Running Rich? Surges under power..

[TechnoGecko]

Alrighty. First, let me thank all of you that contributed advice towards the A/C compressor removal instructions. I was able to remove the A/C compressor from the car without discharging the system and replace the clutch. It was a real bear though, and took over 7 hours. Not to mention I had to cut the bolt off the clutch on the A/C in the car - but alas, it worked!

So here is another question...

About two months ago I brought the car in to the Honda dealership to have its absurd idle issue looked at. It would rev upwards of 4,000 or more at times sitting at a stop light. On top of that, it would occasionally go 1,000 -> 4,000 -> 1,000 for minutes on end. The dealer looked at it and told me the carb was bad and it had to be replaced at a cost of $2100. They said they "maxxed out the adjustments and it made no difference". Obviously I said no thanks and took the car home I ended up replacing a vac hose, cant remember which one at the moment, and for the most part it has seemed to go away.

However, it appears the Honda dealer really fubar'd the car up now. I'm noticing a significant amount of black around the tailpipe and the car began hesitating/surging on acceleration. You'll have to excuse my ignorance in describing the parts here, but hopefully this makes the problem a tad bit easier to find. If you're accelerating at a moderate rate, up to the point where it opens the second butterfly valve on the carb, it really isn't that noticeable. However, if you punch it, or open it up past that point you can feel it take off, then bog down for a second, then take off, then bog down. Once it gets past about 4,000 it's fine.

I'm assuming the Honda dealer just went playing with knobs and misadjusted the carb now. I'm worried about excessive carbon buildup and want to get this issue resolved as soon as possible. I've also noticed that the idle is a bit high, around 1050 to 1100. I turned the black adjustment screw in the back but it did not appear to make any difference in the idle speed. In fact, I'm fairly sure it nearly came out and still made no difference.

Not sure where to start or what to do here. I guess I could turn the A/F knob on the back of the carb and try and lean it out. I was reading over the shop manual and it was talking about using a propare enrichment process? There has to be another/easier way to do it. Suggestions on where to start to resolve this would be excellent. I'm guessing its mainly adjustment related and nothing defective/broken as the car ran like a dream before the dealer had their hands on it.

My dealer at home is great and the one mechanic that typically looks at my car has always done an awesome job - never had an issue. However, this was a different dealer as I was out of town and boy do I regret it now. Where should I start adjusting?

Thanks

[A20A1]

Check that your spark plug wires are tight and the plugs are secure in the spark plug holes... do not overtighten the plugs.


Sometimes the jerking could be caused by the powervalve, or some kind off vacuum leak.

Something with the BOOSTER VENTURIES Probably the primary one but it could be the secondary.

Don't just adjust the black knob at the back... idle asjustment should be performed in steps... if you pass a step you wont nottice much change and could do yourself wrong by increasing the idle too much... creating problems that kick you off the idle circuit or worse, cause the idle to raise out off contorll and get you into a car accident.

The A/F screw should be the last resort... as long as it's still in the hole leave it alone.

booster thread, how to check for a loose booster.
https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48568

Idle adjustment thread.
https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46572

[TechnoGecko]

Sorry, forgot to add that the boosters are fine - I checked them about a week ago. Both are in there as tight as can be.

[FyreDaug]

Make sure your idle diaphram is connected to a good vacuum source, if its raising idle on you it sounds like its not getting enough vacuum to keep the car idling. If you are looking at the carb from the front of the car its on the left side of the carb and its connected to the throttle linkage. Its just a diaphram with an arm going to the throttle linkage area.

[A20A1]

The PCV valve can cause sporattic vacuum leaks which then could cause the idle diaphragm to get sporattic vacuum signals and then that leads to the up and down out of control idle.

[FyreDaug]

True, I still dont understand PCV's... hehe

[TechnoGecko]

I'm going to check the vac on the car tomorrow. What should it read vac wise at idle?

[A20A1]

24"-28" maybe as low as 22" but aim high.

[p89]

My 89 accord has the exact same problem, not the idle one but the "However, it appears the Honda dealer really fubar'd the car up now. I'm noticing a significant amount of black around the tailpipe and the car began hesitating/surging on acceleration. You'll have to excuse my ignorance in describing the parts here, but hopefully this makes the problem a tad bit easier to find. If you're accelerating at a moderate rate, up to the point where it opens the second butterfly valve on the carb, it really isn't that noticeable. However, if you punch it, or open it up past that point you can feel it take off, then bog down for a second, then take off, then bog down. Once it gets past about 4,000 it's fine." one. I was just wondering if you found out what caused it? I've tested lost of ideas from this forum and from the shop manual but haven´t found the problem yet. I'ts a pity cause i like the the car so much.
// One of the few remaining 89 accord owners left in sweden, corrosion and salted roads has taken it's toll.
Best regards Pelle p89

[A20A1]

Check your ignition timing.

May also be a vacuum problem.

Then there is the possibility it is this.
more then likely the primary one if it only happens at low rpm
https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48568

[p89]

I've checked the ignition timing, it's ok. I can move the booster venturis a little bit with much effort, so I can't say they loose but then again they're not rock solid. I found that there was gasoline coming out from the bottom of the accelerator pump when pulling the throttel cable. Not much, but still if gas can come out, air maybe can go in. I've ordered a repair kit from my hondadealer. Do you think it's possible to repair it without taking the carb out of the engine? And what is this carb cleaner that so many people are using, is there a special brand like CRC or something.
25 degrees celsius in the evening in Sweden, that doesn't happen to often.
Regards P89

[A20A1]

About two months ago I brought the car in to the Honda dealership to have its absurd idle issue looked at. It would rev upwards of 4,000 or more at times sitting at a stop light. On top of that, it would occasionally go 1,000 -> 4,000 -> 1,000 for minutes on end. The dealer looked at it and told me the carb was bad and it had to be replaced at a cost of $2100. They said they "maxxed out the adjustments and it made no difference". Obviously I said no thanks and took the car home I ended up replacing a vac hose, cant remember which one at the moment, and for the most part it has seemed to go away.

