honda challenge

[hot-87-hatch]

I have an 87 hatch that i have driven daily and loved for three years. It's time has come and i now drive a 98 acura tl. I still have the shell. I've been reading about a nasa racing series called the honda challenge. I have decided that over the course of the next year to try and prep my shell for this series. the challenge is ther are currently no 3rd gen accords in this series (mostly integras and civics) or any accords for that matter. While I am confident I can prep the chassis suitably for this competition, I am not so sure the power the A20 can provide is enough. In fact I am certain it is not. Forced induction is no allowed in this series which is an advantage to me because power production is thusly limited. So i need to source a b20 and and manual tranny to make up the deficit.

Ive always dreamed of an experience in racing and and I feel like this car is my best shot at a healthy start. I know a lot of you prepped your cars for street use but any information regarding track use would be most helpful.

My plan for chassis setup is simple consisting of weight reduction, chassis reinforcement and basic suspension goods. My only concern is power. I believe I have the talent as driver to make this possible. I just need the car.

If anybody has the balls to help make this happen, and demonstrate what the 3gee is really capable of please contact me via this website. I would like to get this ball rolling.

[AccordEpicenter]

damn if it was forced induction allowed then i could get you all the power in the world, but youre gonna need alot of headwork and valvetrain work to make alot of power NA, but it can be done. Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go? The only real downside to the a20 engine/trans ive found is that a good lsd is non existant, which is only soo much of a problem in drag racing but it can be a real problem in fast road racing. How fast are some of these other cars?

[Vanilla Sky]

Orlando, that means you're close to my junkyard.

to be honest, the A20 will provide plenty of power. read through some of the posts by Rjudgey. He races A20 preludes in the UK. His engines net around 200BHP. That's certainly enough to make you competitive.

I'd start out with a simple DCOE inlet manifold, some DCOE 45s, a full engine rebuild with A18 valvesprings, 11:1 compression pistons, B18 rods, a serious port and polish, and of course a good exhaust system. I'm confident that you would then be competitive with the b series cars.

If you want a front cut for fabbing, I have a front cut from an 87 LXi that you can have if you pick it up. I'll help you load it on your trailer.

I also have a spare engine that you could have for cheap. If you want the whole car, I'll let it go for $200. Clear title and everything. I have a running Accord coupe that I'd let go for $400 that has a newly rebuilt head, but I see that as useless in your case. Since you have an 87, you could benifit from the larger front brakes from an 88 or 89 LXi. I have a set of those as well.

I'm trying to clean my junkyard out, and if you want some stuff and can pick it up, I'll let things go pretty cheaply. If you will help pull the parts, I'll go even lower on prices.

If you're serious about getting a NASA car built, I'm serious about helping out. I've wanted a chance to get in on the ground floor of a racing team, and I see this as my chance. Like I said, I'm only 2 hours away in heavy traffic from metro Orlando. I have a lot of stuff that I've never posted here on 3geez concerning overall performance, but mostly suspension. Let's get together and build a Civic eater.

[snoopyloopy]

it should be doable. like they said, rjudgey is building 200 hp a20's over in britain. and not too long ago, a 300+ hp a20-powered 84 civic racer sold on ebay. so the a20 definitely has potential. and if that's the potential of the a20, 400 hp may be doable on the b20 if you do manage to actually get one. the intake manifolds interchange between a20 and accord b20a, so you could probably start with the a20 setup and integra geared tranny to get going if you're not able to get the b20 in time. the good thing about the b20a is that you can use the lsd that fits that tranny in the b20a tranny as well. so the gears may be interchangeable as well, but no one as ever tried it to my knowledge. however, it won't bolt up.

[MessyHonda]

yeah mike coupe is pushing out 165 whp with just a motor rebuild and lots of goddies. that is like 195 crank hp....he is close to 200 hp and this is NA....the a20 is a plenty strong engine if you have the right parts.

