sloted rotors

[2ndGenGuy]

No, actually it's not. I'm saying if I was a rotor company I'd publish articles that looked favorable. Those favorable articles may indeed be correct, but that's not for me to judge. That's all I said, I did not in fact say anything stating you were wrong or right. And stop double posting.

Edit: I reread your post and I think you misunderstood my post. My point being there not going to publish somthing that makes there product look bad. Comprende?

Welcome to my world, HostileJava.

He's going to continue to tell you that you're wrong and that you're illiterate and that Carroll Smith knows more than everybody. He's going to keep saying "ALL RUNOUT IS UNEVEN DEPOSITS WHICH CAUSE CEMENTITE FORMATIONS" despite all of the evidence that proves that he is wrong. Despite COMMON SENSE that proves that he is wrong. Despite SCIENTIFIC FUCKING PROOF that he is wrong.

And he won't debate our points, he won't ever come back and do a point-by-point analysis of our points. He'll just keep name calling and telling us that we're idiots.

And to quote the article that HE linked us to:

What causes 'Warped Rotors'?
Typically warped rotors are caused not by a failure of the rotor itself.
Warped rotors (in most instances) are caused by the brake pads being operated at temperatures outside of their specified range. When the pads get too hot the pad material actually melts and 'fuses' itself to the rotor surface and creates a 'bump' on the surface of the rotor. In most cases this is not noticeable to the naked eye. This creates an annoying vibration when the brakes are applied. The only solution to this is turning (grinding) the rotors or installing new rotors.
We do not recommend turning rotors: It removes additional metal and reduces the the thermal capacity of the discs.
The best way to combat this condition is to use GOOD QUALITY street performance brake pads which have a higher operating temperature range.
Properly 'bedding-in' the pads and discs is a must.
Tip: Our Temperature Indicating Paint Kit may be useful in determining the
correct brake pad compound(s) for your application:

It doesn't say rotors don't warp. Do you comprehend what IN MOST INSTANCES MEANS? That article also directly contradicts YOU Kelvin. It says "We do not recommend turning rotors". Again, you've proven yourself wrong, and twisted this information into mis-information. It says NOTHING about cementite. Nothing! Do you see CEMENTITE in there? Did you even read my post about pad deposits? I said YES UNEVEN PAD DEPOSITS HAPPEN but it DOES NOT CAUSE CEMENTITIE!

Again, the other article mentions NOTHING about cementite formation. It says rotors don't warp, but wear into high and low spots. The article calls is Disc Thickness Variation (DTV). Again, they say DON'T USE CHEAP ROTORS.

Replacing a rotor with excessive DTV with another new rotor will only correct the problem temporarily, because eventually the associated LRO with the new rotor will lead to DTV over a period of time, and the problem repeats itself all over again. Machining a rotor with excessive DTV on a bench lathe will only temporarily correct the problem because the rotor is being machined true to the bench lathes spindle and not the spindle on the car, plus the spindle on the bench lathe has its own runout.

Cementite? No mention of it. A good theory? Yes I think so. It makes WAY more sense than your theory of Cementite. Perhaps I'll look into it more, but DTV is mostly the same theory and principles as rotor warpage. They even say that DTV will come BACK with BRAND NEW ROTORS! NOT UNEVEN PAD DEPOSITS. Read your own articles.

Kelvin, do you know why you're getting pissed off? Because your points are being shot down 1 by 1. Instead of coming back point by point (like a grown man) you come back like a little kid and accuse US of not reading anything. You're the one who didn't read! The articles YOU posted proved you wrong and you've proven yourself wrong.

I haven't made it for 2 years on this forum by spreading BS and being a closed-minded person and not reading and listening to what people have to say. That tends to piss people off and get you banned.

[Kelvin]

Advertising? For what? Nothing I've posted has anything to do with specific products. It's all general information, applicable to parts from any company.

[2ndGenGuy]

Sure thing Bill Nye. You obviously know more than Carroll Smith, and brake companies. I forgot.

Way to back yourself up with facts. BTW, those brake companies proved YOU wrong and made no mention of cementite.

[Kelvin]

Fuck you. All you've done is attack me, and I've had enough of it. Get off your god damn high horse. I know what I'm talking about. Bill Nye doesn't. You've proven that you're unable to read even SIMPLE examples, and confuse 'crappy' with 'expensive'. You refuse to acknowledge the information I've presented, and label it as advertising, even though it has nothing to do with a specific product. HIGH TEMPERATURE PADS will not cause uneven pad deposits, because they are designed to work up to extremely high temperatures, thus they do not unevenly transfer pad material until really high temps. This idea is far too complex for your feeble brain to figure out, and you STILL continue to harass me, call me names, and attempt to discredit the information I've presented, without realizing that you're making yourself look like a fool. Fucking BRAKE ROTOR COMPANIES explain that high temperature pads will help prevent uneven pad deposits, and STILL you dispute it.

Now it's time for me to call you a name:

You sir, are a complete fucking idiot.

[Kelvin]

Way to back yourself up with facts. BTW, those brake companies proved YOU wrong and made no mention of cementite.