Yeah that was a vacuum leak causing the idle controller to push on your throttle and that caused the idle to raise which after a point raised enough to either create some vaccum or kick off a solenoid and that helped vaccum to return enough to pull on the diaphragm and close the throttle and lower the idle speed. Since the throttle controller would want to press all the way in with no vaccum to resist it, you would have to try and turn it out to stop the high idle, but you'll find very quickly that you'll max out the adjustment and end up removing the screw to get it to stop.

I can't belive he wanted to replace the carb.


No special brand just carb cleaner. I don't know which one is better at the job then others.


The other possibility for the idle raise and other problems like acceleration and stumbling is a fuel leak, possibly the leaky accelerator pump diaphragm but it also may be the float valve. Any faulty adjsutment of the float can cause you to run rich or lean. Say the leak cause the float level to drop, then the float level would be raised to counteract this drop if the fuel level... if the leak was not discovered. Then say the leak stops... but the float level is still set to the previous leaky state. Well then you'll end up with a high float level.

Fix the leak then run back around your carb a few times and see how things are doing.

You might also want to check your top hat gasket and if you can test the powervalve to see if it is operating.

I'm kinda shooting in the dark there though.

[p89]

The accelerator pump leak is fixed now. I really didn't think it was possible with the carb still in the engine, but is was, maybe i'm a better mechanic than I thought . The hesitation still remains the same, thou. I've always suspected the power valve and I have done the test procedure described in the shop manual. But I'm not sure the test covers all. There is a clicking sound in the power valve when I apply vaccum, but it seems a bit sticky. I have to apply vaccum and pressure a couple of times before the clicking noise is heard. (I use a large syringe to make the vaccum and pressure). And there is a lot of vaccum in hose 14 at idle which becomes less when I accelerate the engine. But it doesn't disappear completely. Any thougths about this power valve? I will go on testing the fuel pressure again, the pcv-valve and frequency solenoids a and b which the is the number one thing to test if there's poor performance, according to the shop manual. If anybody have better ideas, please don't hesitate to tell me. 20 degrees and cloudy tonight. P89

[A20A1]

Definately look into your frequency valves.

I had one of the solenoids that I think were connected to it go haywire on me and it clicked no matter what. It got so annoying I took it out. I thought though that the solenoid by the battery was for automatics only though so I didn't see much harm to the system as a whole if it was removed and was setup as a manual.

[2oodoor]

Alrighty. First, let me thank all of you that contributed advice towards the A/C compressor removal instructions. I was able to remove the A/C compressor from the car without discharging the system and replace the clutch. It was a real bear though, and took over 7 hours. Not to mention I had to cut the bolt off the clutch on the A/C in the car - but alas, it worked!
So here is another question...
About two months ago I brought the car in to the Honda dealership to have its absurd idle issue looked at. It would rev upwards of 4,000 or more at times sitting at a stop light. On top of that, it would occasionally go 1,000 -> 4,000 -> 1,000 for minutes on end. The dealer looked at it and told me the carb was bad and it had to be replaced at a cost of $2100. They said they "maxxed out the adjustments and it made no difference". Obviously I said no thanks and took the car home I ended up replacing a vac hose, cant remember which one at the moment, and for the most part it has seemed to go away.
However, it appears the Honda dealer really fubar'd the car up now. I'm noticing a significant amount of black around the tailpipe and the car began hesitating/surging on acceleration. You'll have to excuse my ignorance in describing the parts here, but hopefully this makes the problem a tad bit easier to find. If you're accelerating at a moderate rate, up to the point where it opens the second butterfly valve on the carb, it really isn't that noticeable. However, if you punch it, or open it up past that point you can feel it take off, then bog down for a second, then take off, then bog down. Once it gets past about 4,000 it's fine.
I'm assuming the Honda dealer just went playing with knobs and misadjusted the carb now. I'm worried about excessive carbon buildup and want to get this issue resolved as soon as possible. I've also noticed that the idle is a bit high, around 1050 to 1100. I turned the black adjustment screw in the back but it did not appear to make any difference in the idle speed. In fact, I'm fairly sure it nearly came out and still made no difference.
Not sure where to start or what to do here. I guess I could turn the A/F knob on the back of the carb and try and lean it out. I was reading over the shop manual and it was talking about using a propare enrichment process? There has to be another/easier way to do it. Suggestions on where to start to resolve this would be excellent. I'm guessing its mainly adjustment related and nothing defective/broken as the car ran like a dream before the dealer had their hands on it.
My dealer at home is great and the one mechanic that typically looks at my car has always done an awesome job - never had an issue. However, this was a different dealer as I was out of town and boy do I regret it now. Where should I start adjusting?
Thanks

Are Techno Geeko and p89 the same person, the one paragraph appears just like the original post, yet is does not show up as a quote. ???
Dealerships....let me say that if you have a carb car be advised. A large percentage of new technicians know ZIP NADA DANG TING about carburators, nor do they want to learn them. That would even include techs who have been ASE certified in the past 10 years. You are lucky to find a Honda (any make) dealership with a tech that has carb, particularly computer controlled carb, expertise.

[A20A1]

hehe I don't even nottice things like that... not sure if they are the same person... maybe two folks with simmilar problems. People hijack threads all the time.