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Thread: Project 2G/A20!

  1. #1
    2ndGenGuy
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    Project 2G/A20!

    Project 2G/A20 is my new project that I've been dying to do for years. Ever since I first found this forum a few years ago I've always wanted to do the Weber-powered A20 engine swap into my car. Finally the project has begun. I will be using this thread to update my progress as things go. Should be fun.

    I got a loaner engine lift from the local AutoZone. You basically pay the full price of the unit, but you can use it for up to 90 days and get your full refund once you return it. I may just wind up keeping it for other projects if I decide I enjoy doing this sort of thing.

    I was able to disconnect everything from the car, all 5 billion hoses and lines that run everywhere across the engine. Then some friends and I used the engine jack with some chain to pull it out of the car. We couldn't get the spindle nut off the axles, and since this car is going to the wrecking yard anyways, decided to just pull the axles out of the transmission end and leave them with the car.

    Heres a couple pics of the beginning of the progress.

    Here's my A20A1 that's going to the shop for it's performance rebuild. I'm sending it off to the shop because I've never rebuilt and engine, and would prefer this engine done right, as I plan on driving it for at least a year.




    Tomorrow, I'm going to scour the forums and find out the best parts and upgrades that I can have done to the engine. The basic plans for now are as follows:

    Bore out the cylinders for more displacement.
    Higher compression pistons.
    Stronger rods.
    Mill the head for even higher compression.
    Port and polish the head.
    3-angle valve job.
    Stronger valve springs.
    Prelude cam, or more other slightly more agressive cam. (Still want to daily drive)

    Rebuilt ES2 transmission.
    Stage 1 performance clutch.

    Since the car is going to be a daily driver, I plan on keeping the A/C and power steering systems. I don't think that they rob enough power (especially when off) to make that big of a difference for me.

    Will keep this thread updated with my progress.



  2. #2

    Bglad420's Avatar
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    Good luck with your project! Hey are you going to have a few parts off that 3g for sale like oh I don't know mabey the driver fender?? I'm up in Bellingham and I'd be willing to make the trip if its in good condition, and the price is right.
    I can't read the signature rules so MrBen deleted my signature.

  3. #3
    2ndGenGuy
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    Holy multiple posts batman.

    Yes actually. I've had it posted for sale for a week or two now. You're welcome to come get parts off of it. I could use all the money I can get to perform this rebuild. I won't be stingey though. Make me an offer. I'd rather see the parts go to someone who could use them instead of going to the crusher.

  4. #4

    PhydeauX's Avatar
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    So much of the mulitple post eh One swinging squirrel sack is enough for anybody.

    Anyway good luck with this. I hope you figure out a way to keep the ac. I have a feeling that its possible, but you're in uncharted waters with that one.

    If you're going to do pistons etc, don't waste your time with a prelude cam, get a colt regrind. I run a 272 and the car is still streetable. The a20 is a torqey engine, its hard to kill off the low end power. For what I run now the 272 is actually too small. Talk to (I believe its Gary) colt and tell him what you want to do. You'll want to do this while you're rebuilding your engine as you'll need to send him your cam. The motor shop is going to want the cam when they do the engine too so the sooner you send it the better.

    andy


  5. #5

    Bglad420's Avatar
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    Yeah I don't know what the heck happened there, but they're gone....
    I can't read the signature rules so MrBen deleted my signature.

  6. #6

    carotman's Avatar
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    Nice Work!

    You might want to keep the Axle innet joint. They might come in handy in the future. It might be possible to make custom axles with a 2G axle and a 3g inner joint.

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  7. #7
    2ndGenGuy
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    Good call on keeping those. You may be right about that. I'm trying to keep everything that might be useful in the swap. Theres a lot of ports on the intake manifold, with hard pipes that were coming off of the exhaust. I assume I'm not going to need those anymore.

    And I'm planning on griding off all of the flanges on the intake manifold that were for mounting stupid emissions crap. Make the manifold look all nice and clean. I assume that I don't need the EGR valves or anything like that. The only thing that I'm planning on bolting onto the intake manifold is the carb and the coolant lines.

  8. #8
    2.0Si User speedpenguin's Avatar
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    That looks like a fun project. Not to mention a relatively cheap one!

    Of course I'm lazy. If I wanted to work on my car I'd have gotten a DSM
    Daily Drivers Done Right

  9. #9
    2ndGenGuy
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    So, I take it that with the A/C I'm going to have to a hard time mounting the ES2's A/C onto the A20 engine. Or is the only problem the pulleys? If the pulleys are the issue, I'll keep the ES2 pulley, Alternator, Power steering pump and A/C compressor. If I have to modify the A/C bracket, I don't think that would be a terribly big deal. I think I read your other post regarding the pulleys...

