Engine Swaps

[Boltgunner]

My Pacesetter buzzes every now and then against the crossmember. Gotta get a touch of heat and leverage in there to open up the gaposis...

[Ichiban]

Well, I finished the piece on Thursday, and right now it's sitting under the car. I won't get to find out if it fits until the car comes back from inspection and I finish the swap.

[2ndGenGuy]

No mock fitting? Do you have to have the engine in for inspection? Or are you going to tow it in?

[Ichiban]

It's going in with the 1602 intact and running, as the car has to be test driven. I'm avoiding the headaches of explaining a PGMFI equipped 82 Hatch with a goofy looking crossmember during th inspection.

[2ndGenGuy]

Oh yeah good call...

It's rediculous what they'll pull your cars off the roads for. And driving drunk is a 24 hours suspension right?

Here, driving drunk is jailtime, car impound, year license suspension, $1000 fine. But you can drive down the road with your front end about to fall off, billowing black smoke no problem.

Just seems kinda wierd how it's the opposite.

[2ndGenGuy]

Bump? Any new progress?

[Ichiban]

The crossmember is done, painted and pretty. Today I'm gonna be pulling the front end of the car over about a half inch with the come-along, in an attempt to straighten out the hood and fender gaps.

[toddnjoy]

i have a 83 accord sedan and it has the EK1 and id like some info on available rebuilt engines or where to get mine rebuilt.

[2ndGenGuy]

i have a 83 accord sedan and it has the EK1 and id like some info on available rebuilt engines or where to get mine rebuilt.

Good luck on that. There's no national reputable shops. The best thing to do is find some car guys in your area, and ask them about some good engine builder. A good builder can build any engine. But some of the guys who specialize in old V8's won't be used to the tight tolerances of the Honda engines. Try and find a guy who speicalizes in Hondas, but not a "speed shop". Like a guy who maybe has worked on or works on really old Hondas back when they were new.

[2ndGenGuy]

The crossmember is done, painted and pretty. Today I'm gonna be pulling the front end of the car over about a half inch with the come-along, in an attempt to straighten out the hood and fender gaps.

So what's new man? Haven't heard from you in a while, and you're not on MSN anymore. What's the dealio?

[Ichiban]

been super busy with the end of school and trying to support myself. Did get paint for the car, but there's still a bulk of work before that happens. As soon as the paint is done, it's all fun again, but I might be moving for work sometime soon.

[Ichiban]

Turns out I'm working in town now, but the Slovenian machine shop boss only pays 11 an hour. I work like a dog but I'll be putting time into the car soon. Gonna drive it this summer!!

[2ndGenGuy]

Cool man! it's a start! Congrats on the new job! Lemme know if you wanna get some shit done on that car some weekend. I'll fly over there and we could get some work knocked out...

[Ichiban]

Wow, my last post was over a year ago in this thread. New developments include:

-Obtained Prelude Si hub flanges (and rear disc brakes as well)
-Have B20A5 Intermediate shaft (from auto, but I know how make it work with the standard.
-Have finally settled on an engine, it's an aluminum block A20 with a funny wide and gold valve cover with plug wires coming out of it
-Having serious second thoughts about using the custom crossmember I fabricated earlier in the thread. I'm thinking goofy exhaust will be the answer.

[Ichiban]

I remember the frt track was different 2-2.5, so assume from your choice that lower control arms stayed the same & their mountings spread -along with body mtgs & trailing arm mtgs.
Be interesting to see comparison between the two subframes & how big the changes were.

It turns out you were right in this regard. I had noticed during fitting the 2.5 g member to the jig, that the angle between the two bolt holes at the end of each radius rod didn't perfectly align with the holes in the jig. I actually checked it a few times with the original x-member, and the jig was correct, just the leading ends of the trailing arms were spread apart slightly. After research, I found out the 2.5 g is in fact 15mm wider in the front than the 2g. I'm sure I can force the radius rod to bend slightly to fit my LCA's, but the 7.5mm (.295") difference per side is also going to affect my plans to use the SE-i axles. I may have to shorten those as well.

I am also leery of using my crossmember due to the thin material and welding. It's critical to steering, locates the front wheels, and transmits most/all braking/acceleration forces to the chassis. It is a prime candidate for fatigue, add more power, geometry changes, aggressive driving and the weight of an engine twisting it out of shape, and it's bound to fail. Not something I want in the mountains with my wife in the car.

