Discussion , Non-traditional Remote Mounted Turbo Systems

[bigal004321]

i have seen on of those rear mounted turbos... i really dont know if the idea is such a good one...

If you think how turbos work it makes more sense for them to be at the hottest point...

since it takes the super hot air from the exhaust and it leaves quickly to spin the turbine in the turbo causing the fresh air into the car a x psi....

also think why would u want one under the car??? think about it u would need some sort of oil sender to send oil all the way back there and road condidtions say u hit a bump fuck there goes my 5k turbo smashed to bits

This is just my opionion

[mr eff]

heat doesn't increase the velocity of the exhaust, just the volume.. pv = nrt. so you really don't "lose" any turbine-driving power from having the thing mounted back there.

however, sending the charge for a few feet seems as though it would cause lag. also, you're right about the oil, you'll have to figure out a way to make that work.

i dunno, i'm intrigued, it sounds like a decent set up to add without having to rearrange the engine bay extensively. there's pros and cons to any modification

[FyreDaug]

The exhaust gasses are also more dense at the rear as it cools down, so the exhaust stacks up on itself and it would spool quicker. I think anyways

[Justin86]

or even run twin

[ICEMAN707]

justin why are you always smilin' bro? lol. is this what you did to your "tasha" and it works?

anyways, back to topic.

i was thinking of changing the downpipe on my dc header to connect to the turbo. either have the turbo located in the battery location OR that extra space between the transmission and the firewall right below the brake proportioning valve. sorta like the setup for my previous 93 probe gt turbo kit:




with a remote setup, you save space and the turbo will last alot longer since it will be exposed to cooler exhaust temperatures.

[w00tw00t111]

FyreDaug is right. Think back to chemistry class. The colder air is the more dense it is. So there for the more dense the air is before it hits the actual turbo the less the turbo has to do to compress/spool up. Seeing as though some of it's job is already done. I have really really considered this option seeing as though I want to keep my a/c *stupid Houston >(* The biggest problem is the time that it's gonna take for the compressed air to go and reach the intake. The air would have most definatley lost some of its velocity. The only thing that might happen is lets say you program it for 8lbs of boost once the air reaches the engine bay it might have dropped down to 6lbs. So, you would probably have to just account for that. Lag should increase but depending on how the whole system is set up it might not make that much of a differece. Turbo and fuel maps should make a big big difference on how much lag you experience. Also, the mistake that I see a bunch of guys making is their choices in wastegates. I read an article in turbo *i believe* which showed a duel stage wastegate. Us guys go really cheap on those components and seeing as though it was about 500 buckaroos it's out of most budget guys range. The thing that is so awesome about it is the fact that it completely elimates any lag what so-ever *as quoted by Turbo* Basically what happens is you set a really boost level for the first stage so that the turbo reaches it immediately then while your reaching higher and higher rpms it starts building more and more pressure which eventually will push you into the second stage. This is an extremely simplified explanation but, if you want all the technical jargon I can try to dig up the article and scan it for y'all. HKS I believe are the designers of it.

[bigal004321]

right thats what i was trying to say fyre... seems like alot of money on a setup that wouldnt be the most efficient.. not too many people have the setups i was shocked when i heard of it on this guys car i saw...

also one of the cool reason for the turbo is to show people it right? with one of these u would have to be like crawl under my car to check it out.. mind the dirt its good for it :P

[A20A1]

heat doesn't increase the velocity of the exhaust, just the volume.. pv = nrt.

How would you factor in the added volume of running a longer pipe from the manifold to the turbo.

http://www.7stones.com/Homepage/Publisher/Thermo1.html

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[w00tw00t111]

heat will increase pressure obviously but cold will increase volume. In an engine you want more volume not more pressure. But when people talk about psi = pressure per square inch they just forget that the whole reason that you have a turbo is to cram more air into a given amount of space. You want to increase the volume of air not necissarily increase the pressure. B/c as every body knows the more air you have in a given chamber the more fuel you can have and more fuel+ more air = bigger explosion and bigger explosion = more power.