  10. #10
    2ndGenGuy
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    So, I've decided that after reading some FAQ's and browsing with what everybody is happy with I'm going to go with a Colt cam reground to ~270.

    That sounds good from what you say and based on the descriptions from Paeco. Of course, I'll talk to the guys at Colt before I send it in to get a better idea since they are the experts. I like the idea of a good cam for slaloms because theres plenty of those at the autocross track. I still want to keep some bottom end because of all the speed variations at the track.

    I think for the next stage of the project, I'm going to go ahead and put my Weber on my ES2 for now, just to see how it works and how everything hooks up. It doesn't look too hard. Then I will have a better idea how it will install on the A20. Plus, it's a waste having that carb just sitting on a shelf in my garage... I'll post pics as I install. Plan on getting some pics up tonight.

  11. #11
    2ndGenGuy
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    Well, I went ahead and started taking the carb off of my car. This was my daily driver, but now I guess I'll be driving my Bronco II to work tomorrow. My buddy who I work with is going to pick me up in his Corvette (aww man!) for a while since I don't think the Bronco will hold up to a whole lot of daily driving.


    Here's all the vacuum junk I removed.



    This is about all I could get done tonight. My allergies are killing me today, no more energy to work.



    And I was thinking, wouldn't this make a nice little place for an intake to run? The only possible problems being it might collect water in the harsh (rainy) Washington winters, but should be great for this summer. Also I suppose it might make the car a bit noisy in the cabin, with this being the air duct for the heating / cooling system.



    This project is starting to scare me a little bit though. There are a couple components in the vacuum system that look essential to run certain things. Like the ilde boost valve for the A/C. Also, if I don't remove the AS valve, where do I run the vacuum lines on the end of that black box attached to it? Those went into the old airbox before I believe.

    Also, there are two hoses that go down to what look like a temperature sensor right on the thermostat housing. Can I just leave those vacuum lines off, and leave that sensor guy just hanging out in there?

    From what I understand though, vacuum is just vacuum, and if I need it to power something (like cruise control), I can most likely just T off another line?

    Going to learn alot from this... Hopefully I'm not in too far over my head.
    Last edited by 2ndGenGuy; 06-20-2006 at 09:07 PM.

  12. #12

    PhydeauX's Avatar
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    You need to plug that hole up, else you're going to be pumping engine fumes into your cabin. Get a piece of sheet metal, paint it to match, seal it with silicon and bolt it on there. I made a little shelf in that spot and used it to mount my msd box.

    The a/c idle up is a bit of a problem. I believe there are solenoids you can buy for the weber dgv carbs to push the idle up. Its an electric solenoid so it would need to be wired in to where the vacuum solenoid was in the black box. I'm not sure if you'll need it or not. Idle up is also activated when you hit the brake lights, head lights, or rear defrost. I didn't run it and never had a problem. I could hear the idle drop a little bit when I put a heave electrical load on it, but it was never enough to cause problems.

    With the pullies the problem is going to be the water pump. The ES2 water pump pully won't bolt to the a20 water pump. The a20 uses a 5 rib belt and the ES2 uses a 4 so you need the ES2 water pump pully with the es2 crank pully. You should have no trouble bolting the ac to the block, externaly the es2 and a20 blocks are virtually identical, they have all the same hole in all the same places. I never looked into this but as I said the solution may be as simple as using an ES2 water pump on the a20 block.

    IIRC the 2 vacuum lines that go down to that little temp sensor thing are to boost the timing when the engine is cold. One should go to a vacuum soruce and the other to one of the ports on the distributor. You don't need that for anything, just leave it off and you only have to hook up one of the 2 vacuum advance ports on the distributor to the carb. If you really want to keep it then just hook one of the lines to a vacuum soruce some where and the other to the second port.

    When you're done you'll only have 4 vacuum lines to worry about, the advance, the brake booster, the hvac (this is the line that runs to the firewall on the drives side, you need this unless you only want defrost to work), and the cruise since you seem to want to keep that. The vacuum advance goes to the port on the carb. The brake booster goes to the same place, and the other two can be hooked up to any port on the intake or where ever, you're right, it doesn't matter.

    I'm not sure what you mean by the AS valve, but you should probalby unhook it. All vacuum comes from the manifold, so if it isn't hooked up to the manifold then you don't have to worry about it.

    The vacuum system with the weber isn't intimidating at all. The birds nest of emissions controls are gone and you end up with a nice simple system. The car doesn't actually need any of the vacuum system to run. You have problems with the vacuum system on the stock carb because it is actually tuned to run rich at idle and part throttle and then the "emissions computer" creats a controled vacuum leak to lean the mixture out based on what it reads from its maps and the o2 sensor. When that system starts to break down it can be a night mare. The weber doesn't use any of that hippie sh1t, its pure old shcool.

