1986 accord carb, float, choke problem?

[backlash]

I am currently driving a 1986 honda accord 2bl carburated with nearly 300k on the odometer. The car has had its problems like going through fuel pumps yearly but a few weeks ago after a ~90 mile round trip I noticed the car did not feel like it was doing what it was supposed to do. And soon after it began having a major problem.

The car surges or bolts when the accelerator is pushed or if its warmer and the pedal is pushed the RPMs will just start to drop, until I let off or it dies. Releasing the pedal lets it idle fine. Car starts fine, idles good, ran like a top otherwise.

If i pump the gas it will surge up to speed, and when I get to about 4grand on the RPMs it will haul ass with no problems at all no surging etc, but then when i shift it will bog down and the RPMs will drop, unless i pump the gas, and then get it back to about 4 grand.

It seems like when i am turning whether left but especially right, the problem improves for a short time until i shift, but this does not always hold true.

After driving it this way at high way speeds and teh car is at full operating temp (not going into fifth because it will bog down too much without excessive pumping) sometimes it will improve and i can drive it normally but if i push the pedal just to much and shift it without slowly letting the clutch out it will start the problem again, this especially works well when i come to a stop in traffic or a stop light and sit for a minute, this usually heats up the temp a little and allows me to drive it normally until i either give it too much gas or release the clutch too quickly.

I have changed both fuel filters.

Recently I have been playing with the choke, it seems like the choke heater coil works fine (but only opens the choke), i removed it and its clean, the linkage as far as i could see is free to move, i lubricated it and cleaned it etc.

One thing i noticed and as mentioned in my chiltons manual it states that depressing the accelerator completely and slowly releasing it should set the choke plate (the butterfly on top) when below 82 degrees it should close completely, when above to about an 1/8", but the accelerator has absolutely no effect at all on the choke plate.

I am thinking it is the linkage but i cant see under the choke if it is connected on the bottom someplace else. (like to the throttle cable plate or whatever, or if there is a spring missing etc)

The vacumn opener seems to work good, no blockage in the ports, so does the fast idle unloader.
There is no vacumn leaks I see or hear.
The fuel pump was recently replaced but i wouldnt rule it out (its a MASTER from autozone), but everything i see points to the choke because if i choke it by pushing my finger on the butterfly (holding it semi-closed) while giving it gas on the throttle cable it works like it is supposed to, no bogging down.

There is definetely a problem with the choke, im guessing, but I havent checked into fuel volume, and that pre-heater hose that connects to the exhaust and the air intake I removed seeing as it was not in the best shape anyway. (if i remember correctly this was after the fact or problem occurred, besides its the summer, so carburetor icing shouldnt be a problem) and I have no idea where the hell or what a thermovalve looks like.

I have used some spray cleaner on the surface of the carb and linkages, I have even put a can of b-12 in the gas tank. But nothing I do seems to work. If im not mistaken my father had this problem before with it jerking heavily, much worse than it is now. I don’t suppose this could be fuel pulsation by the baffle? Maybe the float bowl, I havent checked the float level?

Something also to add is that I keep thinking about the choke, and the way im thinking is that it has nothing to do with it. Just like a weed eater when its warmed up, there is no use for the choke, only when its cold, and im assuming the concept is the same on my car and is the reason for the choke coil only opening the choke.

So the problem lies in something else, as if its not getting enough gas.

I have been reading the forums here, I havent read everything or searched my problem but this is just to get my foot in the door.

I have not taken off the top hat and sprayed the bowl and ports clean, and have not checked to see if the venturi’s are loose.

I’m sure there are various other things I could do to find out what the problem is but that’s the extent I know and would greatly appreciate any insightful help, i have to drive this car daily (college, work, errands) so i'm kind of begging for help.

[A20A1]

Thermo valves are at the rear of the intake manifold on the brake master cylinder side.
They are plastic, extremely fragile and have maybe 2 to 3 vacuum ports on them.

If you want, drive the car, warm it up and prop the choke open fully to take it out of the equation, then go for a drive again.

Checking the venturies are pretty easy, it's probably better to do with the top hat off, but you can leave it on if you want to. If the venturies are loose then thats part of a fuel deliverly problem right there.

I assume you're removed the air box before.

[backlash]

thanks for the reply a20a1. after being referred to this site by a member of hondswap i read about those venturis and i found that in my case the brass screw for the main venturi was completely missing! so i took the screw out of the other and put it in the main one. this fixed the problem. the carb does still need some adjusting but i'll be back if i need more help. thanks for the great site!

[poor_red_neck]

backlash...

can you post more details to what exactly fixed your problem?