[smufguy]

the rear mount turbos are for engines of higher displacement, like a V8 or a V6 with a 3.5 and up. This is because the there is somethign called boost lag that is associated with longer pipes. Air is not stationary in those pipes and they have the move around. So the rear mount turbos for a 4cyl, 2.0 is not gonna work to the expected level (dont ask me if the motor is build and what not, its just not gonna work).

Higher the temperature, greater the potential energy. As the temperature decreases, the energy of the gases lowers because heat energy is just as any form of energy and once you decrease the energy everything associated with it decreases, as in the pressure and velocity. Think of it as a pressure cooker, when the water in the cooker is cool, there is not much steam or pressure, once it starts to heat up and boil, u see a lot of steam, higher pressure and higher velocity. The same with the exhaust gases, higher the temperature greater the work potential of those gases, even tho there is only so much the exhaust gas temperature (EGT) can go up to before it starts to act negatively on the parts. This is not basic physics but its basic thermodynamics and part of heat laws.

and higher the temperature and dense the gas can never be true even in a controlled volume. so its a bad way to think at it frye. The reason behind it is what i stated in my above paragraph. Its not the dense of the gas, its the greater potential energy and work force of the gas. the way you guys are looking at it is by comparing the charge air being dense and getting more power. LIke Mike (a20a1) has tried to say many times before, colder exhaust gas is not a good worker. Its not gonna make your turbo spool up any faster, to be honest with you, its gonna make your turbo spool up very slow. So stop giving and aiding with wrong and mis informations before you start supporting and promoting it. Its better someone with a thermodynamic of fluid properties and a physics background verify these things before you go and do something irrational.


Final words on the rear mount turbos, dont even attempt, cause if you do, Ill be one of the first ones to laugh at your ass (you here is anyone, no-one in particular).

[A20A1]

The exhaust gasses are also more dense at the rear as it cools down, so the exhaust stacks up on itself and it would spool quicker. I think anyways

I'm just thinking there will be a drop in velocity cause of the longer pipe, but the expansion from the extra volume would cool the exhaust and supposedly the cooler exhaust with their different turbo specs works. But I don't like the idea that the exhaust is moving slower... it may build pressure but isn't it pressure both ways.

If heat effects density... isn't less dense gas easier to move so the velocity would be higher?

[A20A1]

the rear mount turbos are for engines of higher displacement, like a V8 or a V6 with a 3.5 and up. This is because the there is somethign called boost lag that is associated with longer pipes. Air is not stationary in those pipes and they have the move around. So the rear mount turbos for a 4cyl, 2.0 is not gonna work to the expected level (dont ask me if the motor is build and what not, its just not gonna work).

Higher the temperature, greater the potential energy. As the temperature decreases, the energy of the gases lowers because heat energy is just as any form of energy and once you decrease the energy everything associated with it decreases, as in the pressure and velocity. Think of it as a pressure cooker, when the water in the cooker is cool, there is not much steam or pressure, once it starts to heat up and boil, u see a lot of steam, higher pressure and higher velocity. The same with the exhaust gases, higher the temperature greater the work potential of those gases, even tho there is only so much the exhaust gas temperature (EGT) can go up to before it starts to act negatively on the parts. This is not basic physics but its basic thermodynamics and part of heat laws.

and higher the temperature and dense the gas can never be true even in a controlled volume. so its a bad way to think at it frye. The reason behind it is what i stated in my above paragraph. Its not the dense of the gas, its the greater potential energy and work force of the gas. the way you guys are looking at it is by comparing the charge air being dense and getting more power. LIke Mike (a20a1) has tried to say many times before, colder exhaust gas is not a good worker. Its not gonna make your turbo spool up any faster, to be honest with you, its gonna make your turbo spool up very slow. So stop giving and aiding with wrong and mis informations before you start supporting and promoting it. Its better someone with a thermodynamic of fluid properties and a physics background verify these things before you go and do something irrational.


