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Thread: Engine Swaps

  1. #1

    Ichiban's Avatar
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    Engine Swaps

    As there's much discussion elsewhere on the board regarding 2gen engine swaps, I figured I'd start an actual swap thread in the interests of making the information easier to follow.

    Anyways, lets discuss availiable engine swaps for the 2gen (82-83) and the 2.5 gen (84-85). See the sticky on the topic for a basic rundown.

    https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50189

    As most of us know, the 2.5 gen cars share the same family of engines as the 3g, (and 2nd gen prelude) and any swaps or tuning that apply also apply to you. However, the 2.5g never came with the A20, so that is your best bolt-in option. Ideal would be the JDM B20A, but we all know how hard they are to find.

    The early 2gen cars are a different story. They share an engine family with the 1st gen accord, the EK or EL engines. Right now I am attempting an A20 fuel injected swap on an 82. I expect to have to fabricate at least one motor mount, a custom exhaust header and down the road an elaborate axle/tranny/bearing swap. For the axle info, see the sticky.

    https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthrea...557#post609557

    I will post more info as it emerges.
    ICHIBAN!
    "Now, even more better!"



  2. #2

    shepherd79's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    if you are going to conver to EFI and make your engine mounts why not go with newer engines. B16, B18 or B20/vtec?
    Alex.

  3. #3

    Ichiban's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    Well, several reasons. I figure the A20 with some mods will give me enough power for fun on the street and the odd auto-x. Plus, parts are reasonably cheap, and the A-series "fits", I can use a tranny that doesn't require axle swaps afik, the jury is still out on the rear mount, the side mount can come from another car, the front mount can be modified by me in minutes to work, and I don't have to butcher the chassis of the car to mount the engine. Any other swap (other than going backwards in time) requires me to totally rethink the engine mounts as B, H, D etc use a completely different system of hanging the engine and tranny. Plus I paid $400 CDN for a complete A20A3 plus wiring harness and ECU, and I'm getting another complete car (minus tranny) with A20A4 for 75 bucks and an old TV. Either way, the A-swap, I believe, is the easiest and cheapest way to make the car go faster and still keep it "stock". Once the swap is completed, there should be no mod's to the car itself, in terms of chassis or mounts. It would technically be possible to put the EL back in, if one were so inclined.
    ICHIBAN!
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  4. #4
    2ndGenGuy
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    The A-series, I believe is the perfect swap for older Hondas. It's been tweaked enough to give a good amount of power stock for the 2nd gen. Also, it's old enough that when someone pops the hood, it's not a blaring obvious engine swap. Only someone who knows the old Accords will know. It makes them question the new car they bought when the older "unmodified" one kicks thier ass.

  5. #5
    LXi User 79cord's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    All makes sense -I'll pay attention since anything that could be done in this area to early 2g should also apply for 1st gen Accord or Prelude (excluding driveshaft lengths).
    You'd still have to get creative to make room for a forward exit exhaust wouldn't you? -or does 2g have more room here than 1g. I've seen pics of cut & reinforced frt subframes or cutting bodywork (on 1g) to route exhaust well forward of subframe.

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    Re: Engine Swaps

    one miniscule quesiton lol besided fabricating new mounts, what else would be necessary for an h22a to fit in a 2.5g? or is it not even possible?

  7. #7

    Ichiban's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    well, loko, for an H22 to go in, I'd imagine you would want to purchase an entire "clip", or a parts car from which you would source your swap. You'd need the engine, tranny, ecu and wiring harness. I believe the H22A trans is cable shift/hydraulic clutch, but not entirely sure. You would have to fabricate adaptors to operate these systems. The engine mounts would have to be accurately layed out, and then welded to the chassis. Exhaust would have to be fabricated to clear the front crossmember. As for axles, this is something you'd have to research and figure out, as it would be particular to your specific swap.

    79 cord, the early 2g is much like the 1g. My exhaust will either be routed to the right of the engine bay and under the tranny (preferable) or simply in front of the crossmember. If the former proves unworkable, then over the crossmember it will be. I do not plan on modifying the structure of the car in any way.
    ICHIBAN!
    "Now, even more better!"

  8. #8

    Ichiban's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    Quote Originally Posted by PhydeauX
    guyhatesmycar,

    I'll think about splitting this thread up later, I'm being too lazy to do it now. Whether or not the front/back or the drivers side mounts line up is really a matter of which one you connect first. In my case I connected the drivers side first because I figured the front/back would be easier to fabricate. But any way I did measure the blocks and found the EK to be an inch or so shorter then the A20. I couldn't see the EL block being longer then an EK. I had pictures of all this at one point but they were lost in a hard drive crash long ago.

    andy
    I was looking at the engine in my car today and it does look like there will be room for the block to come over. Any idea what the fudge factor is on the cv shafts and shift linkage?