79cord, I welcome your input on this thread. 2genguy, I EXPECT you to post up here

We'll see what happens

[2ndGenGuy]

Oh man you had me at that aluminum block A20 thing. I was like WTF. Then I was like OH.

As far as the axles go, remember the guy from Dominican Republic who put the B20A in his 2.5g hatch? He just put the B20A cups on his halfshafts. So why don't you put some A20 inner cups on your halfshafts? Sounds like an inexpensive way to go, and you'll keep your lengths. Though I wonder if the distance from the left mount to the center of the transmission is the same from the EL to the B20A? I think you're going to have to do some test fitting first thing...

Also, sounds like you're already ahead of me! I wish I could ship out your engine ASAP, but it came at a bad time. I am going to be gone to warmer lands until the 15th of December, and I will try to get your engine shipped up to you ASAP when I get back. I'll probably cut down the big box in half and make a little box out of it... It's going to be a painful vacation, all I'll be thinking about is getting home to work on the B20A swap... maybe I'll skip the vacation and just stay home and work on it... hmm!

[Ichiban]

Oh man you had me at that aluminum block A20 thing. I was like WTF. Then I was like OH.

As far as the axles go, remember the guy from Dominican Republic who put the B20A in his 2.5g hatch? He just put the B20A cups on his halfshafts. So why don't you put some A20 inner cups on your halfshafts? Sounds like an inexpensive way to go, and you'll keep your lengths. Though I wonder if the distance from the left mount to the center of the transmission is the same from the EL to the B20A? I think you're going to have to do some test fitting first thing...

Also, sounds like you're already ahead of me! I wish I could ship out your engine ASAP, but it came at a bad time. I am going to be gone to warmer lands until the 15th of December, and I will try to get your engine shipped up to you ASAP when I get back. I'll probably cut down the big box in half and make a little box out of it... It's going to be a painful vacation, all I'll be thinking about is getting home to work on the B20A swap... maybe I'll skip the vacation and just stay home and work on it... hmm!

I already know that the distance from bellhousing face to side mount is longer on the B20A than the EL, at least it is on the A-series, and the cam gears on the B20A stick out that much farther. This shouldn't be too much of a problem, I'll just reorganise that mount, provided the side of the engine doesn't interfere with the frame rail. If I remember correctly, the engine bay of the last 3gee I gutted was actually slightly narrower rail to rail measured at the shock towers than my 2gen.

I have a set of inside CV cups from a third gen I swiped from the wrecking yard. When I test fit them to the EL axles, I found out that the inside diameter of the 3gen cups is actually larger, and the 3 bearings don't sit on the tripod properly. You can't use the 3g tripod either, as the splines are larger in diameter.

Enjoy the vacation. I'll be freezing in this crackhead shithole known as Red Deer.

[79cord]

As another alternative regarding hybridizing driveshafts. The cups & tripod/yokes could be swapped at the shaft if their attachment splines matched... Often they can be forced apart...

1st gen 85-88 Integra might also provide some usefull parts...

Heres some junk dimensions I dug up previously from the Honda UK website that has had some w/shop manuals on various Honda (Including B20 2g Prelude, but not Integra) that gives some short-side drive-shaft lengths of:

'79-81 Accord (& Prelude) 477+/- 5mm (short-side)
3G Civic 471-476mm (short-side)
3G Civic/ CR-X ZC 469-474mm (=, but inner ends varied, on early cars)
4G Civic/ CR-X 481-486mm (short-side)
4G Civic/ CR-X 485-490mm (=)
4G Civic/ CR-X SiR/VTi vtec 463-468mm (=)

Later cars would only be wider so probably not much use.
Probably an assortment of spline patterns between them though.

Assorted front tracks of various Honda for interest:
1st gen Accord 1400mm
2nd gen Accord 1430
2.5 gen Accord 1445
2nd gen Prelude 1470
1st gen Integra 1420
2nd gen Integra 1475
3rd gen Civic 1400
4th gen Civic 1450
5th gen Civic 1475

Interesting to note 1G Integra drivetrains often fitted into 3rd gen Civic (ZC or D16) despite 20 mm track Difference so not sure how thats done?

I have also heard of someone lengthening their 1G Accords lower suspension arms 10mm each side to fit 1G Integra drivetrain... also giving them negative camber....

[Ichiban]

Figured I'd update this thread as it's been going on for a few years. I should really stop whoring John's thread as well!