Final words on the rear mount turbos, dont even attempt, cause if you do, Ill be one of the first ones to laugh at your ass (you here is anyone, no-one in particular).

Thanks for posting that.

[NXRacer]

if its not any cheaper then building your own, they why do a remote turbo setup? it is less effecient then a standard turbo setup. the only reason this would be a good idea is if you dont have any room in your engine bay for a turbo setup, which isnt a problem in our cars.

I saw one of those setups on TV or something and it was installed on a new camaro. Seeing how the engine bay in those things is really retarded, i could see how that would be a better option then a standard turbo setup, but kinda pointless on an import that has a TON of extra space.

just my $.02

[ICEMAN707]

i just like the idea of working with what i have. keeping my dc header instead of paying $500+ for a custom turbo manifold. plus like i said, with a remote mounted turbo, it's less likely to be exposed to extreme temps and eventually lead to failure.

[A20A1]

heat will increase pressure obviously but cold will increase volume. In an engine you want more volume not more pressure. But when people talk about psi = pressure per square inch they just forget that the whole reason that you have a turbo is to cram more air into a given amount of space. You want to increase the volume of air not necissarily increase the pressure. B/c as every body knows the more air you have in a given chamber the more fuel you can have and more fuel+ more air = bigger explosion and bigger explosion = more power.

Hypotheticly if there is no pressure gas would just sit in the pipe and the turbine would not spin at all.

A question for both setups rear and front for a 4cylinder motor.

1) How much gas is expelled on the initial firing of the engine
2) How hot is the gas expelled?


I know it's not the temp that makes boost but you have to consider more then the density of the air before the turbo. Do you think a 4cyl is up to the task no matter how dense the charge is.

A denser gas charge is harder to move and you'll increase the motors pumping loss even though you are increasing efficiency by adding a turbo and pressurizing the intake charge. Even then the length of the charge pipes add losses, from friction and weight.

One thing I do like is less heat in the engine bay since that effects a whole lot of things. But putting a turbo near a gas tank... I've had problems with excessive fuel vapor by simply putting an exhaust pipe too close to the tank, I dunno. I hope they sheild the tank real good.

I don't believe the part on the STS site about not adding a header... if you have a restrictive cast manifold from the factory a header would help, a street header, not the large tube high performance headers ment for N/A.

[NXRacer]

turbo's are meant to handle and work with extreme heat. Its one of the working properties of a turbo. As long as you have a correct setup installed, the turbo will last a lot longer then the motor will. Esp if you add an oil cooler and stuff that helps keep the turbo temp down even more.

[Accordtheory]

That squires turbo sytem is sort of an interesting idea. At first, I totally wrote it off as half assed bullshit, but then after spending like half an hour on their site, I am impressed. They are right as far as the volume of exhaust gas driving the turbo is the same, but heat=volume=velocity=more energy..a conventional system IS more efficient. However, what difference does it really make? They are still putting down some damn good numbers. But for a car like an integra, I would do what all those guys on honda-tech.com are doing and use something like a top mount turbo header and a big ass sc61. I also find myself wondering how hot the rest of the exhaust system gets, and I don't like the idea of that long ass intake tubing.