Found this searching for my problem. Exactly as you described.

Here's my post I've made on several other car forums, none of which have led any solutions other than "have it rebuilt" Yeah... I know better than to mess with this carb. Professional quote is $389 bucks... Yeah, sorry... the car isn't even worth that much.

1989 Honda Accord LX 2.0 2 barrel carb.

Symptoms just started today.

It seems like its either completely losing fuel, or running extremely rich.

Under sub 4000 RPMs and under 95% throttle, there is extreme hesitation. If I floor it, it starts to try to catch up... once it gets revved up, it will accelerate like normal.

Not a spark issue. Plugs are new, dist. cap and rotor are new. If it was an ignition issue, it should get worse as the RPMs increase.

Also, when the motor is not under load (neutral) It will rev almost normall, with a noticeable hesitation at around 3200 RPM... I'm assuming this is when the secondary jets kick in, I don't know... I don't know shit about carbs. Sometimes if I floor it in neutral to get it to rev, it almost cuts out. I can pump the throttle to get it above 4K then it just takes off and revs to redline with no problem

Any ideas?

Describes your exact problem down to a T.


Here's the thing though. I think I did this...

Don't ask me why, I'm not exactly sure what was going on with me.

The black cannister behind the driver's side headlight... I'm assuming now its a vacuum chamber to hold vacuum. Well, I thought it was the charcoal cannister for evap. Well, I was checking that blue one way valve, as by mouth pressure it seemed to be stuck from both directions. I thought I had dis connected the other end of the hose from the metal vacuum lines, but I guess I didn't. I took an air hose and shot about 95 psi through it. Cleared the valve right up, works fine now... but while air was going through, it caused the car to buck at idle. I only did this for a few seconds thinking I was clearing that line out. The next drove I took, it started this.

Now I don't know exactly where that line goes... I tried to trace it with the air box off, but got lost in that rat's nest. It may be pure coincidence it may not, but this is the only variable. The car is daily driven, so I wouldn't think the float would just get stuck for no reason. The fuel filters are fine (brand new) and I don't think it's the fuel pump, as there is no hesitation in upper RPMs at full WOT. I would think a bad pump would cause it to severely lean out at WOT high RPM.

If I gun the throttle and get it above 4K and bring it all the way to 6K RPM, then shift I can sometimes "jimmy" the throttle down in 4th gear of 5th gear at highway speeds and it will hold speed fine. If for even a slight second I let go of the throttle and then try to ease into it, it loses all power unless I floor it and get the RPMs to climb back up again.

[poor_red_neck]

Also, is this the correct gasket for the upper part of the carb if I do need to check the float?

I really don't want to remove the whole carb... a few have told me I should be able to remove the "top hat" without removing the whole carb...

Advance Auto Parts# 60973

[2oodoor]

Welcome to the forum

First off forget anything you ever might have known about carbs when you are dealing with this one.
There are so many outside controls for these carbs, symptoms usually do not apply to typical diagnostic reasoning.

I can only suggest you check out the factory manual available free here, and then look under the carb section for various solutions.
First off a vaccuum removal procedure helps eliminate a lot, and pay close attention to the fast idle pulloff, it is separate from the choke pulloff.... You can inadvertently maladjust the the carb if these things are not in there correct position when you adjust.. Also the secondary can get stuck open a little and throw off your idle mix. A good cleaning with berrymans carb spray helps to eliminate some things.
I lucked up and found a weber for mine, and completely changed the personality of the car to the good, also easier to fiddle with.

[poor_red_neck]

I've considered a vacuum removal, but the only thing that has concerned me is economy. I was getting roughly 32mpg highway and don't want to lose that.
Also, anything I do to this car must be done in 2 days or less, as this is my daily driver and I drive 55 miles to work and 55 back.

I've been doing some research all night on vacuum removal.... I'd probably go all the way to "stage 4" with the black box and everything... just keeping the choke and thermowax/fast idle cold start, as it can get pretty cold around here in the winter.

I was focusing on backlash's post seeing as how he has the exact same symptoms and I thought the symptoms were a little weird myself.

I agree roodoo, this is the absolute worst designed carb I've every seen in my life. If the geo could get away with emissions with their carbed motors... why the hell does honda have to have all this crap?

Oh well, have to work with what you can get I suppose.

[poor_red_neck]

Just an update to try to further diagnose the problem.

I did not remove the tophat, as I don't have an extra gasket. Here's what I did and noticed.
Now keep in mind, I do not know how a carb works in full detail. I know EFI, so I know the basics, but carbs I'm learning.