    If anyone has a pic of their A16 or ES2 drivers side engine mount, could you post it please?
    ICHIBAN!
    "Now, even more better!"

  9. #9
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    drivers side engine mount eh would i have to lift the car? i have an A16 so tell what i have to do to get a pic of it
    I love my accord with its mega rare A16A1 engine and its awesome loud roar. but I have to walk to japan just to find parts for it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tQXyXJGITU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onujMwkBLr0

  10. #10
    3Geez Veteran MessyHonda's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndGenGuy
    The A-series, I believe is the perfect swap for older Hondas. It's been tweaked enough to give a good amount of power stock for the 2nd gen. Also, it's old enough that when someone pops the hood, it's not a blaring obvious engine swap. Only someone who knows the old Accords will know. It makes them question the new car they bought when the older "unmodified" one kicks thier ass.

    i like that.

    1989 Honda Accord LX-i
    B18c1 swap since 7/2011
    175whp and 132tq
    Redzone tuned

  11. #11

    Ichiban's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    I actually found pic's of the side mounts on the internet, mainly over at preludepower. I'll post em up later today, I also discovered that the side mount on the block itself is bolted on, and may interchange with the shorter EK mount. More on this later.
    ICHIBAN!
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  12. #12

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    Re: Engine Swaps

    Quote Originally Posted by guyhatesmycar
    ... Any idea what the fudge factor is on the cv shafts and shift linkage? ...
    If, as you said in the other thread, you got the rear mount to line up then there shouldn't have to fudge much if anything. The 2g and 2.5g have the same track width so the 2.5g axles should work as long as the diff is in the right spot. I believe the drivers side of the diff case is the exact center of the car. It's either that or the bolt of the motor mount I forget which but they are very close. Thats an easy way to estimate if its lined up. You get an inch or so play either way but make sure to fully compress the suspension and check that the axles don't bind. Also raise it to full droop and make sure that they don't try to pop out of the cups. I'm not 100% sure but I'd put money on if you got the original rear mount on the prelude tranny and it lined up with the stock mount then you'll be fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by guyhatesmycar
    If anyone has a pic of their A16 or ES2 drivers side engine mount, could you post it please?
    I've found a drivers side mount sitting around in my "box of car parts that I should probably throw away but keep just in case some day they turn out to be useful" the other day. I'm not sure whether its the old EK mount or perhaps an ES mount that I happened to pick up along the way. (Actually I'm not even sure its a honda mount not that I think about it, it could be the MR2 pass side mount that came from the 4agze in my nova). I'll try to figure that one out and post a pic of it. I may even chase the squirrels out from the engine bay of the 2g and try to compare it to the ES mount thats in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by guyhatesmycar
    actually found pic's of the side mounts on the internet, mainly over at preludepower. I'll post em up later today, I also discovered that the side mount on the block itself is bolted on, and may interchange with the shorter EK mount. More on this later.
    The EK mount will bolt to the ET block no problem. I used the EK drivers side mount on my A20 when I tried to mount it in my 83. It didn't need any modification, just bolted right on. That said the front and rear mounts didn't line up which makes me think that the ET mount may actually be the shorter one.

    andy
    Last edited by PhydeauX; 01-04-2007 at 07:50 PM.


  13. #13

    Ichiban's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    Quote Originally Posted by PhydeauX

    The EK mount will bolt to the ET block no problem. I used the EK drivers side mount on my A20 when I tried to mount it in my 83. It didn't need any modification, just bolted right on. That said the front and rear mounts didn't line up which makes me think that the ET mount may actually be the shorter one.

    andy
    Do you mean the mount that bolts directly to the side of the block, not to the rubber insulator on the car? It does make sense that the ET mount is shorter, as the ET block is longer, and I'm hoping the engine bays between 2 and 2.5 g are more similar than we thought. What I'm looking at is leaving the A-series side mount on the engine and getting a 2.5g car side mount to bolt to that. If all goes well, problem solved.
    ICHIBAN!
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  14. #14


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    Re: Engine Swaps

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndGenGuy
    The A-series, I believe is the perfect swap for older Hondas. It's been tweaked enough to give a good amount of power stock for the 2nd gen. Also, it's old enough that when someone pops the hood, it's not a blaring obvious engine swap. Only someone who knows the old Accords will know. It makes them question the new car they bought when the older "unmodified" one kicks thier ass.

    Power to the A-Series!
    2004-2011?

  15. #15

    Cheeseburger's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    A for the win!

  16. #16
    3Geez Veteran MessyHonda's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    yeah 200 NA hp is a crazy build...you can get like 150 hp out of a semi performance rebuild.