[ICEMAN707]

i was skeptical of a remote mounted turbo too until i read this article:

....mounting the turbocharger and
related hardware somewhere dse
in the car, like at the rear of the
vehicle, can be out of necessity
and can drastically minimize
the installation complexity due
to the fact that it's easier to
install.
Naturally, considering such
a setup raises a number of
questions; that's to be expected.
What about potential turbo lag
and pressure drop that would
normally be associatedwith
lengthy turbo plumbing from
the turbo to the throttle body?
How do you lubricate the turbo
with it located so far away from
the engine? How much power
would this kit develop? How
does the boost control work? All
of these, and perhaps others,
are relevant questions, and we
had the same questions when
we first learned of such a
unique product. Heres what
we've learned.
Squires Turbo Systems
(STS) was founded by Rick
Squires in January of 2003, and
it designed and patented the
remote-mounted turbo system.
Squires identified both the need
and the opportunity to use the
benefits of turbocharging in a
much friendlier turbo environ-
ment, and STShas done this
for both cars and trucks. Using
his 20 years of forced induction
experience, a: Squires and his
group developed the STS
Remote Turbo System so that
anyone, regardless of their
application, could experience a
gain of up to 60 percent in
horsepower without additional
or major modifications to the
engine. We thought that this
would be an ideal case and not
every installation would realize
such gains, but one of the reasons
the STS Remote Mount
Turbo System is said to work so
well is because one of the more
detrimental elements to performance
is removed from the
equation: heat.
For starters, having the turbocharger
mounted outside of a
hot engine compartment where
airflow is impeded as a result of
being cramped and nestled
between and behind radiators,
shrouds, gussets and engine
accessories can make it increasingly
difficult for a turbocharger
to operate. Naturally, this does
not make for such a turbofriendly
environment. And this
is especially true when compared
to an install where the turbo has
adequate room and is surrounded
by cool ambient air.
Remember also that unless the
turbo is fed cool outside air, this
is the same environment as a
turbocharger airflow drawn and
processed through a turbo compressor:
hot air going in and
hotter air going out, even with
an intercooler. Cooler air will
also extend the life of the oil, and it is engine oil
that lubricates the turbo bearings.
The unique patented oil system STS developed
also uses the oil from the engine just like a
conventional engine-mounted turbo, but this
system incorporates an;lectric oil pump
mounted underneath the car.An adapter is
installed at the oil filter source, and after the oil
cools the turbo bearings, pressurized oil returns
to the engine via a specially modified cap with a
quick-disconnect fitting at the valve cover. Oil is
cooled on its way to and from the turbo since it
must now travel underneath the vehicle where
the oil line surface is subjected to cooler air. The
same is true for the intake piping from the turbo
to the throttle body. This may seem confusing to
some tuners since most ~nstall plans have been
devised to make intercooler piping as short as
possible (to minimize turbo lag). This train of
thought now differs, as air traveling through IS
feet of intake tubing should make for a turbolag-
prone engine. At least that is the natural
conclusion and has been the result of past experience.
The length of the intake piping can and
does contribute to turbo lag, but this is not the
only conn-oiling factor. as the design of the turbine
itself has a great effect on such delays and,
by design, helps offset lag. Considering that the
air charge still must travel from the turbo to the
throttle body. a properly sized turbo can have
minimal lag. or so we are told. In fact, Squires
compensates for the 2s-percent loss in exhaust
volume associated with a remote mount system
by employing a carefully designed turbine for
each application.
The other question asked by people who are
first exposed to such a system is generally in
regards to intake air temperature. How is this
air cooled. and does it differ from a conventional
design? With the STS turbo system, nearly 90
percent of the intake piping is exposed to the
ambient air underneath the vehicle. and this
exposure acts as a sort of intercooler but with-
out the pressure drop. With an
ambient air temperature of 60
degrees Fahrenheit, the air temperature
at the turbo outlet is
approximately 175degrees. This
cools to a more reasonable temp due
to its journey through the inlet
tubing. The intake tubing is
treated with an HPC coating
that dissipates heat, further aiding
the cooling of the intake
