Electrical short?

[brjason]

After never having any electrical problems at all, my 87 LXi has had a dead battery about 4 times now in the last 2 weeks. Each time, I've been able to get a jump start and it has started right up immediately with no further issues.

It happened again today. This time, though, I noticed as I wiggled the key to make sure there wasn't a broken connection to the starter that the tachymeter needle started jumping around (while the engine was still off).

This seems like an electrical short to me, and I'm guessing it might be what's running my battery dead. What do you all think? What's a good way to troubleshoot this for sure?

[DBMaster]

Do you get the dash lights when the key is in the "ON" position? Also, how old is the battery and what brand is it?

[brjason]

I don't remember the brand, but I know it's nothing special (generic, I think). Also, I don't know exactly how old it is... I'd say at least 2 or 3 years.

The first time this happened (a week and a half ago or so) was right after I filled the cells in the battery with water while I was doing other maintenance on the vehicle. Is there something I could have done wrong with that to have caused this? I keep wondering if I overfilled it, since I keep seeing water on the top of the battery, but I'm pretty sure I didn't.

The strangest thing was to see the tachymeter jumping while the engine was off this morning, though...

When this happens I don't get any dash lights or any other indications of electrical power. It usually seems to go dead really quickly, too... every time this has happened it has been when I've turned the engine off for only a couple of minutes. I run into a coffee shop or something and come right back and can't start it up. Most of the time, though there's no problem at all.

[DBMaster]

I am going to go out on a limb and say you probably have a bad battery. The life expectancy of a conventional battery in my car has never gone beyond three years. I currently havce a five year old Optima battery. What you are describing, though, is classic worn out battery. You can either take the battery out and bring it into almost any place that sells batteries and they will test it. A lot of parts places, like Auto Zone, can wheel a tester out to your car and test it.

[brjason]

Thanks for the info. I'll test it or get it tested.

Do you have any ideas about the tachymeter jumping without the engine on? I'm a little concerned about shelling out for a new battery, then having that one go out on me too because of a short...

[DBMaster]

Not sure about that one, but if your battery is bad the tester will tell you. Maybe the tach thing is related, but I have never seen that before.

[lostforawhile]

you put water in your batttery? um i didn't even think they still made non sealed batteries anymore. i hope you didn't add water to a maintnence free battery. and check your ground cable where it attaches to the car,also the one from the engine to the car body

[brjason]

Thanks for the reminder about checking my grounds... I'll do that tonight.

How do I know if this is a "maintenance-free" battery? What would be the result of putting water in one of those? I assume "maintenance-free" means the fluid levels don't have to be checked...?

[lostforawhile]

Thanks for the reminder about checking my grounds... I'll do that tonight.

How do I know if this is a "maintenance-free" battery? What would be the result of putting water in one of those? I assume "maintenance-free" means the fluid levels don't have to be checked...?

i'm pretty sure it is,they haven't made ones you check the level in for quite a while,at least not for cars. if you added water you probably diluted the eletrolyte and ruined the battery.

[2oodoor]

You can still pull the caps off of those but it is just a matter of time before it goes, It wouldnt be dry unless you had an over charging or battery overheating or leaking out issue. Those dryed up cell batterys can explode (actually implode) when you load them so be very careful.
the tack jumping sounds like a ground issue or shorted battery (polarity response)

[brjason]

Like I said... how do I know if it's a maintenance-free battery, apart from you being "pretty sure" that it is?

[brjason]

You can still pull the caps off of those but it is just a matter of time before it goes

You mean that you can still pull the caps off maintenance-free batteries? And what do you mean that it's just a matter of time "before it goes?" Do you mean "if you remove the caps?" or what?

The cells weren't dry when I checked them... the fluid level just looked a little low so I filled them up.

Does anybody know the difference between maintenance-free batteries and the old kind? What is different about the MF ones that makes it unnecessary to monitor the fluid level?

[lostforawhile]

You mean that you can still pull the caps off maintenance-free batteries? And what do you mean that it's just a matter of time "before it goes?" Do you mean "if you remove the caps?" or what?

The cells weren't dry when I checked them... the fluid level just looked a little low so I filled them up.

Does anybody know the difference between maintenance-free batteries and the old kind? What is different about the MF ones that makes it unnecessary to monitor the fluid level?

they are designed to be filled at the factory one time,and never filled again. they don't lose fluid like the old style battery did. a few lawnmower batteris are still fillable, but thats about it. this is a common mistake a lot of people make,you aren't the first. where did you buy it?

[2oodoor]

If you are so uninfromed and unsure about the batterys, follow the advice given. Advance auto, and auto zone will check your battery for FREE, you can stand there and watch them. If the battery is bad, well then you have not lost anything buy replacing it.
All batterys are maintenance free since about 1980, (except equipment type batterys, things with generator type charging systems, or regenerating type) They still have caps, some you can remove but removing them is just to check the electrolyte. If they were low there was a problem with the battery or system overcharging, if you add water you are just diluting the electrolyte. Once that is done IT IS A MATTER OF TIME before the battery leaves you stranded.. because it will never charge up to factory specs ever again.. although.... it may still last you a few months... maybe

[88Accord-DX]

WHEN you get the car started, take it to the parts store & have them do a load test on the battery & charging system. The same tester will check both, check back later when you find out the results.

