4g distributor adapter for obd-1 conversion

[LX-incredible]

Alright, alright. I'm a slacker. Guilty as charged. As Morpheus said, time is always against us.


So I looked at the Mastercam files you sent me Angus, and while they are pretty much correct there wasn't quite enough information to describe how to make the parts, mostly in terms of stock setup, but also the coolant port didn't look quite right; and the file for the key only covered milling the tabs, not how to make the entire part. So I went and created CAD models for both parts in order to have a complete representation instead of just one persons interpretation of how to cut out the parts. This way you could send the files to any machine shop, regardless of what software they use, and they could make them. The native files are Solidworks format but I also saved them as IGES files that any machine shop can handle. I'll email these to you shortly.

Now about the coolant port; I reshaped it for a couple reasons. One was to make it so that the stock D shaped thermostat housing gasket would fit better. The other reason was because the angled hole was actually cutting into the groove for the seal. While it would probably work ok that way it just didn't seem right. So I moved the flat surface over just a little to clear the groove. It makes the port slightly smaller but the cross sectional area is still much larger than the sum of the cross sectional areas of all the outlet ports on the thermostat housing. Which is the long way of saying it's plenty big enough.

Unfortunately, even with the reshaped port it's still going to be tricky to machine because of the way the hole is angled and how a typical 3 axis mill works. There are multiple ways to do it but the setup is not trivial. So I left it generally the way was and we'll have to see how it works.

I sent both models to my machinist friend to see what he would charge for these parts. Full price I'm certain will be quite expensive, but I've helped him out in the past so we'll see what we can work out. I also want to see if he has any suggestions for easier ways to make the coolant port.

The first shot at these would probably be done with whatever scrap is laying around just to check for fit, since I reverse engineered these from the mastercam files and also the dimensions posted earlier on in the thread.

Oh, and I almost forgot, there was another thing I was wondering about. I thought the countersinks for the mounting holes seemed a little shallow. The 3 smaller ones were at 0.25" and the 2 larger ones were at 0.29". I didn't change them but I thought I would at least mention it.


Here are some pictures of the solid models:









C|

Nice work man, thanks for looking at them! That doesn't susprise me that they were lacking. It would've sucked to run another paperweight. Whatever he did for the coolant port, it looks like he had a hell of a time with it. Doesn't even come near to the planned shape size and angle.
The countersinks seemed fine on the plate he sent me but I'll double check.

[LX-incredible]

Right. If I were doing the machining I would want the IGES files too. And yeah, the outside shape is mostly cosmetic. I'll go ahead and round the sharp corners though, just because it's easy and I can.

And Guy', if you PM me your email address I'll send you the IGES files. I certainly don't think Angus would mind. When my friend gets back to me I'll post up his quote and Angus can decide what he wants to do. And If you can do it cheaper that's cool.

C|

Not at all, thanks guys.

[cygnus x-1]

I'll be going up to the shop today so I'll get some numbers for the job.

About making paperweights, that's why you always make the first one from crap laying around. And for the coolant port, I think we would try that setup first to see how doable it is. I'm thinking it will probably need a really long 1/4" endmill in order to clear the tool holder, and I don't know if he has one long enough. We'll see.

The countersinks may be fine, and even if they aren't they're easy to adjust.

I did send to the files to GuyHMC as well. Any luck GuyHMC?

C|

[EricW]

I just noticed the hole that will be threaded to hold down the distributor touches the notch for the D shaped O-ring on the top solid model. Is this something that needs to be addressed?

[1ajs]

are these models done in inventor?? god dam i miss that program

[1ajs]

Nice work man, thanks for looking at them! That doesn't susprise me that they were lacking. It would've sucked to run another paperweight. Whatever he did for the coolant port, it looks like he had a hell of a time with it. Doesn't even come near to the planned shape size and angle.
The countersinks seemed fine on the plate he sent me but I'll double check.

to make that port one would need 3 work planes and 1 sketch on each plane then u use the 3 planes as a path for the extrunde

but to make the port in the real world one would have to make a cast mold then machene the part

[LX-incredible]

I just noticed the hole that will be threaded to hold down the distributor touches the notch for the D shaped O-ring on the top solid model. Is this something that needs to be addressed?

My plan for that one was to not drill all the way through. It would probably make it a bitch to tap though.

[cygnus x-1]

I noticed the overlap of the one threaded hole with the D-ring groove before, and I didn't think it would be an issue. However after looking at it again, it's a little too close for comfort. So I think it's best to stop short of that groove, and the model has been adjusted as such.