Thanks to 79'cord again, I'll be using the 1st gen Integra axles for my swap. They are slightly narrower than my factory axles, but as the B20A intermediate shaft doesn't quite "middle" the drivetrain relative to the hubs (it's actually slightly longer than needed) I feel that the shorter axles and some motor mount shimming will be sufficient. Also, internet research has proven the spline count to be as I require, mating the B18A tranny to the Prelude Si hub flanges.

In terms of the crossmember clearance issue, I've reached a conclusion. I'm going to test fit the engine with the original crossmember, and if exhaust clearance is impossible, I'll run the scary crossmember I modified earlier in this thread, until I can fabricate one from square tube based on ideas I stole from Pacesetter and Innovative via the internet. I've even found a likely location on the frame rails for adding an extra mounting bolt per side, with holes pre-punched and everything!

For anyone who cares: The reason I spent so much time modifying a stock crossmember is because I wanted to maintain a stock appearance for the purpose of roadside vehicle inspections. In BC, drivers of older vehicles basically expect to be harassed by semi-cops (pun just realized) who usually pick on heavy transport. These DOT idiots will blatantly make up shit to get your vehicle off the road and in for an inspection, and the sad part about it is that any modification of the undercarriage is illegal. Also, these assholes will make up reasons to fine and tow you depending on their mood.

So, after finding the plethora of aftermarket crossmembers on the net, I'm just going to engineer and build my own....if worse comes to worse, I'll just pass it off as "aftermarket crossmember".

Either way, I feel safer driving around with my wife and friends in a car where a major suspension component doesn't raise questions.

My god this is a long post.

Anyways, gonna be swapping the B20A into my 2.0.0G hatch! First on this site, and anywhere as far as I know!

Few things left to do:

-Get clutch/flywheel
-Pick a starter that works
-Buy axles/wheelbearings
-Press in new bearings and Si flanges
-Fab up front motor mount (rear EL mount fits!?!)
-Buy fuel pump for EFI/run new fuel lines
-Get on with the swap!!

[2ndGenGuy]

Yay good show! You know, I'm not getting hardly any torque steer right now, even with un-equal axles. Why do you say that the crossmember you made is scary? It looks good to me, and the design ideas behind it seem sound to me. Good luck with the 2.0.0G hatch. Can't wait to see it on the road. Lets get some pix now mmmkay? I didn't think you were whoring my thread BTW, I thought we kinda made it a general 2g Accord B20A swap thread for anybody swapping engines.

[denhonda]

I've acquired a b18c4 170bhp Civic Vti engine... now that would make my '82 a whole lot quicker! But my plan is just to sell it on for someone else to do a conversion on whatever they choose. Really beyond my very limited capabilities & I don't wanna lose my auto transmission either!

Good luck with your conversion though!

[badbobb]

ok, i know i should go bigger, but if my probs with car go further, im going to just take my old d15 that i had in my rex and just put it in the cord. i dont have money to buy a whole swap. besides, this d15 will be quicker than the ek thats in it now. now my question is this. how much work would be to do a d15 swap? just take the axles, ecu, harness, tranny, engine, and exhaust right? what about mounts? just weld on? right?

[Ichiban]

This weekend I'll be replacing the front and rear main seals on the B20A, and hopefully fitting up the transmission for good.

I just remembered, I need to machine two bellhousing to block dowell pins, as I lost/never had the OE ones, oh well, machinist anyways...

[2ndGenGuy]

I probably lost them. Or sent them off with the transmission. I never really noticed to be honest. Its gotta be the same size as any other Honda fitting dowel right? You should weld up my carb manifold. I might run those bike carbs later on down the road here, I have been thinking. Plus those aluminum tubes were expensive.

[Ichiban]

You should weld up my carb manifold. I might run those bike carbs later on down the road here, I have been thinking. Plus those aluminum tubes were expensive.

You should install it! I spent a lot of time on it!

Got the B20A at least sitting in the engine bay and rolling on the starter. I chopped out the rear mount from a 3g at the wreckers and welded it to my rear crossmember so I could run the 3g style mounts. The side mount doesn't really line up to anything, and the underneath tranny mount is fully disengaged and then some from the rubber piece it's supposed to sit on. Oh well, modify another mount and build a spacer I guess. Did run into some problems though, gonna detail those later when I'm not so chemo'd out, having a hard time focusing.