What do you mean by move as in it moves a tiny bit like 1mm or like you can push it all the way in as in 1cm down or half or 1/4 of an inch?
There is supposed to be play in the rockers but were talking about a gap of 0.15mm on the inlet and 0.30mm on the exhaust so you will notice movement on them if your mucking about with them
Accord Threory<<<>>>rjudgey classic old school vs new school
I appreciate and enjoy both of your posts here and over yonders
One thing to consider is DD drivability and environment changes, so if you build this A20 too wild it will be impractical to drive daily and get gas mileage like a V8.
What I get is new school you get the power and probably better drivability but is will cost serious $$ if you are not resouceful. With old school you get simplicity with raw instant power but don't go "hawg" wild with the induction or you will have a tempermental power plant.
Last edited by 2oodoor; 04-13-2008 at 04:31 AM.
well im no machinist so i cant go too crazy. what do you need for a port polish? do you have to buy a kit or can you use a dremmel?Originally Posted by roodoo2
It's called Port & Polish, and I suggest only skill machinest with the right tool should do it... I'm far from it.
I acually think I am going with a weber.
what about just cleaning up inside the head?
Headwork, you don't have to have anything amazingly special but you do have to be to a degree pretty handy with your hands to do a good job, if making models, or DIY, or even body work isn't your thing then stay clear but if your handy with a dremel with a flexible shaft then all you need is some sanding drums, flap wheels and some stones for a DIY port job, if you stick to things that i have mentioned in teh past posts and guides to DIY head work then you'll be fine, just a quick clean up inside, with some minor work to the inlet ports, more work invovled in the exhuast port, and some cleaning up in the chambers combined with 3 angle race cut seats and cuts on the valve head you can get some some gains with a mild to wild setup. You'll get even more if you can increase the size of your valves but you'll need considerable increase in fuleing and air intake to benefit from this.
Guess I hit a nerve there.. Whatever. I never thought you were full of shit, I just wanted to see the dyno plot. A dyno chart is a completely different thing from a quarter mile result. A dyno chart shows you the engine's torque across it's entire operating range, the printout from the dragstrip sure as fuck doesn't. Obviously, we all know your trap speed, and e.t, to a leser degree, is a function of the power you were able to average to the ground during the run, but the dyno tells you more. I was just curious to see it.
You've taken what I've said far too much as criticism when it's not.
Sigh..okay, trying to to get emotionally involved in my post here. Vtec was created by an engineer with the goal of 100hp/liter without any compromise in fuel economy/efficiency or lower rpm power. I'd say the engineer suceeded quite admirably. I don't think you really understand that point of vtec. Actually, I take that back, I know you don't. The point is a better, flatter torque curve. No compromise.
Next, vtec is not diabled in race engines. Yes, there are roller valvetrain setups available that eliminate the vtec lobe and just use huge primary lobes instead, but that is just a matter of preference. More racers don't use that than do. You would never use that on a street car, or a motor that spends any time under about 5k rpm. There is no drawback to vtec. It's engineering without compromise. You can put the crower 404s in a ls, or get a gsr. With the gsr, you get the smooth idle, nice fuel economy, and the upper rpm VE of the bigger lobes.
As far as vtec engaging earlier than factory settings in a "race engine", that's completely incorrect. I suspect you don't even know how to tune the vtec engagement point. You do, tell me back, because you can bet I can tell you exactly how.
I really don't understand why you don't take advantage of technology and apply your knowledge of porting, head mods, "fluid dynamics", etc to a vtec motor. It all still applies, and you can run cams with huge vtec lobes for insane upper rpm power. There are people who have achieved nearly 300whp n/a with the b series motors. You could still even run carbs with the vtec if you wanted to.
Now as far as "the learning ridicule", that pisses me off. That wasn't directed at you, I said the to the o.p., keep learning (before you commit to anything) Tell me how the fuck that's bad advice. Seriously. And if you want to debate me, go ahead. You've been building these motors for longer than I've been driving? What kind of bullshit is that? At 26, I'm not much of a kid anymore, and if you think your seniority is going to earn you a win by default, keep thinking.
"Shame were not vaguely close i bet my webered A20 would have a lot of fun beating your turbo cars not only do you have to worry about boost adn lg, but the sudden spike in torque makes for interesting handling, Hell i bet you'd have a job getting past my Diesel!!"
And if this pointless shit talking is a reflection of the maturity associated with your seniority (how old are you anyway?) you'd probably get your ass fucking handed to you.
Too bad I don't have any time these days to work on my car, 60+hrs a week doesn't leave me much energy or time to finish building my turbosystem..but it won't be anything slower than 11s when it's driving again.
But.......... How easy and cheap is it to V-tec a 3g?? I assume it's much cheaper and easier to get the head worked on than it is to get V-tec.
On the point of daily driving, I would much rather have V-tec. I would much rather have V-tec with headwork done by rjudgey if I were to make a very fast N/A bracket car, but I am far from spending money on my car...
What kind of V-tec options are there??
Last edited by Bass Man; 04-16-2008 at 04:02 PM.
like i said vtec is not everything...i need to show you guys a vid of a NA a20 can do
1989 Honda Accord LX-i
B18c1 swap since 7/2011
175whp and 132tq
Redzone tuned
lets see some...
