Maybe a bent frame, I need some advice.

[Vector]

Since I have gotten this car, it has always pulled to the right under heavy acceleration and drifted alittle that way when cruising. It was lowered before I got it and does not look like the springs are cut, And I measured them today with car jacked up and they all seem to be the same height on both sides (9"front, 10" rear).


So I take the car to a buddies shop that has a wheel alignment machine to check the and camber of the wheels and front right is -2.57 left, and -2.97 right. Toe is apparently perfect when the steering wheel is straight, he thinks someone already did this.
Guess the more negative camber on the right front could make it pull more to the right under heavy acceleration due to slightly bigger foot print on the left??.


The car also apears to be higher on the front passenger side than drivers to by .5". I wasnt sure how to measure, So I did from fender to top of rim on both sides.


I guess I will be swaping to prelude upper control arms if I want them to be adjustable.
I am getting new tires soon on some ASM 16"x7" mag rims i bought for 80 bucks for the set. I will do more testing once I get these as they are all the same, right now I have 2 different pairs on my car back and front.


Sorry for the long post, but i'm getting bored of looking for posibilities besides a bent frame which would suck as i'm not ready to rid of this car yet.

ps. I have checked all control arms, sway bars(appears to have small one on the back) , bushings, mounts. Anything that could cause this.

[Vector]

Of course if it is bent, i could always shave either of the front springs to make it sorta level lol

[Acid X]

That's a whole lotta camber. Is the car still lowered? If so then that's probably why.. You really cant fix camber without upper control arms.

If its NOT lowered, then thats a lot of camber for stock.

Anywho, as far as it being higher on one side, make sure all of the nuts at the top of the struts are as tight as they can be... Other than that, maybe you have mismatched springs...

[Vector]

yea car is lowered 2.5" I think, its pretty low, i cant even get a floor jack under the front of it in the middle to jack it up, have to drive on 2x4s

http://www.kelownaimports.com my car is in the banner.

[AZmike]

It looks like nothing is bent--the camber is only 0.3 degrees different left to right. Since the upper control arms are shorter than the lower control arms lowering the car increases negative camber. Prelude upper control arms may not have enough adjustability depending on what camber setting you're trying to achieve for the front.

[Vector]

-1 maybe -1.5 at the most, i had no idea, why only pull to the right tho, why not the left if road conditions change.
maybe my fat ass is throwing it off

ps. forgot to mention, tires seem to be wearing evenly even tho its hard for me to tell since i've only had the car for about 3-4 months, or do you mean wear right away.

[AZmike]

What are the caster numbers left and right? That has a larger impact on steering pull and effort than camber.

[Poodlehead]

I've got an 87 DX and the front right smacked a curb pretty hard. The car pulls real hard to the right now and I had it aligned the best I could. Specs ended up being:

L R
Camber -1.04 1.05
Caster -.66 -1.16
Toe .02 .02

Cross Camber -2.11
Cross Caster .5
Total Toe .04

He showed me where the mount on the frame for the lower control arm on the right side got bent so my question is if there is a lower control arm from a different model that would be slightly longer than on my 87 DX Hatchback? If not, any other ideas besides getting the frame straightened. My arms are getting stronger holding the car straight.... Thanks!

[AZmike]

It sounds like a set of front subframes from a junkyard and another alignment would solve your problem.

[Poodlehead]

Hate to be so ignorant, but exactly what part is the 'front subframe'? I assume this is not a bolt in/out thing but more of a welding project?

If so, I may attempt to drill out the existing hole with lock nut, put a one sided bushing in there to kick the mounting point for the lower arm farther out and see what happens... Sound practical, but I usually over simplify things until I get into it...

[AZmike]

There are two parts that I would call subframes on the front of the third generation Accord. The radius rods connect to the first one (crosses below radiator). The steering rack is bolted to the other one. Together they locate your lower control arms. An offset bushing may work--I don't know how severe the damage is.

[Poodlehead]

Thanks for the info, I'll take a closer look when I jack the car up this weekend. I'm guessing where the lower control arm mounts to the subframe that it's caved inward about 1/4-1/2 inch. So far the only offset bushings I've found are for the upper part of the car.