charge. The exhaust piping is
also coated with HPC, which
helps it to retain the heat necessary
for proper turbo operation.
Driving Impression
We drove this system, and
found it to perform exceptionally
well for its intended use. For our
driving impression, we experienced
the performance of the
STS turbo system installed on a
'00 Acura Integra Type-R. Of
course we were skeptical, as the
first thing on our minds when
we climbed into the seat of the
STS-equipped Integra was that
there was no possible way that
the car could respond nearly as
well as an engine-mounted
turbo. We figured the throttle
response would be dampened,
but we were wrong, as power
delivery was almost immediate
with little to no lag. The driving
test consisted of a drag-style
launch from a standstill through
a short straight section and then
through a couple of chicanes
before heading into a long
sweeper. The course was
designed to put the car and the
turbo system through an "extreme case" pace
to exhibit the overall operating characteristics
of the STS turbo system. When launched
from a standstill, the boost in the Type-R
came on quickly, and the car pulled strong all
the way to redline.]ach shift placed you
smack in the middle of the power band
where boost would build quickly-and it
did.
As we drove the car through the chicanes,
the throttle was modulated, and the
engine responded as quickly as you toyed the
throttle. This removed any doubts of dampened
engine (throttle) response, and we were
pleasantly surprised. Heading toward the
long sweeper, we were able to test the linearity
of the STS turbo system by allowing the
turbo to build boost by rolling on the throttle.
Again, the STS system delivered the
goods just fine by building boost at a linear
and predictable manner and without the
unpredictable (Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde)
response of some engine mount systems.
The STS system produced torque reminiscent
of a high-output V-6 (at least thats
what it felt like), and torque delivery was virtually
seamless-the engine continued to
pull until redline, and it did this consistently.
We ran out of road long before we ran out
of power.
Needless to say, from our limited experience,
the STS turbo system rocks when it
comes to power delivery. And the rearmounted
turbo system allows you to enjoy
all the great sounds associated with boosting
an engine without it being drowned out by a
loud, obnoxious silencer (the turbo replaces
this piece of equipment). This setup will get
you noticed, as its just loud enough to raise
the eyebrows of fellow onlookers but not law
enforcement.
Since none of the pollution control
devices that come with newer cars need to be
removed or modified during this installation,
theres no worry about the legality of
such a system. The STS turbo system is
mounted after the catalytic converters, and
since the turbo acts as a muffler, theres no
worry about noise pollution. The STS turbo
system is 50-state CARB legal (CARB
exemption pending), which is good news for
those of you who live in a state where smog
testing is performed. The STS turbo definite-
Iyexceeded our expectations and shattered
any preconceived notions we had about such
a system. And what impressed us the most
was the power output of the STS-equipped
Integra Type-R; with the wastegate set at 10
psi, the engine produced over 300 hp at the
wheels.
The STS turbo system produces great
power and performs better than imagined,
and one of the most appealing aspects of the
system in addition to its performance is its
simplicity. A capable technician can install
the STS turbo system in approximately 4-6
hours, which is a terrific turnaround when
turbocharging a vehicle. Initially, STS only
had applications for select trUcks, sport utility
vehicles, F-body platforms and the new
Pontiac GTO, but by the time you read this,
STS will have kits available for Honda and
Acura applications. Imagine this system
installed in a lightWeight Civic hatchback
with a built engine, ported head and a set of
hot camshafts. It would be a force to be reckoned
with, thats for sure.
STS also offers a variety of upgrades that
will help elevate the level of performance of
its system: methanol injection, GT Turbo
upgrade, intercoolers and CARB-Iegal modifications.
This rather unique turbo system
may possibly be the solution for newer vehicles
that aren't friendly to forced induction
due to their complex fuel systems or
overzealous emission control units. As STS
expands its offerings in the sport compact
market, more tuner enthusiasts who were
previously ignored by mainstream turbocharging
specialists will be boosting with
the best of them. With a price tag in the
$4,000 area, the STS remote turbo system is
competitively priced with many mainstream
systems on the market, only this is one very
unique system.