    Oh by the way, incase you didn't know that pimpin valve cover of yours will bolt right on to the a20 when you install it.

    andy
    Last edited by PhydeauX; 06-21-2006 at 07:01 PM.


  13. #13
    2ndGenGuy
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    Man! You are a genius, Andy! I don't know what I would do without you. Your advice makes me feel much better about this.

    w00t about the valve cover. I spent about 2 hours sandblasting it. (Rice!)

    By the AS (air suction, I think) valve, I mean that big-ass metal pipe that comes up from the exhaust manifold. It goes to this valve lookin thing that almost looks just like the EGR vavle, but its right behind the valve cover. That connects into another black box that sits right behind the valve cover as well. That had 2 small hoses and one large hose that went into the air cleaner box.

    Here is a picture of the 3 hoses that went into there at one point.


    Ideally, I think that you want to remove that whole thing. Trouble is that I don't have any way to cap it at the exhaust manifold. So I think i'll just cap everything else off up top for now. I'll take that part that screws into the manifold and have it welded shut at the top...

    Also, the big PCV hose that comes up from the crank case and into that breather box; Can I just connect that hose up to the inake manifold? Thats where it winds up going anyways, I figure. Or would it be better to run it into the airbox cos it might mess up the vacuum? There IS a hole on the bottom of the air cleaner box, so I figure that would be okay.



    These guys I assume I can cap off as well. They're on the bottom of the manifold. They just looked like some kind of vacuum regulators.



    The manifold adapter plate from Pierce Manifolds was rubbing against the PCV inlet on the manifold from the valve cover. I went ahead and shaved a little off with my dremel so it fits nicely now. Kinda ghetto job, but I'm a noob.




    Also, when I put the carb on, I used those little cardboard gaskets. I mean I'm assuming that they're gaskets for that spacer. Thats what they are, right? Not just protective cardboard for the rubber spacer...


    Gonna pick up a Weber carb book tomorrow, as instructed in the Weber Carb how to on the site. Speaking of the how-to, it says not to remove the "Thermovalves." I looked in the manual, and I'm not really sure exactly what that means. It referred to the PCV system again, so I assume that means don't remove the PCV system?

    Sorry for all the questions, especially if they are stupid ones...

    Thanks again, Andy, for all of your help with this! It's much appreciated. If there is anything I can do to help you out sometime, PM me. Although, I doubt that theres anything I can do.
    Last edited by 2ndGenGuy; 06-21-2006 at 10:47 PM.

  14. #14
    2ndGenGuy
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    Oh man I just was browsing the manual, and found that I don't want to connect that PCV box to the vacuum on the intake manifold. Looks like that box will suck air IN to the crankcase down below. I think I will hit up The 'Zone tomorrow and pick up one of those generic little filters that fits on the end of a hose and I'll secure it to the firewall somehow.

    I also see what those yellow things are. Those are the thermovalves. It says in the Weber How-To NOT to disconnect those... I'm just curious as to why not? They look like yet another unimportant part of the emissions system.

    Come to think of it also, my idle up hasn't worked since I bought the car. So $%*# it! :p
    Last edited by 2ndGenGuy; 06-21-2006 at 10:50 PM.

  15. #15

    carotman's Avatar
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    Just get one of your spare Air Suction tubes, then cut it and bend it like that:



    It didn't leak on my car. It would look better with all the Air Suction system removed.

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  16. #16
    2ndGenGuy
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    Agreed! I do think it would look much better without it. Great idea on bending it like that! I think that's what I'll go ahead and do. Now I just gotta figure out how to get it out of there with all the A/C and power steering lines in the way. Looks like a pain to get a wrench down in where that connects to the exhaust manifold. Thanks for the tip!
    Last edited by 2ndGenGuy; 06-22-2006 at 06:55 AM.

  17. #17

    PhydeauX's Avatar
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    There should be a plastic elbow that attaches to the bottom of the weber's air cleaner, you can hook the pcv up to that, or use a seperate filter, it doesn't matter.

    After seeing it I remember what the AS valve is. It allows air to be sucked into the exhaust stream. This has some benefit for the cat, I don't rember exactly what. I used the same solution as carrot on mine, I also did that to the egr. I welded the fold after I bent it to ensure that it didn't leak.

    You can leave those two yellow vacuum switches be. They don't have any vaccum coming from them so there is no reason to cap them off. They allow vacuum to flow through them at certain temprature ranges, they were doing something emissions releated. Definitely don't remove them. There is coolant flowing under the manifold and both of those switches are threaded into the coolant cavity. If you take them out you're going to have a big mess and a major coolant leak.

    I don't know quite how the gaskets go together on your kit. I never installed a weber on an ES. There should be a gasket between every metal to metal connection, I don't know about the rubber spacer since I didn't have one. Those are definitely the gaskets though. They feel like really crappy cardboard.

