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Thread: sloted rotors

  1. #51


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    Re: sloted rotors

    Try high speed steel if you got one its a little more forgiven to shock then carbides are.

    Mine were on what looked like and old Ammaco brake lathe at a NAPA thats closed now. He just told me he made 3 light passes.

    Luckily i havent had a warped rotor in more than a year since I went to Type R brakes. It was the number one reason I did it.


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  2. #52
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    Re: sloted rotors

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin
    What part of "whenever I switch pads" did you not understand???? It's normal brake work procedure to turn the rotors if you're putting on new pads.

    PS: Stop with the double negatives. It's confusing.
    It's not confusing.

    And you still didn't answer why you have your brakes turned, part of normal brake work? What for? It costs $10 to have a rotor turned at least, and new *cheap* rotors are like $15 each. So why would you shave material off of your rotors. I GET that it's part of your normal brake work, but WHY? Why would you do something that you don't need to do?

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike10562004
    i would like to see the machine you got them turned on b/c you cant turn them on any of ours they use a dimond plated triangle tooth to cut them so there is no possible way you can have sloted rotors turned
    <big> they prob. just buffed them with the dimond brush its like a sanding wheel but it has dimond plated balls on it
    It is a copper colored triangle or square? That is a carbide insert. I doubt anyone would use PCBN tooling for surfacing brakes, ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin
    No. It'll cause uneven wear. Even if you 'turn' them, the uneven sections of 'cementite' will still wear unevenly, causing brake pulsation to return very quickly.
    This is absolute BS. Cementite (or Iron Carbide Fe3C) forms in steel and iron as it is cooled below its lower critical temperature, which is around 725 Celsius. Above this temperature, carbon is actually solulable in iron, but when it cools, it is "kicked out" of solution with the iron, and coalesces into pockets of cementite and almost pure iron, called ferrite. Together these patches of ferrite and cementite are termed "Pearlite". These microstructures are here to stay, and in any particular proportion that they were originally present in. They can be modified by cold working, forging, or heat treating, but not changed in quantity. One cannot form more cementite in a piece of iron, no matter how hard you brake.
    I'd love to scan my notes and textbooks on the subject, if anyone disagrees.
    I studied metallurgy in school, being, well, a machinist, so if you want to argue about metal, you've come to the wrong place.
    Oh, and who the hell is Carroll Smith?
    Finally, who honestly believes that a brake rotor that is heated unevenly and cooled even more unevenly is not going to experience internal stresses leading to warping and cracking? Think about it. The outer disc of the rotor is heated rapidly, as well as subjected to a lot of force, while the center of the rotor sits on a nice cold hub. Furthermore, that smoking hot rotor starts to cool as soon as you do stop, well, except for the 1/3 of its face which is still covered by and in contact with smoking hot brake pads. Now it is cooling unevenly across its face. Tell me that won't warp a rotor.
    Cementite indeed!
    Last edited by HostileJava; 06-13-2007 at 07:36 AM.
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  4. #54
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    Re: sloted rotors

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndGenGuy
    It's not confusing.
    And you still didn't answer why you have your brakes turned, part of normal brake work? What for? It costs $10 to have a rotor turned at least, and new *cheap* rotors are like $15 each. So why would you shave material off of your rotors. I GET that it's part of your normal brake work, but WHY? Why would you do something that you don't need to do?
    Uh, it wasn't on my 3G. On my 3g, I just use new rotors whenever I switch pads, they're cheap. My other cars are rare enough not to have nice cheap rotors available. Rotors on those cars unfortunately cost upwards of $300 a set.
    Last edited by Kelvin; 06-09-2007 at 08:37 PM.

  5. #55
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    Re: sloted rotors

    Quote Originally Posted by guyhatesmycar
    This is absolute BS. Cementite (or Iron Carbide Fe3C) forms in steel and iron as it is cooled below its lower critical temperature, which is around 725 Celsius. Above this temperature, carbon is actually solulable in iron, but when it cools, it is "kicked out" of solution with the iron, and coalesces into pockets of cementite and almost pure iron, called ferrite. Together these patches of ferrite and cementite are termed "Pearlite". These microstructures are here to stay, and in any particular proportion that they were originally present in. They can be modified by cold working, forging, or heat treating, but not changed in quantity. One cannot form more cementite in a piece of iron, no matter how hard you brake.
    I'd love to scan my notes and textbooks on the subject, if anyone disagrees.
    I studied metallurgy in school, being, well, a machinist, so if you want to argue about metal, you've come to the wrong place.
    Oh, and who the hell is Carroll Smith?
    Finally, who honestly believes that a brake rotor that is heated unevenly and cooled even more unevenly is not going to experience internal stresses leading to warping and cracking? Think about it. The outer disc of the rotor is heated rapidly, as well as subjected to a lot of force, while the center of the rotor sits on a nice cold hub. Furthermore, that smoking hot rotor starts to cool as soon as you do stop, well, except for the 1/3 of its face which is still covered by and in contact with smoking hot brake pads. Now it is cooling unevenly across its face. Tell me that won't warp a rotor.
    Cementite indeed!
    Carroll Smith= author, racecar driver, engineer, famous in many of the world's biggest circuits.

    http://www.carrollsmith.com/biography/index.html

    Read it.

