ITB's

[Accordtheory]

20x24 resolution in hondata is only with the 5bar sensor..it's only 20x16 with the 3bar..that's retarded..crome beats that, and it 'shouldn't' even be in the same ballpark as hondata..
I'd want to be able to configure the amount of load points vs boost, not just have a weird fixed arbitrary way of tuning it..with crome you can do that
..still waiting on the neptune rtp

[b8er]

well im not calling you out saying your not qualifed i was just asuming that by what you have wrote that you know your stuff so i figured that you might be able to do just a quick little somthing like
MS I-------------------MS II
has this----------------doesnt
has this----------------has this
doesnt-----------------has this

if you get my childish ideas, ahah



also how does our stock computer work, like does it use a MAF and control the timming or what, i asume thats not that way seeing as our dizzys are vacum advance but anyone get my drift?

[PhydeauX]

The stock computer is fuel only I beleive. I'm pretty sure there is a map sensor in that black box somewhere, I know there isn't a maf. I'm not 100% sure on the specifics since I'm a carb guy when it comes to the accords. Both the efi and carb distributors have a vacuum and mechanical advance. The efi computer might have some influence on the vacuum advance via a solenoid but I'm not sure on that. Most of the advance is handled by the mechanical any way (by the way you have to lock the mechanical advance if you go to an efi system that does spark).
As for you chart, just read the features lists on those two links, I don't see a reason to copy and paste them side by side here.
As for the reasons I chose msII over ms1 were:
- accuracy, I'm running 365cc injectors on a 1.6l engine. While thats nothing radical the gm ecm seemed to have a terrible time with it, I just couldn't get a stable idle (rich or lean but never right). I'm sure the ms1 could have handled it, but after the bad expierence I wanted to be sure. The msII has no problems and shouldn't even with injectors 2x that size. Those injectors are too small anyways so I'll have plenty of room to grow.
- stepper motor idle control, I already had one fitted and I wanted to use it.
- I was betting on the future. Most say that msns-e has pretty much taken the ms1 cpu almost to its limit. It's likely that its developers will start bring its features over to the msII and expanding from there. Or atleast thats what I'm hoping, from reading the forums it seems it will atleast partially happen in the not too distant future. Knock retard and wheel decoding are in beta, people are talking about more ignition outputs and the only other thing I really want right now is boost control.
andy

[jigga89SEi]

With your ITB set-up are u running a single tps or individuals tps sensors?... I'm designing an ITB setup myself.. And contrary to earlier statements there is power to be made with proper tuning... I'm going to use GSXR TBs... I'm basing the the build off of the Honda Tuning D-series ITB article... But, They only used 1 tps... I don't have the magazine with me at the moment so I can't say what issue... I beleive they used Hondata for tuning( I could be wrong)... I'm goin complete stand alone... I'm considering SDS, But I'm not having luck finding a tuner locally for that system... My understanding is that SDS would be easier to wire individual tps sensors, however I have not fully researched this... If I don't go with SDS I'm considering the AEM system... After some research I've discoverd that multiple tps sensors is extremely benificial when it comes to tuning and over-all driveability...
My other issue is actually making 4 tps sensors work with the GSXR TBs... I don't have the TBs yet, so I haven't actually evaluated the problem.. But if anyone has input on that.. It would be greatly appreciated...

[A20A1]

Wouldn't you only need one TPS... the throttles are synched so the signal will never vary even if you add 20 TPS's... you just need your program to use one signal for all 4 cylinders.

I mean how could having multiple TPS signals actually help if they are always the same. It probably has someting to do with the program you're running and not that you have 1 TPS. I only see multiple TPS as a way to not have to set up your program to use the same signal for each cylinder.... that way each cylinder is more independent. Kinda like the benifit of running coil on plug, but then not quite.

Another posibility is that the throttles are not perfectly synched... which means you have messed up ITB's, but in that instance I can see 4 Individial TPS sensors helping.

[jigga89SEi]

Well that is exaclty the thought I had... But is also what lead to an aurgument with a tuner friend of mine... I thought that if all the butterflies are on the same axis why would it makes a difference?.. .but he says problems have occurred before because of the single tps... He even went as far to say that the same d-series build I spoke of earlier ran into the same issue when it came to tuning... The only benifit I see is the ability to tune each cylinder individually.. which WOULD be a good thing

[A20A1]

Well they would all have the own circuit/signal, which can be benificial in it's own way but if the program you use is set up for one TPS I don't see it making it that much harder to tune the cylinders individual.

If TPS signal = x
Have cylinder 1 - 4 read the value of x individually, not simultaneously.
Then I don't see you needing x, y, z, v. (I'm probably way off into outer space with that bit though)

It's like running 4 ecu's so you have one per cylinder... I mean you can do it and it proably has it's benifits. But some things you can simplify if you know that they are going to be consistant; like the TPS.