The models were done in Solidworks. I know of Inventor but have never used it. In Solidworks the coolant port is done with something called a "loft cut". You sketch the end shapes on the front and back planes and it extrudes a cut from one to the other. The end shapes don't have to be the same either, so you can transition from one shape to another, like if you wanted to go from a round hole to a square hole. Very cool stuff.

To make the coolant port in real life you can just setup the plate on an angle and cut down through it. This is why I put radiuses on the inside of the port.


I ended up not going to the shop yesterday but I got some numbers anyway.

Adapter Plate:
$530 Qty = 1
$1350 Qty = 5

Distributor Key:
$240 Qty = 1
$510 Qty = 5

So for one set of parts the total is $770. For 5 sets of parts the total is $1860, which works out to $372 per set. Obviously 5 sets would be the way to go if possible. I know this may sound expensive to some but machine work is expensive. I don't know what my friends profit margin is on this but I'm certain it isn't that much. And just so everyone knows, I'm making exactly $0 on this. I just think it's a cool project and I want to see it succeed. Also, if this ends up happening I will make sure we end up with good parts and not paperweights. I would probably print out some 1:1 scale drawings to use as templates and go test fit them at the junkyard.


So that's where we stand. One last note, if there are any other adjustments to make, or if there's anything else that would be cool to include on the adapter plate, now would be the time to get it in.

C|

[Ichiban]

AAUGH!.....

Same old story here, I'm working 12's this week and not even at the shop. I'm going to try to get the files up to Dave and see if he can have a look at them, but without any equipment to mock or measure off of we're pretty much in the dark.

Some thoughts:

D-ring groove- Is there a particular o-ring designed to fit into that groove? If so, we should get the number and pitch diameter of it so that I can tell Dave, and he can dimension the groove to fit a stock size ring. If no particular ring is selected, we can choose one based on availability, and limiting dimensions.

Threaded holes/ interference with D-ring groove- We usually tap holes on a manual milling machine or drill press with a clutch type tapping attachment. Tapping a blind hole is usually no problem.

Outside profile- Can we waterjet this? Apparently a place down the road from us, called Laserman cuts, is super cheap. Especially cheap if you send IGES files.

Coolant port again- We may revise this, and likely use a .5 ballnose endmill.

Prototype- I'll most likely have the first one made out of 1020 mild steel, and send it out to one of you guys for test fitting and modifications before fucking up expensive stuff.

Anyways, I'm just a manual machinist, and sometimes run a particular CNC lathe. It sucks that I've no experience with MC or Solidworks (which Dave has as well) or I'd do this stuff myself. Please have patience

[LX-incredible]

I noticed the overlap of the one threaded hole with the D-ring groove before, and I didn't think it would be an issue. However after looking at it again, it's a little too close for comfort. So I think it's best to stop short of that groove, and the model has been adjusted as such.

The models were done in Solidworks. I know of Inventor but have never used it. In Solidworks the coolant port is done with something called a "loft cut". You sketch the end shapes on the front and back planes and it extrudes a cut from one to the other. The end shapes don't have to be the same either, so you can transition from one shape to another, like if you wanted to go from a round hole to a square hole. Very cool stuff.

To make the coolant port in real life you can just setup the plate on an angle and cut down through it. This is why I put radiuses on the inside of the port.


I ended up not going to the shop yesterday but I got some numbers anyway.

Adapter Plate:
$530 Qty = 1
$1350 Qty = 5

Distributor Key:
$240 Qty = 1
$510 Qty = 5

So for one set of parts the total is $770. For 5 sets of parts the total is $1860, which works out to $372 per set. Obviously 5 sets would be the way to go if possible. I know this may sound expensive to some but machine work is expensive. I don't know what my friends profit margin is on this but I'm certain it isn't that much. And just so everyone knows, I'm making exactly $0 on this. I just think it's a cool project and I want to see it succeed. Also, if this ends up happening I will make sure we end up with good parts and not paperweights. I would probably print out some 1:1 scale drawings to use as templates and go test fit them at the junkyard.


So that's where we stand. One last note, if there are any other adjustments to make, or if there's anything else that would be cool to include on the adapter plate, now would be the time to get it in.

C|

Damn $770? There would be a problem getting 5 on here to commit with a tested product, yet alone the first run... $372 seems pretty reasonable though. I would probably get two at that price, but they would need to be guaranteed to work. $770 though... for that you could get a pretty decent b swap, but where'd be the fun? Thanks again for your effort in this Chris.

