ones anymore, so they have to track down another source... also im gonna have another cam made from delta, and this one will be shooting for a poewrband of 4000-7500 rpm.

i think thats all the updates i have for now. i will keep this thread up to date though.

[bobafett]

also im gonna look into the diamond piston / eagle b-series rod combination depending on how much it will run me, and how long it will take to get them in...

[5spdaccordlxi]

also im gonna look into the diamond piston / eagle b-series rod combination depending on how much it will run me, and how long it will take to get them in...

sounds like a hot setup man.... i think if i were you i would have chosen to save my money and drop an sr20det into your 240.....but thats just me

[bobafett]

sounds like a hot setup man.... i think if i were you i would have chosen to save my money and drop an sr20det into your 240.....but thats just me

nah im intercooler pipes and a downpipe away from boosted KA24ET setup.. low boost for now... the car is already setup with full suspension and everything. just need to finish the A20 project before i dump more money on the 240 im not an sr fan. to me thats teh same thing as putting a B in an accord. im more about building the stock platform.. meh... oh well..

[Versanick]

if you're getting new OEM pistons, I'd ask them if they can find hypereutectic pistons for the car. hyper-eutectics that fit my jdm b20a were exactly the same price as OEM pistons, but are MUCH harder. many race shops use them as frequently as forged pistons. they don't break.

I wouldn't spend my money on some performance water pump. water pumps are cheap, and if you burn one up, they're not hard or expensive to replace. you can do it yourself without much trouble or time.

the race shop can probably improve the performance of your oil pump.

and my race shop guy says that OEM honda bearings are some of the best bearings you can find. he has clients that race SCCA and when he builds their b16s that rev to 11k++, he uses honda bearings, and massages them for about an hour and a half, which he says makes them properly lubricate and work great right from when they're put in.

b16 manifold would probably be a huge improvement. I would assume that since the head ports on b16's are much better than the a20's, that port matching it would be a boon to performance in some way, no matter what... sounds awesome.

and I definitely wouldn't buy a clutch that's so expensive unless you aren't very good at driving stick. Even if I had a 300hp turbo accord, I'd buy stock clutches to the day that I die. When there's a jolt in the drivetrain, I want the clutch to be what takes the pain, and not my transmission or anything else. http://www.dialaclutch.com has ultra-inexpensive OEM clutches. I'm using an a20 plate on my 200hp+ b20a, and as I know how to take off only revving 1200rpm, and having the clutch pedal released completely before I give throttle after shifting, the clutch is hardly worn. and that's including constantly racing the engine and going to the drags on friday nights, and so on.

but as you like... good luck with the motor, sounds like it's going to be great. I had mine built with the intention of having to never rebuild it for the life of the car. getting the rods shot peened and polished are good procedure too. they're decent forged rods anyway...

[bobafett]

after the shop looked around at the parts, i just have to make sure that the eagle rods for B18AB have enough room to open up the pin end .040 to make room for a 21mm wrist pin. if they do have enough meat, im going with diamond pistons with 1.2mm rings (good for n20 or boost) and forged h-beam rods.

as for the clutch, im still not totally sure, since i have never used anything but OEM, but im gonna have bit more power, and i plan on abusing it. but ur right i would rather cahnge clutch than transmission parts! ill take another few looks around before i buy ...

the ports on b16 are definetly bigger, and with the huge TB and headword im planning on, it should flow really well. shop wants about $650 to port match the manifold to the head, the tb to the manifold, do a valve grind, and work the bowls... not too bad i dont think...

[bobafett]

UPDATE:

ok well i just ordered a couple more parts...

Spec Stage III Clutch

and

Integra B18A LS Non-VTEC Rods

[rjudgey]

Yeah but if you get a cheap OEM clutch they fall apart, if you buy a nice Organic sprung hub it won't break the tranny and will last 50K+ miles, the pressure plates and disks from quality manufacturers are so much better, i've had every clutch under the sun and nothing compares to the Clutchnet one i know have, the valve springs are pocketed in the disk and will never fall out unlike all the others which just have nasty bent bits off steel to hold the springs in, this is by far the weakest area of all the OEM and other high performance Clutch Disks.