    Then read this:

    http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml

  6. #56

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    Re: sloted rotors

    Did you actually read what I wrote? I can scan and post pages from my textbook supporting this. I find it hard to believe that a guy who raced cars can upset centuries of chemical and metallurgical research. I've studied the subject in school; it's essential knowledge to what I do. You read one online article.

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  7. #57
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    Re: sloted rotors

    Yeah I did, and I also haven't read your vast experience in car racing, or your experience in lemans. What you say makes no sense to me, you're just saying a bunch of technobabble. Are you honestly saying that Carroll Smith is wrong? Because I doubt his book would have been published for this many years with a huge glaring flaw in it, especially when it's read by engineers/dorks/car geeks with technical backgrounds.

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    Re: sloted rotors

    Quote Originally Posted by guyhatesmycar
    Did you actually read what I wrote? I can scan and post pages from my textbook supporting this. I find it hard to believe that a guy who raced cars can upset centuries of chemical and metallurgical research. I've studied the subject in school; it's essential knowledge to what I do. You read one online article.
    Remember that the earth was flat once, too.

    I'd actually love if you could scan the pages and cite the source. I'd give far more credibility to a science text book if that's what it is. I don't know Carroll Smith's educational background but an engineer is a far cry from a chemist. They may both have backgrounds in math and science but they're completely different fields. I really think a chemist is the type of person you'd need to talk to, to find out if what your stating is true. And of course I encourage both of you not to just blindly believe whatever you read. Text books have been known to be wrong and sometimes the teachers using them don't know the difference, and sometimes people writing books don't alway check or backup all the facts that there publishing or are simply repeating what they've been told.

  9. #59
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    Re: sloted rotors

    Here's another pretty technical article on the formation of cementite in cast iron brake rotors:

    http://www.powerbrake.co.za/pages/tech_01_judder.htm

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    Re: sloted rotors

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin
    Here's another pretty technical article on the formation of cementite in cast iron brake rotors:
    http://www.powerbrake.co.za/pages/tech_01_judder.htm
    Of course you realize you could post all the articles you want on the subject and it wouldn't mean a thing without the source of the information being cited. The problem is of course they could just be getting all there information from the very book your talking about. I'd like to believe that everyone who publishes anything always checks there information to be sure it's correct but without citing some sort of research or doing research of there own and publishing it, it means nothing. While what these articles are saying makes sense, without knowing the science behind it, there's no way to say if it's the case or not. I'm a computer tech and I can think of several "urban legends" which a lot of technicians and users now accept as fact because the information has been around so long everyone just believes it. Keep in mind I'm not saying your wrong or that your right. I'm just saying posting links to these articles without citing reliable research or information to back it up means nothing to me. All of you can argue about the subject all you want posting various articles and what not but it all comes down to proving your information is valid.
    So stop the petty bickering and backup your claims with some proof

    I of course couldn't care either way who's right and wrong, just as long as the proper information is posted and backed up.

  11. #61

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    Re: sloted rotors

    Here are a few scans from my textbook, Technology of Machine Tools, 6th Edition.

    The first page describes the lameller arrangement of iron carbide (cementite) and pure iron (ferrite) into grain structures known as perlite. This arrangement can be seen in steel and cast iron with a microscope, it's actually fairly big. It also talks about how the carbon completely dissolves in the iron when it's heated above the decalescence point. When the metal is cooled past the decalescence point, the carbon comes back out of solution as cementite.


    Here is god: the iron carbide diagram at the top of the page. Here you can see that steel (and cast) to the right of the hypereutectoid (more carbon than the iron can absorb below recalescence point) exists as a stable mixture of Pearlite (cementite and ferrite) and pure cementite.




    Heat cycling the material will NEVER cause more cementite to form, it all already has. It's like turning up the heat in your house and expecting more furniture.

    Edit: Oh and I forgot, see the second page where it states that lower heat treating temperatures are ideal to avoid WARPING of the material. Have you ever heat treated anything? Let's just say that if its under an inch thick and you don't hold it in place, it comes out looking like a pretzel, every time. And I'm pretty sure that piece of 1090 plain carbon steel that I was spheroidizing didn't have uneven brake pad deposits anywhere on it.
    Last edited by Ichiban; 06-10-2007 at 10:24 AM.
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  12. #62
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    Re: sloted rotors

    Eh, I still think you're wrong. Here:

    http://ws.ajou.ac.kr/~powder/files/P...2011-20-06.pdf

    That's from a brake manufacturer, about 'white' cast iron (cementite) and how it forms into cementite. It happens through heating and cooling cycles, because the molecules 'rearrange' during these processes. Just like heating metal and then cooling it rapidly changes it's qualities, so does the massive cycles of heat of your rotor, along with the pad deposits.