[brjason]

If you are so uninfromed and unsure about the batterys, follow the advice given.

??

[brjason]

The battery is fine... I had it tested today.

I don't know what you guys are talking about... I've been doing some research, and there are many auto batteries that are still not maintenance-free. Many knowledgeable sources believe that even those that are "maintenance-free" are basically just designed to fail prematurely by making it difficult to maintain the electrolyte level, thereby ensuring a constant stream of new battery purchases.

[2oodoor]

If you didn't have a loose connections, and your battery was actually dead 4 times in one week.. I do not have much confedence in the tester that tested your battery. Even if there is charging problem, modern batterys can not handle complete discharges but a few times in there lifespan. They never can recoupe for full charge.
I hope your problem is resolved, as it stands.. I do not see a problem unless your original question still goes? just here to try and help, it is hard to diagnose these things remotely so experiences are all we got

[brjason]

I hope your problem is resolved, as it stands.. I do not see a problem unless your original question still goes? just here to try and help, it is hard to diagnose these things remotely so experiences are all we got

Yeah, no worries...

If you didn't have a loose connections, and your battery was actually dead 4 times in one week.. I do not have much confedence in the tester that tested your battery. Even if there is charging problem, modern batterys can not handle complete discharges but a few times in there lifespan. They never can recoupe for full charge.

I has died 4 times in 3-4 weeks...

I don't have any reason to distrust the tester, but who knows...? In any case, I'm zeroing in on the possible ground issue. I don't quite know what else to do, since this battery works wonderfully except for every once in a while when it doesn't work at all.

[Hauntd ca3]

These maintainence free batts are a load of shit
Unless its completely sealed and has a batt condition indicator on it
you should keep an eye on the acid level
Adding distilled water wont hurt it at all
Just dont over fill it
About half an inch over the plates is fine
As the level drops, the acid becomes more consentrated and adding water
to the proper level just brings it back to a normal ph level
Charge up your batt fully before you get it tested or if you have a batt hydrometer to check it with it should show on a scale the state of the batt.
if its a sealed batt, charge it, stick it in the car and turn on your high beams for ten seconds to burn of any surface charge .
Take a voltage reading with your voltmeter and a good batt should be 12.5/12.7 volts
any lower than 12.2 and time for a new batt.
Make sure if you get your batt checked by an auto sparky that they
load the batt to half of the cca rating
Have seen to many put a 300 amp load on a 400 cca batt and wonder why it failed.
Your car will only put 100/150n amp load when cranking

[brjason]

Thanks Hauntd ca3 for the solid info...

Is there anything you can think of that I could have done wrong with filling the cells to have caused what I'm experiencing? I used distilled water, but may possibly have overfilled the battery...

And have you ever seen the spiking tachymeter while I wiggle the key when the engine is off?

[dlr1989]

If you were wiggling the key when the tach was jumping around I have to wonder about your ignition switch. Ignition switch problems can also explain some starting problems. When it would not start, did you have dash lights or were all the idiot lights off? Failure of the electrical contacts in the ignition switch on these cars is a common problem.

[brjason]

If you were wiggling the key when the tach was jumping around I have to wonder about your ignition switch. Ignition switch problems can also explain some starting problems. When it would not start, did you have dash lights or were all the idiot lights off? Failure of the electrical contacts in the ignition switch on these cars is a common problem.

Each time it has happened, the battery has been completely or nearly completely dead... i.e. no (or very dim) dash lights, no ability to turn on any electrical device, no turning over of the engine (though the solenoid has clicked the couple of times that the battery hasn't been quite completely dead).

My thought has been that there's maybe a short in the ignition switch that drains the battery if the car is turned off a certain way...

[Hauntd ca3]

when you take the caps off the cels and look inside it, you should see some plastic things that go down from the top of the batt and point towards the acid
they are prob an inch or so long and go about half way down to the plates.
only fill until the acid reaches the bottom of those plastic bits
if you over fill it, you end up with the batt gassing to much when its charging.
and we all know how dangerous hydrogen gas is
and you get that green crystal shit building up round the terminals.
the rest of your probs do point at the ign switch.
the stereo will take its turn on/stay on signal from the acc part of the switch
but the ignition is off the on part
if the on part of the switch is tired that could cause the stopping prob.
and the dim warning lights.
its the on/run part of the switch that carries the current for the coil and what not.
the start pos only connects the starter solenoid to the batt so it only carries 5 or 6 amps for as long as it takes to start the motor
but the run pos carries current aslong as the car is running, so it makes sence that it would burn out quicker i spose
hope that makes some sort of sense to you
does to me but then i wrote it i spose
good luck with it all

[brjason]

when you take the caps off the cels and look inside it, you should see some plastic things that go down from the top of the batt and point towards the acid
they are prob an inch or so long and go about half way down to the plates.
only fill until the acid reaches the bottom of those plastic bits
if you over fill it, you end up with the batt gassing to much when its charging.
and we all know how dangerous hydrogen gas is
and you get that green crystal shit building up round the terminals.

Based on your description, I did definitely overfill the battery. My question now is, what should I do about it? I'm sure the levels are lower now, because I've seen water on top of the battery when I've opened the hood since then. If I check the levels again and make sure they're down at the right level, then charge the battery up or whatever if necessary, might that be all that's needed on the battery side of things?