I'd like to drill out the hole on the sub-frame where I could move the mount point for the lower control arm outward, but I suspect I'll be 'golden showering' myself... I'll do a lot of thinking about it before I do anything. Thanks!

[Poodlehead]

I'm toying with the idea of taking the car to a body shop to put it on a frame alignment machine to pull the subframe out. I'm not real wild about that idea, but it looks like changing the subframe above the steering rack is a major PITA!

I know the steering rack would need to be lowered, but would I have to remove the PS hoses and/or the entire rack from the car? Is there much else to it? If not, I am leaning toward buying a new subframe (haven't priced it yet) so I know it's not bent. Thanks a bunch! Pat

[AZmike]

I picked up both front subframes including a steering rack for $45 at a pick-a-part junkyard. Whether you keep your rack or swap in another, changing out that subframe is a lot of work. I'm not sure what frame shops charge--at least shop around so you can make an informed decision.

[Poodlehead]

I checked out a couple places and got quotes from $200-$300 to straighten it, if they can. They say they have to put it up on the lift to check it out first. Anyway, I'm going to have it checked out on Tuesday. I will let everyone know what happens later next week.

[Ichiban]

You'd be better off changing the cross-member and dealing with PS hoses and stuff than having a shop straighten it. If you have a hoist and an impact dropping the rear cross member is really not that hard. Just make sure you support the engine as you remove it. I'd rather replace it for cheaper than pay more to drive around on a "previously bent, now hammered back into shape" thing that holds my wheels on.

[Versanick]

I smacked a curb going 45 with the wheel turned at a 45 degree angle, sliding, and my frame was bent out of shape on the right side by 3". It needed to be 'pulled', and was pulled at a shop for $100. I was impressed. They told me anywhere between real cheap and $300 depending on how off it was.

[88Accord-DX]

I hit a curb pretty hard years ago. I end up bending the lower control arm & blowing out my radius rod bushings. I had some serious toe & one of my tires was pushed back about 2 inches. Well, I fixed all that for about $90 in parts. I do all my work myself. That lower control arm bushing didn't come out for me, had to torch it in half.
If you think you bend the frame, there are frame shops that specialize in straightening it out.

[Poodlehead]

Well the shop looked at it today and said they wouldn't try bending it because it was pushed in and twisted. They were afraid it would still be off after attempting to straighten it. Their labor to replace the subframe showed 6.8 hours and a new subframe for $400. I haven't priced one from the JY yet, but around here most stuff is about half price of new.

Needless to say, I will price from the JY and look at doing it myself. I don't have a hoist, but I do have air tools and hopefully I can figure out a way to support the motor from the bottom. It's been a while since I've looked at it, but I'm wondering if it's possible to lower the rack enough without unhooking the hoses to replace the subframe. Oh well, it it's not one thing it's another. Thanks everyone for your suggestions/experience. Pat

[Poodlehead]

Well I got a subframe at the JY for $75, installed it without much trouble. It's really not much worse than changing out the rack. Anyway I eyeballed the alignment. Once I put new tires on, it had a 'slight' pull to the left so I got it aligned this morning. I only put 3 miles on the new tires before the alignment.

The Bozo doing the alignment said the caster and camber were not adjustable. I said,wrong pal, you can adjust the caster. Anyway he put all his alignment heads on all 4 wheels and the bottom line is the toe was off (I forget how much now), so he adjusted that and the numbers ended up at:

L R
-1.03 ? - in spec Camber
-.3 +.5 Caster
-.01 -.01 Toe

I 'splained' to them how to adjust the caster, but he said those numbers were 'perfect'. He said you want a +/- diff between sides and the right side should be positive to account for the crown in the road. I'm thinking to myself that dead nuts 'zero' would be perfect, but I stayed quiet and thought I'd ask the experts before I blow. Also Bozo couldn't print out the info because their printer had been broken for 6 months so the numbers above are from memory...

Now the car still pulls to the left by about the same amount. Does the pull to the left make sense based off the caster settings? Wouldnt I want 'zero' for ideal settings? To get closer, would I adjust the radius rods so the right wheel moves back and the left wheel moves forward?