  13. #63

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    Re: sloted rotors

    roodoo2pads or rotors involving aftermarket products or how to use them CAN NOT be held to a protocol of application that can be TAUGHT as FACT. Only opinions, shared experiences, and recommendations are usable communications for these subjects.
    That said, we need to remain open minded to others shared experiences (real life) and not try to preach something that was written by someone else and then tell people they don't know what they are talking about when they share non-fictional recollections of factual events to back it up.
    same bat time same bat place same bat channel

    This is a very interesting argument, a long standing argument in the trade. GM and other automakers say not to turn rotors, I have been to several brake clinics that also claim that rotors do not need to be machined when purchased new. Kelvin, you stress the importance of pads over that of rotating surface, using the linked references. guyhatesmycar, you hold an obvious opposition to that theory. Well.... you are both right.
    Kelvin I won't flash my creds on you, I know you will drop my clip and only let me get one round off... but here it is bang (echo) bang.. having experience in a police fleet where they beat the hell out of the brakes,as well as some other commercial areas of brake work, sometimes time and money are factors aside from the fact of ulltimate machine operations. In that aspect, yes it is necessary to turn rotors, even new ones, to get the cars repaired properly and back in service, back to the customer... quickely without returns.
    Guyhatesmycar, your reference material is right on the mark as well. But ultimately in the bottomless funding support of a profiting race team scenerio,, with time to experiment and work out details, and mechanics assigned to each area of the car, Kelvin and Carrol Smith's theories are pretty accurate as well. Both of these opinions can be utilized by entheusiists and owners as well, but even then time and money are factors, time IS money a lot of times. Daily driven cars, weekend warriors, hell all can benefit from both aspects of the discussion. Like all information and teaching materials, the retention of the information must be taken "with a grain of salt" for anyone to thoroughly understand and apply the knowledge to their own suit.

  14. #64
    2ndGenGuy
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    Re: sloted rotors

    I was told by a local brake shop that they have found that OEM rotors on a lot of brand new cars were already below spec for thickness. The owner of the shop said auto manufacturers were cheaping out of brake rotors and that they coudln't be turned. Just a tidbit I found interesting.

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    Re: sloted rotors

    I could entertain the thought that some other factor in the metallurgy of cast iron is responsible for making hard spots in brake rotors, but the application of the term "cementite" in this instance is wrong. If a solution of iron and carbon is cooled to the point it solidifies, cementite will form in a given quantity proportional to the carbon content. Once a given quantity of said solution cools, all the cementite that could or ever will be there is there. I'm going to look into the possibility that other common alloying elements can be responsible for this situation.

    I also stand by the statement that heat will physically distort metal. I have seen this with my own eyes many times.
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    Re: sloted rotors

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin
    Eh, I still think you're wrong. Here:

    http://ws.ajou.ac.kr/~powder/files/P...2011-20-06.pdf

    That's from a brake manufacturer, about 'white' cast iron (cementite) and how it forms into cementite. It happens through heating and cooling cycles, because the molecules 'rearrange' during these processes. Just like heating metal and then cooling it rapidly changes it's qualities, so does the massive cycles of heat of your rotor, along with the pad deposits.

    I just read the article you posted, and I couldn't agree more.

    "White cast irons form eutectic cementite during solidification."

    Page 50.
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    Re: sloted rotors

    Quote Originally Posted by guyhatesmycar
    It is a copper colored triangle or square? That is a carbide insert. I doubt anyone would use PCBN tooling for surfacing brakes, ever.

    no the triangles at my work are look like gold but they are dimond plated they last a fucking lot longer then the carbide w/e ones but he said if you break one of the dimond plated ones then you dont know what the fuck you are doing

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    Re: sloted rotors

    Quote Originally Posted by mike10562004
    no the triangles at my work are look like gold but they are dimond plated they last a fucking lot longer then the carbide w/e ones but he said if you break one of the dimond plated ones then you dont know what the fuck you are doing
    I use diamond round bits with no problems. Since changing to slotted rotors brakes last three to five times longer than before. Where a car would come in needing brakes every 3 months, I wont see the ones with slotted rotors for at least 9 -12 months.. BIG difference

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    Re: sloted rotors

    all I want to add is that from my personal experiance you take any metal and apply heat and it will expand. cool that heated metal and it will contract. Take that metal and unevenly run it through those cycles and it will distort. Im not sure if this is just basic laws of physics or what but Im pretty sure iron is bound to those rules of distortion.