[guaynabo89]

I have an 87 hatch that i have driven daily and loved for three years. It's time has come and i now drive a 98 acura tl. I still have the shell. I've been reading about a nasa racing series called the honda challenge. I have decided that over the course of the next year to try and prep my shell for this series. the challenge is ther are currently no 3rd gen accords in this series (mostly integras and civics) or any accords for that matter. While I am confident I can prep the chassis suitably for this competition, I am not so sure the power the A20 can provide is enough. In fact I am certain it is not. Forced induction is no allowed in this series which is an advantage to me because power production is thusly limited. So i need to source a b20 and and manual tranny to make up the deficit.
Ive always dreamed of an experience in racing and and I feel like this car is my best shot at a healthy start. I know a lot of you prepped your cars for street use but any information regarding track use would be most helpful.
My plan for chassis setup is simple consisting of weight reduction, chassis reinforcement and basic suspension goods. My only concern is power. I believe I have the talent as driver to make this possible. I just need the car.
If anybody has the balls to help make this happen, and demonstrate what the 3gee is really capable of please contact me via this website. I would like to get this ball rolling.

How much money are you planning on spending?

What are the rules as far as modifying the car, engine, suspension, tranny?

[AccordEpicenter]

i was reading some of the rules and head porting and internal mods are extermely restricted in most classes so i guess it depends. That doesnt make it unobtainable but it could restrict your options (and costs)

[hot-87-hatch]

I am excited about all the feedback. I feel like there is a lot of knowledge out there that isn't being put to good use.

Sky, I have yet to put a real solid plan together, but I will definately be in touch about this. I have a lot more research to do as far as what direction I want to take this thing as far as a drivetrain and financing and other official matters must be attended to as well.

As far as allowed modifications, there are many restrictions. I was aiming a starting in the lowest class as an H1 hybrid. That's if I can find a B20.

In any class, internal modification of the engine is very limited. Compression can only be raised via headgsket modification or cylinder head milling but only to .5 over stock. Oem or Oem eq. pistons must be used and boring is limited to 1mm over. Balancing and blueprinting is allowed but lightning is prohibited beyond what is removed in the balancing process. oem valves. 5 angles allowed i'm assuming. oem cam gear. exhaust unrestricted. Anyh ecu may be used as long as it is a honda factory unit. Reflashes and tunable ecus allowed (xenocron interested in jumping on board?). oem throttle body. underdrive allowed. the elect advance dizzy mod so often discussed on these pages is allowed. ingintion onrestricted so long as an oem dizzy is used. ANyway all these limiting factors make for a not so powerful A20. Tuning is allowed but your only tuning to an exhaust system and manifold. without higher compression at least and without adjustable camming, how much can you possibly make.

As a purist, as much as I would love to use an a20 it just doesn't add up. I think a swap is definately in order. What is intriguing about a swap is the minimum weight requirements for different engines used. It says they calculate this based on potential power to weight. I've never read about anything but b20 and b18/16 being feasible swaps. What is interesting is a d series would have the lowest weight requirement at 1950 pounds in H1. That's light as hell. 200 pounds less than the B20 requirement. Plus the tuning possibilties are less limited in H2 should we want to graduate.

There is so much to figure out. Even as I write this a million questions are clogging my head and I am very tired. Let's just keep the conversation going and see where it takes us. Any ideas are welcome.

[hot-87-hatch]

One other thing. If anyone would like to read the rules themselves. www.hondachallenge.com

How much am I willing to spend? Well I don't make too much. 30-40 a year. Not exactly high society. Obstacles like cost and logistics are there, but time is money and making money takes time. As long as patience and dedication remain in tact, any problem can be overcome.

[Vanilla Sky]

Years ago, I had sourced an Accord B20A with a manual transmission. Granted it was years ago, it proves that they are available. Now that we have New Zealand members, B series manuals will be easier to source.

One thing that wasn't clear was changing the gearing in the transmission. They say you must use OEM parts, but can we change the gearing using OEM parts and get away with it?

Honestly, I think this would do well as a collaboration project. I can donate time and spare parts. Maybe Guaynabo could feed some input as well. There are other local 3geez members that may also wish to help. I think a race meet would be great for those wishing to participate in the build.

I agree that going H1 with the fewest restrictions is best for this build. We can port the head in H1, and we can port match the IM, AND use a BLOX Type R replica.