Yep. This is all bullshit. You know more than them:

More articles from BRAKE ROTOR COMPANIES that claim rotors never warp:
http://www.raceshopper.com/tech.shtml#warped_rotors

"Warped rotors (in most instances) are caused by the brake pads being operated at temperatures outside of their specified range. When the pads get too hot the pad material actually melts and 'fuses' itself to the rotor surface and creates a 'bump' on the surface of the rotor. In most cases this is not noticeable to the naked eye. This creates an annoying vibration when the brakes are applied"

This is exactly what I said above. Shitty pads with a low maximum temperature= uneven pad deposits. Yet still, certain people argue and claim that high temperature pads will work exactly the same as shitty organic pads. Why? Who knows. Some people buy tornado fuel savers.
Here's another BRAKE MANUFACTURER that claims that rotors never warp, and I'm guessing they know more about rotors than certain so called 'experts' on this forum.

http://www.performanceoiltechnology....ingsystems.htm

"The problem with this diagnosis and repair procedure is that first of all is that brake rotors do not warp. The second problem is that replacing a brake rotor with a new brake rotor or machining the rotor on a bench lathe will only fix the problem temporary. The problem will almost always re-occur after a period of time, thus necessitating further repairs. Brake rotor disc thickness variation or excessive lateral runout, as well as drums that are out of round can cause vibrations and pulsations in the brake pedal and/or steering wheel. Brake lining material transfer onto the rotor can also have an effect on this as well. "
But go ahead. Keep arguing. You guys are obviously more experienced and more knowledgeable than brake companies, or Carroll Smith.

[Kelvin]

More brake companies mentioning cementite, and proving 2ndgenguy wrong:

http://www.powerbrake.co.za/download..._01_judder.pdf

"Even the best quality discs money could buy would have developed the same brake judder. Here’s why.... As explained above, the disc was continually coming into contact with the pads at the point of maximum run-out first. If abrasive pads were being used this area of the disc would wear down quicker than the rest of the disc surface causing DTV, which is felt as an intrusive judder. If adhesive pads were being run then the pads would have deposited more material on the initial contact point (the area of max. run-out) than on the rest of the disc surface. Again this leads to DTV and brake judder.

"It gets worse! Once you have the development of DTV the surface of the disc will begin to heat unevenly. The high spots will get extremely hot compared to the rest of the disc. When the temperature around these high spots reaches 650 – 700°C. the cast iron in that area will change structurally and transform into a material called Cementite. Cementite is far harder than the cast iron of the unaffected parts of the disc and will therefore wear considerably less as the disc wears down with use.
Cementite also has very poor heat sink properties and will therefore continue to run extremely hot resulting in the rapid spread of the Cementite formation deeper and deeper into the disc. As a result the DTV will get progressively worse with time until it becomes literally unbearable to use the brakes. Depending on the pads used and the driving style of the vehicle owner this process could take 1000 – 6000 kilometers to develop and, NO, the initial run-out will not necessarily be felt by the driver. Hence the confusion and clinging to the concept of brake discs “warping”

[Ichiban]

Cementite doesn't do that. Go buy a tornado. And some Amsoil.

"Cementite formations are normally visible as blue/black areas
on the disc surface."

Nope, That is iron oxidizing. Remember the tempering colors I was talking about? Iron forms different oxides at different temps. It has nothing to do with carbon or cementite. The website is wrong.

[Kelvin]

I think you should apply to those brake companies. You're obviously more intelligent than everybody at those companies combined.

So the question is... do you trust a self proclaimed metal expert? Or brake companies and Carroll Smith? Hrm.....

[Ls1-Inside]

Cementite doesn't do that. Go buy a tornado.

I dont know what Kelvin said - but I'm sure it's wrong again.

LOL

I just read a bunch about it from various sites.

None of them are actually going out and claiming rotors never warp. They're saying Vibrations are USUALLY not from warped rotors, and are USUALLY from unevenly deposited pad material.

Rotors still occasionally warp. Period, the end.

A PADS operating temperature has nothing to do with unevenly deposited material. ANY pad operating over it's designed temperature is going to deposit it's material to the rotor. This doesn't necessarily mean an uneven deposit. Coming to a stop on a red hot rotor will however, transfer a bump... Even high quality pads will transfer this material if you come to a stop on an over heated pad. Even so - that bump is not cementite... That Bump transfer is the Operator's fault, not the pads...


I doubt Kelvin will ever accept things like Rotors occasionally warp. We're all believers of the vibrations primarily coming from unevenly distributed pad material... we all believe that. We all don't believe that the Unevenly Distributed pad material magically transforms into cementite during daily driving conditions. We all don't believe that Brake rotors are somehow immune to warping through some miracle of god. We all don't believe that Carol Smith intended his "Experience" with rotors to actually dictate the metallurgy principals that all metals are bound to!

I wonder how long Kelvin this thread will go before its locked.

-Dan

[guaynabo89]

They can if they have uneven pad deposits, as the 'high spots' of pad material will lightly scrape your pad with every revolution, gradually building more and more heat. Your rotors will not be 'glowing orange', but small, localized areas will be heating up MUCH more than everything else. Don't believe me? Rent on of those IR thermometers, and shoot it at different parts of your rotor. They'll read different temperatures. Now imagine a high spot that hits your pads more than eveyrhting else else does. It will be the hottest.

yeah but the air flowing through the rotors would still keep the rotor from reaching that 700+ celcius dont you think!

I'm guessing the people who belive in warped rotors are the same people who believe that god controls everything, like the wizard of oz.

God doesnt control everything, he just gave you life and lets you choose your way!

[Ichiban]

I just googled "cementite in brake rotors"

Not only did I find almost all of kelvins references, but I found people claiming that cementite comes out of the brake pads!!! as well as 2 people on forums disputing cementite "formation" due to it already being there, having formed as the pour solidified.

[HostileJava]

OK then.