[ICEMAN707]

rather than have the turbos hanging under the rear of the car, put them in the trunk so they wont be exposed to the elements like rain and dust.

haha imagine running twin turbos in your trunk, with plumbing from underneath. cut out some side scoops on the side trunk panels to cool the turbos even more and ram air for the intake. enclose the turbos with custom heat insulated removable metal boxes/enclosures with only the intake inlets sticking out into the trunk each with cone filters. this in itself will defy all the myths of turbo intallation.

imagine two blow off valves going off in your trunk (although you'd want the BOV close to the throttle body). but regardless, that's gotta be a sight to see and hear. not to mention along with your trunk relocated battery and a NOS bottle or two. what next? remote electric powered a/c as opposed to pulley powered?

[A20A1]

turbo's are meant to handle and work with extreme heat. Its one of the working properties of a turbo. As long as you have a correct setup installed, the turbo will last a lot longer then the motor will. Esp if you add an oil cooler and stuff that helps keep the turbo temp down even more.

"The exhaust piping is also coated with HPC, which helps it to retain the heat necessary for proper turbo operation."

"And what impressed us the most
was the power output of the STS-equipped
Integra Type-R; with the wastegate set at 10
psi, the engine produced over 300 hp at the
wheels."

Those are good numbers but I assume it's not a stock teg B18C5... or if it is not many people own a B18C5. I also don't know what RPM the 300hp came at and what the rest of the HP and TQ curves looked like.


In no way have I said the STS doesn't work... I'm trying to point out specific areas that might need more attention. There is more then one way to skin a cat as they say. It's good to have information about these things so you can weigh your options.




I'd rather keep the turbo cool as well as the engine bay but still retain heat inside the exhaust pipes leading to and from the turbo. The only reason for keeping the turbo cool as possible would be to help the compressor side of the turbo keep the air cooler. As long as the turbo is far from the radiator and intercooler you're not reheading the intercooled air with the turbo being so close.

I wouldn't mount the turbo as far back as they do, but I woudln't want to butt the turbo near the radiator or any other part of the motor.
I would install the turbo where the battery was and carefully plumb the upper radiator hose.

The plumbing for the charge pipes would be simmilar to most front mounts and may even be shorter... the down pipe would be longer to connect to a full exhaust system but thats after the turbo and it doesn't matter as much.

[ICEMAN707]

i guess the only way to find out is to try. marioburke is installing his turbo at the downpipe so we'll see how that goes.

I am gonna go a rear motor turbo first to see if it works. there are various reason behind this I do not feel like discussing at the moment

go mario!

[Accordtheory]

the squires system does have a significant advantage when it comes to smog legality, I'll definitely give it that..

[NXRacer]

veewwwyyyy veewwwyyyy intewesting

[PikesPeak3G]

rather than have the turbos hanging under the rear of the car, put them in the trunk so they wont be exposed to the elements like rain and dust.

haha imagine running twin turbos in your trunk, with plumbing from underneath. cut out some side scoops on the side trunk panels to cool the turbos even more and ram air for the intake. enclose the turbos with custom heat insulated removable metal boxes/enclosures with only the intake inlets sticking out into the trunk each with cone filters. this in itself will defy all the myths of turbo intallation.

imagine two blow off valves going off in your trunk (although you'd want the BOV close to the throttle body). but regardless, that's gotta be a sight to see and hear. not to mention along with your trunk relocated battery and a NOS bottle or two. what next? remote electric powered a/c as opposed to pulley powered?

Ive been contemplating doing just that on my LXi just for R&D. Also instead of running an oil line all the way back to the front of the car why not a remote tank with a pump just dedicated for the turbo, also in the trunk area. Then you could also run an oil cooler if you wanted or use a different viscocity oil. Just thinking outside the box.

[ICEMAN707]

yeah a separate oil tank and pump would be a good idea. no hot and dirty engine oil going into the turbo. keeps it cooler and cleaner.

also the reason i pick the 2 twin turbos from 3000gt's and 300zx's is cus they are smaller and spool up faster despite the long exhaust pipe to the back. and with two of them working together, boost pressure should be pretty good.