As for for the headwork try not to concentrate too much on making the ports bigger, you need to work ont he valve seat shape and getting the air around the valve stem as easily as possible, and also if your running a B16 inlet manifold with a Huge TB i would seriously consider changing you valves to larger ones you can go upto 33mm on the inlets and upto 38mm on the exhaust valves, this will give you the increase in flow to actually work with the inlet manifold and the size of the ports that you will have once it's all matched up, camshaft wise i'd go no less than 285 degree with 11mm lift more ideal would be 290 degree duration on the inlet lobes 11mm lift and 295/300 duration with 12.5-13mm lift on the exhaust will take a little work to get that lift you'd have to machine the valve spring seat down a bit so that it sits a bit lower or just limit it to 11.5-12mm lift this setup would work well with N/A engine and should scream upto 8.5-9K rpm.

[bobafett]

interesting rjudgey! u seem to have some experience in building these, ive seen your comments in a lot of threads.

can u tell me where i can find the oversized valves? im already getting a set of forged valves, but i think they are stock sized. if i can get oversized valves for a good price i would certainly love to do that...

hate to be a newb, but the camshaft numbers dont mean anything to me, i just assume that the higher the numbers (lift, duration etc) the more aggressive the cam profile...

my delta cam is a 272 (degree i assume) but i dont know what the lift on it is...
i need a totally streetable cam profile, i daily drive this car 100 miles a day commuting, would your 285 degree + cam work with a daily driver street driven car? i WAS actually planning on running a more agressive cam, and i know i would have to do some machine work to get a more agressive one to work, which is fine. the machine shop is going to be really really busy with my shit anyway, so i dont have a problem shelling out more money for that work... my concern is PURELY drivability...

but yeah hook me up on info about those valves and more info on the cam and whatnot.. (also i have a newb q, would stock retainers and springs work with oversized valves? cause i was gonna buy those good springs, and Ti retainers from low tek)

[rjudgey]

Well i drove around with a 285 duration cam in mine a for quite a while, yeah idles lumpy but it was okay, if you really not sure 280 duration should be fine maybe go with 280 degrees on the inlet and then say 290 on the exhuast or 275 inlet and 285 exhaust give you a few more hundred rpm's at the top end as well as nice torque curve, the valves ont he exhaust side are forged allready they are some of the best valves money can buy allready, only other is titanium, i can get valves made up from stainless steel about £15 each, I originally used old exhuast valves and machined them to fit in the inlet side of the head, this way you could use the existing exhaust valve springs and platforms which are stronger than the original inlets especially if you have Prelude exhuast springs they are seriously strong. I have about 8 heads so had plenty spare!! Had the guides remachined to the same stem diameter as the exhaust valves and they popped straight in, if you go to my cardomain site you'll see the complete head with exhaust valves installed with exhaust springs attached as well, the only downside was that the exhaust valves and ports were restriciting the flow cause i'd jumped up so much on the inlet side.
Even with a low cam spec such as 280/290 with 11mm lift with 33mm inlet valves and 37/38mm exhaust valves you should see massive gains in flow and power the extra noise the engine made from doing this mod was really noticeable a lot louder. With carbs this mod is good for about another 15-20bhp even more with a better camshaft, but you really need to make sure your getting the right amounts of fuel in or you'll run really lean and start melting pistons.
You only need massive head mods to accomodate a camshaft with 290-300 degree duration with more than 11mm lift so anything less than that you should be fine.

[bobafett]

ok, yeah that is something i will definetly look into. i like the idea of using exhaust valves on the intake side. and just buying a different setup for exhaust valves and springs. where did you find the setup for your larger 37/38mm exhaust valves, and which springs did u use?

im only looking to take this motor to 7500, i woudnt be opposed to 8000, but that just seems to be pushing my luck... have you played with custom pistons, and changing the compression ratio at all? im thinking of jumping up to 10:1. but honestly I'm not sure how to address the tuning on all this. i dont think SAFC will cut it... i think obd1 swap and a cheap standalone like uberdata will be the way to go! then that presents me with a whole pile of other issues!

anymore suggestions? i really appreciate the comments so far!

[rjudgey]

I'd check out Megasquirt all in one package that works very well, can be made up yourself if your good with electronics. You can get a FSE boost valve which is also a adjustable FPR, then you just have to look at bigger injectors etc. Not too hot with injection but learning more working with my B20A.