  20. #70

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    Re: sloted rotors

    Quote Originally Posted by mike10562004
    no the triangles at my work are look like gold but they are dimond plated they last a fucking lot longer then the carbide w/e ones but he said if you break one of the dimond plated ones then you dont know what the fuck you are doing
    From what I understand, the diamond cutting tools have even poorer shock resistance than the carbide inserts, and comparable to brazed tip carbides. My book here recommends straight tungsten carbide for cutting of cast iron.
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    Re: sloted rotors

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin
    Eh, I still think you're wrong. Here:

    http://ws.ajou.ac.kr/~powder/files/P...2011-20-06.pdf

    That's from a brake manufacturer, about 'white' cast iron (cementite) and how it forms into cementite. It happens through heating and cooling cycles, because the molecules 'rearrange' during these processes. Just like heating metal and then cooling it rapidly changes it's qualities, so does the massive cycles of heat of your rotor, along with the pad deposits.

    Jeez Kelvin, you are a such a gentleman, posting information supporting my side of the argument. If you read it over again, ignoring the crap from the other website, you will have a good idea of what I've been talking about.

    Why would TRW heat cycle and stress relieve its rotors to reduce warping while in service if brake rotors don't warp? Page 88

    Some good info w/pic's on martensite and bainite, two of the iron/carbide microstructures I'd yet to mention.
    Last edited by Ichiban; 06-11-2007 at 12:50 PM.
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    Re: sloted rotors

    Quote Originally Posted by guaynabo89
    all I want to add is that from my personal experiance you take any metal and apply heat and it will expand. cool that heated metal and it will contract. Take that metal and unevenly run it through those cycles and it will distort. Im not sure if this is just basic laws of physics or what but Im pretty sure iron is bound to those rules of distortion.
    Sure. And it's basic common sense that rotors are DESIGNED to get hot. And then cool. And get hot again. And then cool. X 1000100010101010 times.

    It's also common sense that Carroll Smith knows more about cars than Dr. Scientist over there.

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    Re: sloted rotors

    Quote Originally Posted by guyhatesmycar
    From what I understand, the diamond cutting tools have even poorer shock resistance than the carbide inserts, and comparable to brazed tip carbides. My book here recommends straight tungsten carbide for cutting of cast iron.
    "the diamond cutting tools have even poorer shock resistance than the carbide inserts" end quote

    Usually they do there harder or just as hard as carbide. Plus there very expensive in relative terms so breaking one would be cost effective of a 5$ rotor turn job so most shops turn that work down.

    The harder something is the more brittle it gets just as a rule of thumb. Kinda like glass its hard but push it a little to much and its broke.

    I uses HSS tooling for turning shafts with a key way in them they handle the on /off shock of skipping over the keyway. Thats another way of explaining it.

    EDIT: these look like carbide inserts to me

    http://www.ammcoats.com/Products_Det...x?id=740245215


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    Re: sloted rotors

    I'm saying Carroll Smith's theory is wrong. I assumed you wanted to know why. People using common sense are agreeing with me, I just have the education, understanding and material to back it up. The TRW post clearly supports what I've been saying, you should read it. Do some basic online research. Carroll Smith's lemans experience will never overthrow the iron carbide model, ever.

    BTW I'm not a fucking scientist. I gained my knowledge through education, not some pain in the ass online article.

    Oldblue: I'm assuming you are saying that the diamond tooling is too fragile and expensive to use on a cheapo brake rotor job? Because thats the impression that I had. I've used carbide inserts to make an interrupted cut on 316 Stainless before and had excellent results, though I knocked the cutting speed back to about 30SFM. I've never had luck using HSS on cast brake drums, the abrasiveness destroys the tool edge within seconds, even with minimal speed and a moderate feed. (and a neutral to positive rake ground on the bit) We parted out an old giant brake lathe awhile ago and I remember it having a brazed cemented carbide toolbit installed.
    Last edited by Ichiban; 06-11-2007 at 04:23 PM.
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    Re: sloted rotors

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin
    Sure. And it's basic common sense that rotors are DESIGNED to get hot. And then cool. And get hot again. And then cool. X 1000100010101010 times.
    It's also common sense that Carroll Smith knows more about cars than Dr. Scientist over there.
    not indefinately

    plus thats where quality, composite, and casting come into play. + you get what you pay for.

    cast iron blocks warp too under repeated extreme heat cycles. evident when the deck needs resurfacing for it once again to be true for proper cylinder head sealing and bores are out of round. You trying to tell me the cementite from my brakes are gonna deposit on my block causing it to warp?

    While Im not completely disagreeing with you This is not an absolute for every single cause of pulsating brakes. From my experiences all metals wil warp and car rotors are metal.

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