    Two other thigns I don't know if they mentioned in the weber faq.

    1. Use loctite on all of the adapter bolts. Espically those beveled ones, they like to work loose.

    2. The weber only goes on one way, and its the way that makes the throttle cable a pain in the ass to install. The smaller barel needs to be twards the firewall, even though it seems to be easier to hook up the other way. It's backwards in that top pic I believe.

    andy
    Last edited by PhydeauX; 06-22-2006 at 09:45 AM.


  18. #18
    2ndGenGuy
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    Check on the locktite. I will have to pull those bolts off then and redo them. The way its installed in the pic is with the small barrel towards the back. The bigger port on the intake manifold is towards the front of the car, as is the port on the carb and adapter plate. The throttle cable does look like its going to be a pain in the ass to install as its now on the opposite side of the car, as is the fuel line, but it shoudln't be that big of a deal. It came with all the adapters and whatnot.

    And yes, you're right about that elbow deal that it came with. I reailzed that when I woke up this morning. (Been thinking about this setup all night, coiuldn't sleep). I think I might go with those little filters from The 'Zone anyways because they kinda look neat (rice!) and people will ask about them.

  19. #19

    Cheeseburger's Avatar
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    cooL!!!

  20. #20
    2ndGenGuy
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    Okay, I can't find a stupid Weber Manual anywhere in town. I've been to every auto parts store and every book store. So now for the dumb questions. Where do I hook the fuel line? I only see two places. There's the big hose connector on top of the carb that's angled down, and then theres a little hose connector on the back of the carb. What do I do with those... I can't find any diagrams online anywhere, and it didn't come with directions. I figured I could just pick up a manual and be done... but I guess not. Yet another day without the Accord... *sigh*

  21. #21
    2ndGenGuy
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    Okay, so I figured out that the big one on top is the Fuel input line. But whats the small one on the back?

  22. #22

    PhydeauX's Avatar
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    vacuum advance

    Hmmm.. thats odd about the carb, is it a dgv or a dgf?

    andy


  23. #23
    3Geez Veteran gfrg88's Avatar
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndGenGuy
    Okay, so I figured out that the big one on top is the Fuel input line. But whats the small one on the back?

    fuel return line????
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  24. #24
    2ndGenGuy
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    It's a DGEV according to Pierce Manifolds... But whatever it is, that bitch is now running! Still have a list of things to do:

    1. I still have to get the throttle linkage correct. If I straighten out the linkage plate like in the Weber How-To, it will hit on one of the linkage rods for the carb.

    2. Need to remove the EGR vavle, and the rest of the AS valve system. I'm going to have the screws for the pipes off of the exhaust manifold welded into caps down at my dad's shop. Then I'll use them to plug the exhaust manifold. And I'm going to remove the EGR valve as well and cut a plate to fit over the holes on the manifold. Then I'll seal it off with some RTV gasket maker. So no more stupid valves.

    3. Making a plate to mount the (riced) PCV breather filter next to the firewall. For this, I've measured a 1" x 3" piece of aluminum and I'm going to cut it out and bend it and drill holes to mount the hose in and bolt it to a factory hole on the firewall.

    4. Make a plate for the big hole where the hell-box used to be. I've got a sheet of aluminum that I'm going to cut and then silicone seal it to the firewall there. Then I'll drill holes at the factory drill points and bolt it down, as suggested.

    5. Connect the HVAC system. There are two vacuum lines going into the firewall. One is a hard pipe that WAS from the canister, and the other is just a vacuum hose hanging out of the firewall. I get the feeling that the one host just hanging out of the firewall is for the HVAC system. But I'm going to double-check it in the Honda factory manual.

    Here are some pics. I took after I started it. Notice the vice grips clamping down the rubber tube coming off of that crazy air suction valve canister. That was just for starting it and see if it runs. Indeed it started right up. I was amazed I could accomplish such a feat.




    I'm hoping to have all of the fabrication done tomorrow, and Saturday I can tune it ALL DAY! I'm not sure if the carb is already jetted for a 4-cylinder or not. I would assume so, since it came in a kit. But after it's running smooth, I might just order a jet kit and play with jetting too!

  25. #25
    2ndGenGuy
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    Re: Project 2G/A20!

    Aah, I keep learning new things! From what I understand, the DGEV and DGAV are both DGV carbs. One is just Electric choke and the other is a water choke or something like that.

    A diagram I found on RedLine Weber's website shows what you guys said ealier abou the vacuum advance. The other one is an EGR port, I guess I hook that to my EGR valve's vacuum port (obviously).

    Oh, another thing I didn't note, is that I need to hook up the electric choke. Although my car started up on the first try, so I'm not sure I really need to. Maybe it would be good for cold days anyways. I think I'll figure that part out too and hook it up the right way.

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