    1989 Honda Accord LX-i
    B18c1 swap since 7/2011
    175whp and 132tq
    Redzone tuned

  17. #17
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    ok i took pics of my A16A mounts for you guys



    I love my accord with its mega rare A16A1 engine and its awesome loud roar. but I have to walk to japan just to find parts for it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tQXyXJGITU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onujMwkBLr0

  18. #18

    Ichiban's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    Okee, well, after looking at about 50 pictures of EK, ES2 and ET mounts, I'd have to say that the drivers side mount from all of the above engines are the same, or relatively similar. I have a suspicion that the A20 mount from the 3g on the block side is about an inch longer.

    so...Andy.

    When you put the A20 into your 2.5g, did you use the mount that came on the A20 block, or did you pull the timing cover and swap in the one from the ES2 block?
    ICHIBAN!
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  19. #19

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    Re: Engine Swaps

    I'm fairly certain that I used the mount from the EK block. But I could be way wrong and have used the mount from the A20. It was 5 years ago or so (I think, I don't remember for sure) that I tried to do this and all of my post and pictures were lost a long time ago.. What ever the mount was I'm pretty sure that its the one I have sitting in my garage. I was able to determine that its definitely not the mr2 mount, though I have no idea where that sucker ended up. I haven't had a chance to measure it yet because I've been trying to retro fit my nova with edis. It would suck if I did use the a20 mount and that's why everything was off. I probably would have just grabbed a new cross member from the junkyard and kept the 83 if I'd realized how close it was.

    On the 2.5g I used the ES mount. I swapped all of the mounts from the ES over to the a20, they all bolted right on. I don't think I bothered to compare the side mount, I just swapped it with everything else.

    andy
    Last edited by PhydeauX; 01-08-2007 at 08:56 PM.


  20. #20

    Ichiban's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    So, in light of this information, when I go to test fit again, it will be with the A20 block, A18 tranny and the EL side mount, if it bolts to the A-block. If not, I'll use the ET2 side mount, and modify it to bolt to the car.
    ICHIBAN!
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  21. #21

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    Re: Engine Swaps

    Today in school after some thought, I've decided to tackle the task of modifying and reworking the 85 hatch front crossmember to fit my 82. I constructed a jig consisting of 2 pins to align the x member mounting bolt holes, and 2 pieces of square tube with 2 holes each to simulate the location of the lower control arms. All pieces were aligned with an 82 crossmember, then welded to the table. My plan is to bolt the 85 crossmember to the LCA reference points, cut off both ends, and reshape them to fit on the pins. The idea is that when the 85 piece fits on the jig, it will fit on the car, and give me the clearance for the exhaust that I need. Pic's tomorrow.
    ICHIBAN!
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  22. #22
    2ndGenGuy
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    Bad ass! I'm very interested in seeing this! Some good fabrication pics would kick ass!

  23. #23
    LXi User 79cord's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    I must admit I would feel more comfortable modifying the cars original subframe to clear the exhaust than the later subframe to fit the car. Just in case the relationship between the body mounting points & suspension mountings -both lower control arms, anti-roll bar & lower trailing arms had changed...(forgot that the Anti-roll bar goes to the rear on 2nd gen).
    But I don't know how big a factor the frt engine mount is in your decision.

    I remember the frt track was different 2-2.5, so assume from your choice that lower control arms stayed the same & their mountings spread -along with body mtgs & trailing arm mtgs.
    Be interesting to see comparison between the two subframes & how big the changes were.

  24. #24

    Ichiban's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    The track width is exactly the same between 2-2.5g cars. Because of the jig I constructed, the trailing arms will locate the LCA's in the EXACT same position as the originals. When I'm finished, the new crossmember will bolt to the car just like the old one, but with clearance for the exhaust. When honda designed the new crossmember, they not only curved it to provide clearance, they also mounted it farther forward by about an inch, well, 1.125" according to my measurements. As the rest of the suspension didn't move, they lengthened the trailing arms and changed their angle to compensate.

    Anyways, today I got going. I lifted off the 82 crossmember from the completed jig and threw it away. I then fitted the 85 member with bolts to the LCA reference points, aligned the partial transmission member with the center plate welded to the table, and let the actual beam sit on the two locating pins for the body mounting positions. After some rudimentary measurements and a lot of thought, I started cutting. I removed each end by cutting 90 to the centerline, then fitted the ends over the locating pins and traced out the cut edge. I got as far as trimming the excess to get a basic fit, but time ran out before I tacked anything in place.
    ICHIBAN!
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  25. #25

    Ichiban's Avatar
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    Re: Engine Swaps

    Pictures are in no particular order. My camera fucked up so I got what I got.

    You can see where the trailing arms bolt to the LCA reference points on the brackets welded to the table. This setup kills 2 birds with one overkill 12 gauge blast, as now not only does my exhaust fit, but so does the A-series factory mount.










    Last edited by Ichiban; 02-14-2007 at 05:26 PM.
    ICHIBAN!
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