ET2 head on ES2 block? Smoking problem...

[MustardCat]

I just got an 84 4 door for free last week. 200k original and runs real good, in pretty good shape overall in fact. (Except for some rust.. :-( )
Only problem is randomly when I start it up it starts blowing out a ton of smoke, clears up after a few blocks. Did a compression check and all the cyls are good, did a tune up, etc.

Narrowed it down to cyl #2 (Plug gets oil fouled, the other plugs are good.) It smokes soooo much, sooo long I can't beleive it's valve seals. Currently I'm thinking it's the #2 CVCC valve...

So, back to the thread title: I have a spare ET2 head (off a carb. 2G lude. ,non CVCC) that I reconditioned a few years back but never used. Will this head bolt onto the ES2 block, and will the ES2 manifolds bolt onto the head?

[Ichiban]

You might have to run the gay twin carbs with the ET2 head. The exhaust manifold might work, however the ET2 had the "hi-po" dual outlet manifold that went to the twin downpipes, but the flanges might be the same. I've never actually seen a Cvcc engine up here in Canada, so I don't know how different they actually are. We got stuck with non-Cvcc EL 1602's and A16's until 86. Oddly enough there's a car in the wreckers here that's a bone stock 84 or 85 accord sedan with an auto and an A20A1 in it. Seriously. Nothing special, just factory looking stock A20. I thought it was weird.

Anyway, more towards your question, I'd pull the busted head and see what works. It might not even be the problem, who knows? And once the head's off, you'll know for sure what parts you can use and what you need to get. I have a complete running ET2 with carbs in my parents yard. If you want it come get it, it's yours. While you're at it take the 22R-E with the big hole in the side of the block.

[PhydeauX]

Working from memory here, so I could be wrong, but here goes. The head should bolt on to the block no problems, cross ref the head gaskets to be sure. The exhaust should bolt on as well, ET, ES, BT, BS, A20, A18, they all use the same exhaust flange. IIRC the ET didn't have cvcc, been a long time since I looked at one of those heads though. The manifold flange is comletely diferent. With out having to accomodate the cvcc system the head has a much better port design. You're going to have to either get the prelude twin carb setup or something aftermarket, but either way you'll gain some power over what was in there.

andy

[MustardCat]

You guys are right. Everything is the same except the head casting and intake manifold.

I just redid the es2 head. Cleaned, surfaced, valves reground, new valve seals, new hardware on the CVCC valves, etc. like new.

Only one problem. STILL SMOKES LIKE CRAZY AT START UP! argh....

Heres what happens:
1. Drive the car around, no smoke, runs and drives awesome.
2. Park car overnight.
3. At some point while it's off oil is leaking into cylinders #2 and #3. (More in #2)
4. Start car in morning, starts to smoke like nothing else(Serious, it's like setting off a smoke bomb), soon after plugs #2 and #3 get oil fouled and it starts to miss.
5. After a few minutes of driving smoke goes away. (Have to clean plugs to fix miss.)

Somehow oil is geting into those cylinders and it accumulates while the car is off. The ONLY things I can think of currently are:

1. That oil is somehow getting around the o-rings and compression washers of the CVCC valves and getting into those cyl's.

2. Oil is leaking out of the heads oil feed (Between cyl 2 & 3), getting past the head gasket and into the cylinders.


ANY ideas on this guys? I like the car alot, I just need to fix this one problem....

[Ichiban]

something stupid like PVC breather hose dumping oil in while it sits?

[twizted_ninja]

hey yall i got a 85 accord with the es2 motor nad im tryin to do the pelude head swap also but mine is carbed and all the head gasket #'s say it wont work but thats from autozone. if yall can help me that would be kool
thanks

[rustedout]

my '85 LX smokes like a mother, actually.. like a mother who smokes a lot.. like a little 1.8-liter chimney.. and sometimes it stops smoking, just to piss me off with inconsistency. Did you figure out what the problem was, or is it still there?

[Vector]

correct me if i'm wrong, but that sounds like valve stem seals. oil can leak through those if the car sits. even more so if your guides are worn.






edit: shit. this threads kinda old.

[MustardCat]

This car is sitting at my parents house, never did figure it out.

I rebuilt the head, new seals for the valves and CVCC valves too. New head gasket of course, etc. etc.

I'm starting to wonder if there is a crack in the head that me and the machine shop missed that oil is leaking into cyls 2&3? (You would think that would affect compression #s.) It's not coming from anywhere on the IM or PCV system, I checked all that throughly for oil before I rebuilt the head.

I may just buy an ES2 from the junkyard and swap that in next time I visit my parents. I love how this car drives and it's time to retire my beat ass 3gee.

[2ndGenGuy]

Just swap the A20 from the beat ass 3gee.

[carotman]

If it's an 84, it will be easy to swap in an A20A. They are cheap too. I would go that route.

[2ndGenGuy]

One thing just came to mind... Is the ET even a CVCC engine?

I thought the ET2 was the same as the A18...

If it's from a Prelude and CVCC, it might be an ES1.

If you got the ET2 valve seals, they might be the wrong seals! Which is why it's so leaky!!!

Oh man I'm a dumbass... Read the title and thought you were having problems after the swap... DURR.

[Ichiban]

The only thing I can recommend at this point is to do a leakdown test on #2 and 3 with the valve cover off. Look for bubbles. Or shut off the engine, pull the manifolds off and check for oil pooling on top of the valves the next day. I'm also with the guys when they say to swap in the A20, solves the whole problem, and way more power.