So far I have disconnected the fuel hose, and ran the motor until the bowl is empty. I then squirted all "3" jets that I know of with carb cleaner, then sprayed a fairly large amount into the bowl vents. Pretty much filled it up with carb cleaner. Pumped the throttle a few times, then let it set for about 5 minutes. Cranked the motor, it ran off the ether for a little bit, then let it die. Repeated that one more time, on the second time, I was a bit heavier on the throttle hoping to get some of that carb cleaner on the jets. I re-connected the fuel hose and filled the bowl back up and the symptoms are still there.


#1. When I play with the throttle, small amounts of throttle movement will cause some fuel to squirt out of here. Revs bounce around 750-1800. If I move the throttle a little bit more, it begins to hesitate and revs won't climb and fuel no longer comes out of this hole. I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing this hole has to do with quicker throttle response? Not a "primary" source of fuel. Possibly the idle supply of fuel.

#2. I'm assuming this is the primary barrel, as this throttle plate opens long before the larger one does. On both barrles, the booster venturi moves. The smaller one more than the larger one. When I say move, I mean it rotates on its axes when the motor vibrates under higher RPM. Also, fuel does not spray out of the jet, it just "pours" out. I can't really tell if it is a sparatic delivery of fuel or not.

#3. Fuel does not some out of this hole unless I jam the throttle. I'm assuming this is the secondary. Again, fuel does not "spray" out like I thought it should, it just pours out. This booster venturi also moves somewhat by finger movement, as well as under higher RPM vibrations.

I have no way at the moment to get video of exactly what is happening as far as the fuel delivery in relation to the throttle movement.

Does this information help at all?

[crucial]

I had the same exact problem and found out it was due the the venturis. There should be no play in them. When i found the problem the set screw form the main (smaller) was missing and the secondary was about to fall out, so i use the one from the secondary on the main till i got some new ones the next day. Well while driving to get the new ones the main had fallen out and the car ran like crap again.I used some blue lock tight on them and haven't had a problem since.

[poor_red_neck]

Interesting.

Well, after heavy cleaning, the jets do now spray fuel normally. They were definitely dirty but not the cause of the problem.

I screwed up today. Heh, I'm quite embarrassed about this actually. I bought a can of "sea foam" and poured a little into one of the bowl vents and filled it up with sea foam, then ran the motor and pumped the gas to try and get some flowing through both jets. Well, I was starting to get really pissed and aggravated with this whole situation so I proceeded to dump the entire contents of the seafoam into both chambers of the carb. Yeah, a whole freaking pint of the stuff. It filled the carb up to the brim, the secondary barrel kept it in there alot longer than the primary. Let it sit for a few minutes. Connected the fuel back and let the bowl fill up. Welllll.... went to crank it and no crank.

JESUS FUCKING TAP DANCING CHRIST I just hydro-locked the motor with seafoam!!!!!

Thank GOD I have a manual. I put it in 4th gear and pushed the car and got it to come out. Man I thought I was going to crack the head or something, It was tuff to get it out. It cranked shortly after and made quite an impressive smoke storm.

Lesson learned:
Don't take out your frustrations on your car, it will only make you more pissed. Just STFU and get another beer






Crucial:

So when I take the tophad off the carb, I should see some screws for the venturis? So was one of your screws just sitting in the bowl of the carb? I mean if they come out, they really don't have anywhere to go. You just got new ones and loc-tited them in there?

What is the reasoning that the venturis being loose will cause the problem? If they move it shuts off delivery of fuel? This would make sense I guess... if I jimmy the throttle sometimes while driving it will drive normally. I'm assuming the venturi is just vibrating itself and if it lines up for a second while I push the throttle it just works. Sounds confusing, hard to write what I'm picturing going on in my head.

What part is it exactly that you had to replace, and if I remove the top-hat, is there alot of vacuum hose removal that had to happen? Or do I have to remove the whole carb?


Thanks for the help so far guys,
This site is very rich in alot of good information. A HELLUVA lot better than the guys at hondatech.


I'm going to ask an un-related question that I've searched for and cannot find the answer to and it wasn't really worth of creating a new thread.

On the dash under the steering wheel, there is a black knob that pulls out about 5". What the hell is this thing for? The car has an automatic choke, and it does not stay locked in any position so I don't think it has anything to do with the air vents. The car is an 89 LX 4 door with power locks and windows and a/c.

[crucial]

i only had to remove the top hat to replace the venturis. The set screws are on the side of the carb opposite from fuel line. You will have to remove the choke though. And if you plan on doing the vacuum removal then this would be a good time to start it.