AAUGH!.....

Same old story here, I'm working 12's this week and not even at the shop. I'm going to try to get the files up to Dave and see if he can have a look at them, but without any equipment to mock or measure off of we're pretty much in the dark.

Some thoughts:

D-ring groove- Is there a particular o-ring designed to fit into that groove? If so, we should get the number and pitch diameter of it so that I can tell Dave, and he can dimension the groove to fit a stock size ring. If no particular ring is selected, we can choose one based on availability, and limiting dimensions.

Threaded holes/ interference with D-ring groove- We usually tap holes on a manual milling machine or drill press with a clutch type tapping attachment. Tapping a blind hole is usually no problem.

Outside profile- Can we waterjet this? Apparently a place down the road from us, called Laserman cuts, is super cheap. Especially cheap if you send IGES files.

Coolant port again- We may revise this, and likely use a .5 ballnose endmill.

Prototype- I'll most likely have the first one made out of 1020 mild steel, and send it out to one of you guys for test fitting and modifications before fucking up expensive stuff.

Anyways, I'm just a manual machinist, and sometimes run a particular CNC lathe. It sucks that I've no experience with MC or Solidworks (which Dave has as well) or I'd do this stuff myself. Please have patience

I was planning to use regular viton or whatever o-rings for the D-ring (specs are listed earlier in this thread). The o-ring slot for the key hole should be the width as the D-ring (specs also listed).
It would be nice if it can be blind tapped, that's the only way I see that would eliminate any issues with the coolant port. There is no real way to get the distributor to mount in its designed position without putting that hole there.
I'm unfamiliar with waterjetting. I assume it's just a rougher cut? No problem with that on my end.
Couldn't care what the prototype is made of or what it looks like, whatever's cheaper. Thanks Mike.

[ZackieDarko]

you should have something engraved on there to signify that these are the inital run pieces or say PROTOTYPE on it...make it look all fancy

[cygnus x-1]

For the D-ring I was using the stock thermostat housing seal as a reference. It's normally stocked at Autozone (Felpro 35507, $1.99) and probably most other parts stores as well. What I should probably do is actually measure all the dimensions in the seal groove on an actual thermostat housing and copy those. I have a spare housing sitting here but it has an old seal still in it and I didn't bother to remove it. The model should be pretty close but I could check it further.

The O-ring groove I just copied. It would be nice to find an off the shelf part to use. Maybe even something that's already used somewhere else on the car.

Blind tapping holes is no big deal. This particular one will likely have to be done with a bottoming tap to get enough threads, but that's not a problem.

Waterjetting is not a bad idea. I imagine the through holes could also be cut as well. That just leaves the seal grooves, countersinks, and coolant port.

I figured the $770 cost for one would be too high. Unfortunately the first one is always the most expensive because of the programming time required. I can ask about getting the cost down, like maybe getting only 3 made for the 5x price. He might be willing to do that. There may also be some value in refining the design to reduce machining cost; like making the coolant port simpler.

So GHMC, when you say revise the coolant port, what are you thinking?

C|

[EricW]

I could buy two depending on the price, if it will help reduce the overall cost.

[bodyarmour]

hey guys great to see this project comming along...just a question, are you planning on releasing the design files for this...i live in australia and am planning on the obd1 conversion over the next 6 months..ill be right with making a bracket for the dissy but am definately interested in milling up a cam key to save some time...the dollar has gone to shit lately so the expense of shipping an item is through the roof which sucks...i know the focus is on the main plate but has the cam key design been tested?

[EricW]

hey guys great to see this project comming along...just a question, are you planning on releasing the design files for this...i live in australia and am planning on the obd1 conversion over the next 6 months..ill be right with making a bracket for the dissy but am definately interested in milling up a cam key to save some time...the dollar has gone to shit lately so the expense of shipping an item is through the roof which sucks...i know the focus is on the main plate but has the cam key design been tested?

Nothing has been produced yet, so it hasn't been tested.

[LX-incredible]

For the D-ring I was using the stock thermostat housing seal as a reference. It's normally stocked at Autozone (Felpro 35507, $1.99) and probably most other parts stores as well. What I should probably do is actually measure all the dimensions in the seal groove on an actual thermostat housing and copy those. I have a spare housing sitting here but it has an old seal still in it and I didn't bother to remove it. The model should be pretty close but I could check it further.

The O-ring groove I just copied. It would be nice to find an off the shelf part to use. Maybe even something that's already used somewhere else on the car.