I think any problems lie in how the signal is used... but thats something I really can't elaborate on.

Anyways if you can run it, then go for it, I just think things should be consolodated where possible.

[jigga89SEi]

I agree an thats why I put the question out there... I'm still in the information gathering stage... I'm trying to figure out the most benificial way to go about this... So anyone else with input on the before mentioned questions please let me know...

[b8er]

these last few posts between jigga and a20 are great, i never thought of running 4 tps ubt as soon as you asked i thought hey that might be a great idea and then you guys further discussed exatcly what i was thinking, it was kinda weird actually, aha,

i believe the itb's im getting are a single tps, i asume its only 1 as i asume there are all factory and i asume that the factory setup only came with one, ahah im not really sure to be blunt and honest

... I'm still in the information gathering stage... I'm trying to figure out the most benificial way to go about this...

amen on that , im just trying to find as much info on adapting itbs to an a20, whats the price on the SDS and AEM systems your looking at?

[A20A1]

Yup gathering info helps out a lot... I think I was just lacking in skills or I'm lazy with my hands on projects cause my header didn't quite come out the way I wanted.

[Accordtheory]

There is no need for multiple tps sensors. The shafts are all connected together! And if you have the ability to tune each cylinder differently, you don't need different sensors for each cylinder, because you tune each cylinder differently based on the same input.

[Accordtheory]

contrary to earlier statements there is power to be made with proper tuning...

What I've read is that ITBs get beaten slightly by the endyn cf manifold with an oversize TB..it's been a while since I've read up on a many of the top guys setups on h-t, and ITBs are always popular, but that's what I was seeing. I remember reading about a guy who had 250whp on a vtec 1.8, with ITBs carefully setup on a heavily modded head, etc. But there are people who are heavily involved in this shit who will say they have seen just as much with a good single throttle body intake. Did you read the buildup of endyn's 300hp b20 vtec? They heavily modified a skunk2 manifold, and used it with a 64mm TB.

If you believe ITBs make more power, what would be your explanation for that?

The way I see it, when the butterflys are open, it's just a runner..you still have the same things in play, runner length, taper, plenum size, etc, what difference does it make where you put the flow restriction (throttle) when you eliminate it (by opening it all the way)?

[rjudgey]

depends on the rpms your trying to pull, i think you'll find that if your running full on race engine ITB's are a must as the higher the rpms the more of a restriction a single TB becomes, but for most road cars single inlet plenum aftermarket is going to be pretty good, the question was is ITB's going to be better than stock which i'm pretty sure is a 100% yes. Personally i think ITB's are better and also two Webers which is similar principle one TB per bore i think the limiting factor comes down to how long you can make the runners and also the engle to which they attach to the head, it's not just whether their ITB's or single TB theirs lots of other considerations to make, the guy with the single TB setup may have mods that suit this setup and also has no desire to turn into full on race car and wants to retain low end torque for everyday driveablility, the guy with the ITB's may wanted them because they look cool and sound cool, but wanted to keep the engine relatively tame so that he could still drive it on the roads.
ITB's with big air boxes on turn into a sort of single inlet plenum style setup as well but this is mainly done to try and keep the noise levels down as with a lot of tracks in the U.K their are quite strict noise limits, these don't seem to hinder performance especailly if they are fitted to a duct that rams air straight in they actually gain in some cases.
But from all the engine setups that are in the U.K. and their have been many 4 pots that have been tuned for road and race use over the last 20 years from Ford to Volkswagen the best engines have all had ITB's on them or Twin Weber DCOE's none have had single TB unless they're running Turbo. but i've even seen ITB's with turbo setup as well with a sealed airbox on them. If you look at any of the best fast road sportscars e.g. Lotus Exige, M3, they have ITB's as stock must be a reason for people to use them if it's racing or fast road use, i think a lot of people have developed the sinlge TB plenum chamber so that it is a very good alternative that is a lot cheaper as ITB's have allways been very expensive to fit and tune but ultimately the most performance allways cost more if you want an engine that puts down 300whp your going to need ITB's but if your happy with 285whp and the cheaper single TB plenum can do that then thats what will be bought but for anyone what that little extra it's going to cost a lot more when you get that serious the first 30 bhp is allways easy and cheap after that it starts getting more and more expensive with results becoming smaller and smaller.

[jigga89SEi]

That is what I was going to say... In way more words... LOL... Thnx Rjudgey...

Over stock there is no doubt a performance gain...

N lets think about it... An endyn carbon fiber intake mani and oversized TB... I'm not footin the bill for that one... If you wanna send me the money I'll make it work...
But I'd rather go ITB's.. Cause it's different, It's a challenge.. and they sound hella cool...