Would replacing the struts resolve the camber setting? Thanks for all the help/advice.

[AZmike]

The pull is reasonable based on your settings, but I can't do the math wtithout knowing more of the steering and suspension geometry. Shortening the radius rod will add positive caster. It will reduce your negative camber and may also change your toe somewhat. Personally I prefer to set to the maximum caster setting that can be equal on both sides. You get somewhat higher steering effort and the steering has a stronger tendancy to self-center.

Replacing the shocks is not likely to change your camber unless your ride height changes (higher--> less negative camber).

[Poodlehead]

I'm not sure what you mean about knowing more of the steering and suspension geometry to do the math. As far as I know it has all stock suspension with 96K miles on it. I will measure the height between the 2 front wheel wells and assume if the wheel well on the left side is lower than the right side, that could be due to a compressed strut on the left side which could cause my negative camber on the left side?

I did some reading on alignment theory and it seems like negative caster is when the upper ball joint is more rearward than the lower ball joint. If that is true, shortening the radius rod will move the lower BJ more forward therefore increasing the negative caster, wouldn't it? Or maybe I'm bassackwards?

I like the results you state for max caster setting, but when you say you prefer the max caster setting equal on both sides, do you care if it is positive or negative? I'm assuming you mean that setting will be the maximum positive setting within the spec allowed by adjustment where both sides will be equal? Ideally that would mean +1 degree on both sides?

Sorry to be so anal about this, but I want to make sure I understand it before I go back to the shop. Next time I'll make damn sure their printer is working and they give me a reading for all 4 wheels. I know the guy hung heads on the rear wheels, but I really didn't see him do anything with it... Thanks!

[AZmike]

Knowing how the location of the kingpin axis compares to the contact patch is what is would take to make a reasonable estimation of how caster differences would affect steering pull.

Positive caster means that kingpin axis (axis through upper and lower balljoints) leans backwards. I think you have the sign reversed here.

I meant maximum positive caster. Negative caster is generally not good. My sedan would go up to about 2 degrees positive caster; my hatchback is closer to 1 degree.

The left side of the car tends to sit somewhat lower than the right (about 1/4") iirc so unless your difference is larger than that changing out the shocks is not likely to affect your camber setting. Increasing the caster may pull the lower ball joints inward enough to get your camber to a number you're more comfortable with. Depending on how aggressively you drive and how much highway driving your car sees 1 degree negative might be the right camber setting anyway.

[Poodlehead]

I found a DIY place about alignment and it looks like they had the numbers bassackwards. I found a spot in one of the Chiltens I have which confirms what you say about king pin axis leaning towards the rear of the car means more positive caster. Thanks for the education.

My left side is not 1/4" lover than the right so the strutts are probably fine. I'm not an aggressive driver so hopefully moving the caster positive on the left side will pull the camber in enough like you suggested.

It looks like the car pulls more to the left under acceleration now so I need to jack it up and make sure everything is tight. I'm pretty sure it is, but I do remember one rubber piece around the rack that didn't seem to sit right. Stupid me being in a hurry just cranked down on the mounting bolts. I need to check that and make sure the motor mount attached to the subframe and subframe mounting bolts are tight, then go back for an alignment.

I learned a lot about the alignment theory from you. Thanks a bunch!

[Poodlehead]

Well everything is nice and tight under there. I even went one step further and moved the subframe at the PS rack over to the right so my left side negative camber should be better. Hopefully it's not too far where it's throwing out the right side. If I remember correctly, the left was -1 and right was close to +1 so that should balance fairly close.

I replaced all motor mounts about a year ago and checking them in gear under a little acceleration, the motor really doesn't move much so I think the mounts are OK, but I still get more pull to the left under acceleration and was wondering if that could be caused by a bad alignment between the front and rear? Does that make sense?

I'm headed to another shop within the same chain (Firestone) on Saturday morning to get the alignment checked/redone. Man it amazes me how little some shops know. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to adjust the caster, but apparantly it does. He told me to bring it at a certain time so his best mech can do the alignment... Oh well... Thanks!