Blind tapping holes is no big deal. This particular one will likely have to be done with a bottoming tap to get enough threads, but that's not a problem.

Waterjetting is not a bad idea. I imagine the through holes could also be cut as well. That just leaves the seal grooves, countersinks, and coolant port.

I figured the $770 cost for one would be too high. Unfortunately the first one is always the most expensive because of the programming time required. I can ask about getting the cost down, like maybe getting only 3 made for the 5x price. He might be willing to do that. There may also be some value in refining the design to reduce machining cost; like making the coolant port simpler.

So GHMC, when you say revise the coolant port, what are you thinking?

C|

I have all the o-rings and bolts for 50 plates. My plan was to try and sell each one as a kit with everything that's required. Again, not looking to make anything on this, just didn't feel like paying $5 for an o-ring that I could get in a 50 pack for 10 cents.
I'm all for making things simpler, let's see what you have in mind.

[LX-incredible]

hey guys great to see this project comming along...just a question, are you planning on releasing the design files for this...i live in australia and am planning on the obd1 conversion over the next 6 months..ill be right with making a bracket for the dissy but am definately interested in milling up a cam key to save some time...the dollar has gone to shit lately so the expense of shipping an item is through the roof which sucks...i know the focus is on the main plate but has the cam key design been tested?

Nothing's been tested yet. The key alone would be worthless without the plate. The distributor would need to mount at a different angle and still be modified to clear the thermostat housing. It would also be too damn long unless you were planning on spacing it 3/4" as well.

[gfrg88]

damn.. if you guys start making those kits, it will really push me back into a 3rd gen!! this would be so awesome!!

[Tdurr]

omg so close.... If i get this new job then I will deff be able to get one for testing for under 200 if yall were able to do that. Im so excited that you guys put this much work into this!!

[lostforawhile]

wgatever happened to crucial anyway?

[LX-incredible]

Who knows... I remember him saying he got a second DUI or something.

[1ajs]

I noticed the overlap of the one threaded hole with the D-ring groove before, and I didn't think it would be an issue. However after looking at it again, it's a little too close for comfort. So I think it's best to stop short of that groove, and the model has been adjusted as such.

The models were done in Solidworks. I know of Inventor but have never used it. In Solidworks the coolant port is done with something called a "loft cut". You sketch the end shapes on the front and back planes and it extrudes a cut from one to the other. The end shapes don't have to be the same either, so you can transition from one shape to another, like if you wanted to go from a round hole to a square hole. Very cool stuff.

To make the coolant port in real life you can just setup the plate on an angle and cut down through it. This is why I put radiuses on the inside of the port.


I ended up not going to the shop yesterday but I got some numbers anyway.

Adapter Plate:
$530 Qty = 1
$1350 Qty = 5

Distributor Key:
$240 Qty = 1
$510 Qty = 5

So for one set of parts the total is $770. For 5 sets of parts the total is $1860, which works out to $372 per set. Obviously 5 sets would be the way to go if possible. I know this may sound expensive to some but machine work is expensive. I don't know what my friends profit margin is on this but I'm certain it isn't that much. And just so everyone knows, I'm making exactly $0 on this. I just think it's a cool project and I want to see it succeed. Also, if this ends up happening I will make sure we end up with good parts and not paperweights. I would probably print out some 1:1 scale drawings to use as templates and go test fit them at the junkyard.


So that's where we stand. One last note, if there are any other adjustments to make, or if there's anything else that would be cool to include on the adapter plate, now would be the time to get it in.

C|

why not make a plug tht goes in overtop of the bolt?

[Ichiban]

Still working 12's over at Finning/Caterpillar. This weekend doesn't look good either, I think I'm allergic to portable line boring.

[cygnus x-1]

why not make a plug tht goes in overtop of the bolt?

Because it's something extra to have to do. It's easier to just not drill and tap all the way through.

I talked to the machinist today about this to see what we could work out. He said to just make all drill/tap holes the same (all blind like the one over the port groove), so I did that. We also talked about the coolant port, and he confirmed that it definitely made the job much harder. He suggested that there might be enough overlap between the holes to just mill straight down from both sides. So I changed the model and it looks like it will work. It doesn't look as nice as the angled port but the effective cross sectional area is still about the same as the outlet ports on the thermostat housing. So it won't be a flow restriction.

We'll see how much this reduces the quote.







C|

[lostforawhile]

Who knows... I remember him saying he got a second DUI or something.

haha he might be in jail getting his exaust port reamed. j/p