Plus as mentioned before, throttle response is way better... Which is only a plus for any race situation...

[b8er]

thanks for that sweet post rjudey, just makes me wanna do this project even more. im kinda jumping back a few posts now but anybody using chrome or uberdata or somthing along those lines that might be able to tell me/us if it is suitable for running itb's?

[AccordEpicenter]

I think you guys are gonna need a considerable amount of headwork to make over 200hp even with ITBs. It sure would be a sight though, itbs on an a20.

[jigga89SEi]

I know you know your shit, Rjudgey ... So do you have any input on the multiple verse single tps idea?

[b8er]

It sure would be a sight though, itbs on an a20.

it will happen, just you see

[rjudgey]

cke is right carb guy but i've been researching into EFI, i don't think multiple TPS will make any difference as it'a only an inline 4 pot and with all 4 butterfly's they should all be fixed in the same position, now what is important is that all four cylinders are flowing the same that ould be my priority rather than 4 tps, but say if you had a V6/8/10/12/16 then yes i can see having 2 TPS as being benefitial or if you have a system that shuts down cylinders to save on fuel e.g. V8 or V12 that runs on just half the cylinders etc.
Off course your going to need headwork, but nother hugely major the design of the ports are pretty good as standard you just need bigger valves all round and to reshape the exhuast port and valve guide ramp for better flow, then having a header custom made and exhaust system to match. I'm hitting 200Bhp with stock modified cast manifold, custom downpipe and system but i know this needs changing as it's creating a bottle neck and if i want to hit 250bhp it's gotta to go.

[b8er]

so do you think your wil feel a difference in power without modding the vlaves?

[Versanick]

There will absolutely be a power difference. It will provide syngergistic increases with things like a well-chosen cam, header, head work, valve work, and very high RPM (bottom end work needed)...

200hp would not be that difficult if you revved the motor to 8000rpm+, assuming you could fit things like a GSR oil pump gear, a larger alternator wheel, maybe a later water pump wheel (like the GSR one?), all to avoid high RPM damage. Remeber, after 7600rpm, horsepower is torque x 1.5. So if you can make 130+ ft/lb (which isn't terribly unforseeable with some work) after 7500rpm, you could see 200hp, no problem. To the flywheel, at least.

ITB's would be a big step in that direction. I'd say that if you have any real work done on your motor, ITB's would be a huge improvement over the VERY poor stock IM that comes on the a20's/b20a's. The air takes a 90 degree bend after the plenum, for god's sake. The disadvantage with a single cam is not having a great cam. I said a well-chosen cam, for a reason. With DOHC, you can properly tune overlap (the difference between the advance/retard of the intake/exhaust cam, regarding when both intake and exhaust valves are opened at the same time) to take advantage of the much differently flowing air from the ITB's than the stock IM.

So I don't think it would make more than 10-15hp on a stock motor. If you have carbs, and you ran four carbs with an ITB-sort of setup, you could make a HANDFUL more power, if set up and tuned correctly.

[Accordtheory]

Remeber, after 7600rpm, horsepower is torque x 1.5. .

hp=torque x rpm/5252

[w00tw00t111]

[quote]So I don't think it would make more than 10-15hp on a stock motor. If you have carbs, and you ran four carbs with an ITB-sort of setup, you could make a HANDFUL more power, if set up and tuned correctly.[/qoute]
OMG you made my day!! That's what I'm doing and I was worried that it wouldn't be very good.

I know from all the articles I've read they've all agreed to the fact that ITB's really aren't all that great of a performance mod when compared to a turbo,sc, or nitrous but, then again when ever you compare any of those power adders to good ol' NA they're never on the same playing field *with a few exceptions not takin' into account* I remember reading an article in honda tuning *i think* of an s2000 that only had ITB's, they gained 20 peak hp and the owner even mentioned the horsepower jump wasn't all that great but....the throttle response increase was amazing. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

[b8er]

couple questions mainly for rjudey but anyone else that knows the awnser will work too, aha

33mm inlet valves, 37mm exhaust valves, all with race backcuts profiles, 5 angle or radiused seats, reshaped exhaust ports and guide boss

is there anywhere i can sorce these bigger valves, also when upgrading to the bigger diam. valves i asume the stem also grows in size so is that what you were talking about when you said somthing about the guide boss?
also...

valvetrain can handle 8k rpms with minor mods

what kinda mods are we talking here?

[b8er]

just took some measurments from my spare head and..

Intake
1.179 inches = 29.947 MM

Exhaust
1.384 inches = 35.154 MM

is there enough room to bump the sizes up to 33MM intake and 37MM exhaust i just looked and it looks close