Also this will help greatly https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48568

Remember to alway work on your car with a clear head. If you start getting angry stop and relax, you'll accomplish more faster!

[poor_red_neck]

Awesome, I'll read that thread tomorrow, 1:30am is not clear headed

I just noticed that the picture I had was under a password protected site.. OOPS!

Check a few posts up, that should make the numbered bullets I put earlier a little easier

Just an update to try to further diagnose the problem.

I did not remove the tophat, as I don't have an extra gasket. Here's what I did and noticed.
Now keep in mind, I do not know how a carb works in full detail. I know EFI, so I know the basics, but carbs I'm learning.

So far I have disconnected the fuel hose, and ran the motor until the bowl is empty. I then squirted all "3" jets that I know of with carb cleaner, then sprayed a fairly large amount into the bowl vents. Pretty much filled it up with carb cleaner. Pumped the throttle a few times, then let it set for about 5 minutes. Cranked the motor, it ran off the ether for a little bit, then let it die. Repeated that one more time, on the second time, I was a bit heavier on the throttle hoping to get some of that carb cleaner on the jets. I re-connected the fuel hose and filled the bowl back up and the symptoms are still there.


#1. When I play with the throttle, small amounts of throttle movement will cause some fuel to squirt out of here. Revs bounce around 750-1800. If I move the throttle a little bit more, it begins to hesitate and revs won't climb and fuel no longer comes out of this hole. I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing this hole has to do with quicker throttle response? Not a "primary" source of fuel. Possibly the idle supply of fuel.

#2. I'm assuming this is the primary barrel, as this throttle plate opens long before the larger one does. On both barrles, the booster venturi moves. The smaller one more than the larger one. When I say move, I mean it rotates on its axes when the motor vibrates under higher RPM. Also, fuel does not spray out of the jet, it just "pours" out. I can't really tell if it is a sparatic delivery of fuel or not.

#3. Fuel does not some out of this hole unless I jam the throttle. I'm assuming this is the secondary. Again, fuel does not "spray" out like I thought it should, it just pours out. This booster venturi also moves somewhat by finger movement, as well as under higher RPM vibrations.

I have no way at the moment to get video of exactly what is happening as far as the fuel delivery in relation to the throttle movement.

Does this information help at all?

[2oodoor]

wow, yep these carbs will drive you nuts, thank goodness for the great information compiled by member- A20A1
You probably shouldnt have filled the carb up with cleaner as it could dry out your accel pump diaphragm. I wont comment on the rest of your escapade
I removed the entire choke system,shoke thermo, fast idle servo, everything and wired the choke blade open... had no problems at all after that. Pump the gas twice three times it always fired right up without a choke. Your booster venturi definately sounds like it is loose, These carbs are really not that bad, it is just the controls they put on them to make the car run perfectly smooth under all conditions, which ironically did not work out too well with age. Doing the vac removals usually always improved mileage and performance.

[2oodoor]

oh yea.... the secret knob you mention, is the tilt column.. pull up or push down on the whole steering column when you release the lock.

[crucial]

So did it fix the problem?

[poor_red_neck]

I haven't had time to mess with it. Crazy work schedule this week.

Waiting until I have 2 days off in a row. I'm going to do a "stage 4" vacuum removal but leave the air jet controller as I don't see a benefit to taking it off. I'm sure I could do it all in a few hours, but I want to have an extra day of cushion incase I need to buy a part or something happens. I'm not too happy with having to drill out those rivets for the choke.

Do you guys think Ill need a choke in north carolina? I mean our winters usually never get colder than 20 degrees. We sometimes have some lows in the teens, but not colder than that.

If it runs like crap for a few minutes before it gets warmed up... that's fine. I could care less about how "smooth" the car is, know what I mean? As long as it won't take 10 freakin' minutes to start. I'm guessing I could just pump the gas a few times to squirt some fuel in and she'll start. As long as it will, the choke is staying off.

[2oodoor]

your winters about the same as mine, 20 degrees usually the worst mornings
I never drilled out the rivets, I took the screws out , removed the whole shee bang. Used a wire to tie the choke butterfly open via the linkage on the outside of the carb. It always started up in the same sequence really that I do now with the weber.. pump it about three times, hit the starter, repeat with two pumps and hit the starter she fires up. You will have to stay with it for a minute then you can go back inside till the heater starts.
Looks like you have to remove all of that anyway to get to the screws that tighten the boosters. They are on the outside throttle side of the carb but underneath the choke housing.

[crucial]

Yeah i removed the 2 screws that were accessible and taped on it till it broke of..