[MessyHonda]

hey its mustardcat

[MustardCat]

Hello messy. :-)

So the A20 goes in easy? I already knew it would basicly bolt in but I wasnt sure about wiring and axles. Anymore info on this? This would be a much cheaper option for me since I already have the donor car.

Thanks guys.

[MustardCat]

You guys are mean, teasing me with this FI A20 swap stuff and then not responding. ;-)

Anyways I've been thinking about it and one problem I see is the fuel system. I was thinking I could buy a walbro 190 lph inline pump and run new lines to supply fuel, and run a new return line right into the tank. Probably would just get rid of the stock a20 fuel filter and run an aftermarket one in it's place too.

You guys think that would work? The FI 84-85 accords use an external fuel pump right?

Im not sure about the harness though, I would swap in the whole a20 harness to the ECU, so the motor would run, but is the interior harness going to be compatable at all?

I work on a rotating schedule and every 3rd week I get 5 days off in a row. So I would have about 4 1/2 days to get this done. I could do the fuel system setup on one visit, then next time actually put the a20 in...

Anyways if I do this it will be fully documented and I will make a write-up for it.

[carotman]

You could just put a carb A20 in there too and forget about the EFI conversion.

If you want to go with EFI, the 2nd gen Accord SE-i used an external pump like you said. I'm not sure but all you would need to do is change the fuel strainer on the tank and run an external pump.

Then, if you take the wiring from the ECU to the engine, it should be relatively easy. The only thing the ECU controls outside of the engine itself is the Main Relay for the fuel pump.

What year is the donor car?

[MustardCat]

Donor would be an 88 LX-I. I have a dual carb and manifold off of an A18 85 prelude dx I could use as a backup, but I would really perfer fuel injection.


Heres what I figure I currently need to get or do for the swap:

Fuel system:
Fuel strainer from 84-85 SEI
New fuel pump made for fuel injected cars (Prolly just an inline walbro.)
Run new fuel feed line
Run new fuel return line and route it into the tank
Maybe new fuel filter setup, if it's going to be too much work to tie into the line going into the 88 fuel filter

Wiring:
88 harness to the ECU
Misc. interior wiring to the main relay
New wiring from the relay to the pump
Maybe some harness splicing for the front signal and lights


I should just be able to use the 85 trans with the A20 motor and not have to worry about axle ends matching etc. Does anyone know if all the A/E series trans use the same input shaft diameter and spline count? Or do I need to buy a clutch to match the ES trans and use the ES flywheel?

[MessyHonda]

dude sounds sweet. my friend had a 85 se-i and the fuel injection in it looked like a carb....wires and hoses going everywear...the 88lx-i fuel injection is much cleaner. if you need any help even some one just to keep you company hit me up. since you are also in the bay area right? i would not mind stoping by to check it out in person

[88Accord-DX]

Since you had all that work done to the head. Have it pressure tested, that'll let you know if there are any cracks in it. Can't beleive they didn't do that when it was rebuilt. Pressure testing is pretty reasonable, around $25-$35. All they do is plug everything, pressurize it with air under water.

[MustardCat]

dude sounds sweet. my friend had a 85 se-i and the fuel injection in it looked like a carb....wires and hoses going everywear...the 88lx-i fuel injection is much cleaner. if you need any help even some one just to keep you company hit me up. since you are also in the bay area right? i would not mind stoping by to check it out in person

Well I live in Redwood city, but my 2g is in Washington state and thats where I would be doing the work. There regular 3geez meets down here? I had to leave my prelude at my parents and have been driving my beater 3gee (motor good, eveything else: bad!) for the last year and am having withdrawls, I havent been to any kind of car "meet" in years.


ddude2uc: I think I'm set on this A20 swap, but I will definitely open up the ES2 and figure out exactly WTF is going on with it. For future reference if nothing else.

[2ndGenGuy]

PhydeauX was using a 2g Prelude dual carb tranny in his car, with the cars original driveshafts. The ES2 and the Prelude tranny's had the same flywheel, etc, so you should be okay with the ES2 tranny on the A20 motor. You just have to use the ES2 flywheel / clutch.

[2ndGenGuy]

Well I live in Redwood city, but my 2g is in Washington state and thats where I would be doing the work. There regular 3geez meets down here? I had to leave my prelude at my parents and have been driving my beater 3gee (motor good, eveything else: bad!) for the last year and am having withdrawls, I havent been to any kind of car "meet" in years.
ddude2uc: I think I'm set on this A20 swap, but I will definitely open up the ES2 and figure out exactly WTF is going on with it. For future reference if nothing else.

Where in Washington are you going to be doing the work? If you're not too far away, I'd love to help out with it... If you are looking for help.

[carotman]

Yup, you can use the same tranny.

You got the swap pretty much figured. You don't need to route a fuel return line tough. Use the carb feed line as the return line, that's what Honda did anyway.

I would just get the engine witing from the 88 and add it to your 84 Accord. don't swap harnesses, it's going to be a pain (of mix/match the harnesses together).

You'll need the vacuum control box too. and the wires going to it. It's not a bad thing by itself.

[MustardCat]

Where in Washington are you going to be doing the work? If you're not too far away, I'd love to help out with it... If you are looking for help.

Far away. :-) North of Marysville, in a little town called Mount Vernon. Right now I have a 2g lude carb tranny mated to my a20, but I had to install the accord drive pinion gears into the diff. so the LXi axles would fit into it. If I have extra time I may put the old gears in and use this trans for the shorter gearing.

You auto-x right? How do you feel about the stock gearing? The few times I drove the 2gee it seemed like the gearing was noticeably taller then the 2g lude trans. (and waaay taller then then my 3G lude.)

carotman: Thats an excellent idea for the return line, didn't even occur to me.