I know cost is an issue here. Do we have to provide reciepts of parts purchased, or do they not care? Perhaps building a GRM car as practice would be a good idea? Use that car as a test mule for the HC car. I imagine it would be cheaper than blowing up the race car just to see what any certain change would net us in the end. I have a sedan and a coupe I'm willing to use as our mule. I'd prefer using the coupe as it's already been partially prepped and has some performance modifications done. If we're going with a GRM car, it only cost me $100 plus parts I had laying around, whereas my usable sedan cost me $550. Gives us another $450 to play with if we decide to enter it in a GRM challenge race.

[AccordEpicenter]

you could use a lude tranny but for a significant advantage the B20 is probably going to be your best bet by far in this instance, if you can find one. I think thats the first time ive ever said that lol

[snoopyloopy]

overdoseda18a has two b20a-powered cars. and i get the feeling that he'll only fix one of them as the other one the engine is a little on the low side. maybe he'll be willing to sell it to you. but you'll probably have to find a manual tranny, but at least you got the engine part covered. and if all else fails, you could fab an adapter plate and run a b-series tranny.

[Vanilla Sky]

Yeah, I wasn't aware that the honda challenge rules were so restrictive. I was all for a high revving a20 with dual carbs myself.

[87LXiR]

Motor swaps are a deffinit no-no for h1 you got to run in a different class if you wanna run a b20. As for gearing you can change the ratios inside as long as its honda so your best bet is either the prelude gears or the teggys. Id say the prelude might suit better for a race track as i would imagine the tegs might be to short and youl be constantly shifting. I would imaine that the prelude gears might keep you in your powerband better on a road course. My advice for power yould probobly be to run an 89 header and 2.25 piping as the rules state you can have anything from the header back. kn filter good plugs (denso iridiums) and wires. I know the plugs arent restricted but not sure bou the wires. Your best bet is handling and youre driving skill so shocks and springs are a must. You cant be lower than four inches from the ground so maybe a 1-1.5 inch drop is good. SEI sway bars with polygraphit bushings. And i would recomend lightening youre 3g as much as possible cuz those little civics have a mean power to weight ratio. I thought about doing this myself thats why i have some knoledge of the series rules. Hopefully i to will run in h1 too, good luck. oh and i know there are some vids on youtube just type in honda challenge. those guys got skill and some bad ass cars i like the teg he has a weird name youl see in the vids.

[Vanilla Sky]

H1 is the top class. Not sure if it's something they changed, but I would call H1 the motor swap class.

[87LXiR]

Isnt H1 the entry class or is that H4. Ah whatever guess i gotta go read the rules again. Oh and the driver i mentioned eirlier his name is edik stepanyan, dude i love the sound of his integra its so badass.

[Vanilla Sky]

Yeah, according to the current rules, H4 is the entry class.

[johndej]

H4 is deff the entry class. I'm personally friends with and ex H2 champion (east coast) who then won some H1 races. He raced a partially sponsored H22 prelude and went through 2 engines since I’ve know him to be racing. H1 was a tough class w/ lots of type-rs and s2000s so you'd deff be advised to stay outta there and in H4. He's been fairly completive part time racing a 95 accord in H4 (has a track record at summit point) since he decided to get married and sell the lude.

[Oldblueaccord]

Well I think it be a fun thing to do. I would just run the box stock H5 class until your ready to step up to something better and more money.

Im reading the rules as I write this>>> you need a roll cage and the minimium weight is 2500 I think that be hard to get lower than that with our cars.

Depending on the tracks, short small ones, the motor wont make as much differance. Long straights the big HP wins always.

7.8 is the suspension rules. I would do the suspension since I think it be cheapest.


wp

[hot-87-hatch]

I've contacted Nasa for information about what class we could run with a b20 swap. wAITING FOR A REPLAY. IF THEY'LL ALLOW US TO RUN IN H4 a stock b20 than we can run in H5 with a fresh a20 untill a b20 is sourced and built. That would also be plenty of time to get the chassis built and dialed in.

[MessyHonda]

if not you can swap in a b18 with custom mounts....because a b20 is hard to find

[AccordEpicenter]

true but then youre probably getting into the same area as civic hatches with H22s in them, and youll have a hard ass time trying to win against stuff like that