I'm very impressed with mine after a little tuning, but I know I can get more out of it without taking off the head...
not trying to get into an argument here with anyone but
in the uk in the btcc honda used to race what most countries call an ascot innova but they called it an accord liftback.
these were prob the most ighly developed honda na four cylinder motors ever
they wnt so far as to turn the head round so the inlets are at the front and used big fuck off quad slide throttle bodies, 55 plus mm if what i,ve heard is right
since the btcc cars didnt operate below 6000 rpm very often, vtec was deemed redundant and completely removed for fears of reliablity under continued extreme conditions and for the fact it was excess moving parts
i agree with rjudgey, that an a20 or b20 with big arse cams sound awesome even tho they tend to be a pig to drive at round town speeds.
i also like having my big h22a vtec accord as a dd
gives me the nice 40mpg for my commute and the go to overtake quickly and waste wannabe
racers in primeras and corollas with ease
there are big arguements for both sides
i personally like na motors with big cams/ but also like turbos and vtec
First, it's VTEC. Not V-tech. Valve Timing Electronic Control. It's an actual acronym, not like these faggot ass names used by most other manufacturers, like ford's zetec, gm's ecotec, vortec, etc.
The options are basically a gsr, h22, or the newer k series. I left out the b16 because it's just too tiny in my opinion..although I'm sure someone with a b16 will get all butthurt and argue with me about this.
Lol!! I don't know why the hell I said V-tec.... I've been around vtec longer than 3g's.
Those swaps are pretty dang hard IMO.
Accord Theory lets take this down a level had a chat with a few of your members and they like you but all say your pretty tough on people and to be honest so am i when they get my back up so lets chill out a little here. No need to get so angry cause he got carried away with adding a H to the Vtec easy mistake to make your way to harsh there man!!
I don't just apply my theories to A20's and ET's i've worked on many different types of heads, and not just B20A as well, i've modded 2.0l 4 cylinder BMW engines, i've done Lotus Elan head (Isuzu engine BTW), working on pressently Toyota Starlet 5EFE engine which is going to be all out race engine with Quad bike carbs (Friends son's car), as well as Rover K series which is Vtec (designed in conjunction with Honda), and in future going to be getting a full BMW diesel unit which will have head work and manifold work done to that.
I've no doubt you've got 11 second car but i'm talking about track racing here not drag if our cars would ever meet it would be the fastest not because it has more power but it can put it down more effectively not to mention stop and handle better (although being much lighter gives it the handling advantage) the stopping because i had custom 4 pot race caliper and disks designed for my 2G lude as well.
I have no bones about not working on Vtec engines i would love to work on a Vtec head all i'm saying that for myself personally and anyone else who is after a hardccore engine the Vtec is not needed it's just for people who want everyday driveability in there little shopping cart. Personally i like cars with character and vtec takes away the character of the car and it's engine that is the point i'm trying to make, the part of what makes driving fun is that the car has a bit of a bite to it and if you don't treat it right it acts like a donkey!!! But fortunately goes like a race horse!!!
Now i have no doubt you can tune and bolt on a turbo to make big power thats your bag mine is to just use the drag strip as a cheap tuning session and have a bit of fun with the kids and there new hot hatches getting beat by a 25 year old honda. I like my fun on the race track taking on bigger stuff like porsches and Lotus Elise's the car is designed as a track car from the suspension, brakes, and to certain extent the engine as well. I've had 285 degree cam in my engines and to be honest they've all been perfectly tractable and they've delivered power all the way upto 8k rpm with pretty good reliability from stock parts, they idle at 1000rpm sound a bit lumpy and if your not gentle with the throttle and clutch can jump around like a kangaroo occasionally but other than that more than happy to drive it around traffic etc. Now i know a full on race cam such as a 300+ degree might be a different story but i don't think a cam is really needed that high in an A20 you use the A20's benefits of gobs full of torque to get the accelleration you need and with head work and some medium specced cams you get that and thats what makes my car so quick is the good combination of torque and bhp where as a 300bhp B series is just like a Bike engine all bhp and not much torque. Also A20 has the potential for Bhp just needs the right ingredients the King Motorports 2nd gen lude had 348bhp just wish they would let me know how (and i have asked!!!)
But also like you dabbling with turbos on a steep learning curve but getting there, although used as a Daily driver and for work i'm doing this in stages and when it's time to buy a new car to use this will become my next track weapon. My Baby Beemer 120d Msport has allready had the ECU tuned by a BMW diesel specialist, had air induction mods including filter, and reworking of the BMW CAI done by myself which included some flowing and cleaning up of the insides of the plastic mouldings, recalibrated chip on the throttle pedal (Fly by wire) which accounted for a 6bhp increase!!! shocked by that!! This so far has my oil burner putting down around 215bhp and about 310lbft torque, but soon will be fitting a custom ally intercooler, and a new larger stainless steel exhaust system, this should boost it up a little more on the stock turbo to about 230bhp and bit more torque. But after this will be full on head and manifold work, with cams, valves, bigger injectors from 335d, and then were getting serious as it will be getting LPG system added to mix with the diesel with a new hybrid turbo with 360 degree thrust bearing as the stock unit doesn't last too long 25k miles!!! Then we'll be looking at another session at the ECU tuners to be getting around 300bhp with the potential for more if i decide to put NOS in by this time i'll be looking at 330d clutch and a racing LSD for the diff fortunately it's RWD so no more spinning up the front wheels and sitting still burning rubber so the power can be effectively put down. I've talked to the tuner who allready has been doing LPG mods to Diesels and 300bhp is very achievable and maybe even more is possible. With Nos could be easily another 50bhp on top and looking at torque of around 400-450lbft now did you know that one of the fastest top fuel dragsters is actually a diesel running an LPG and NOS mix so there you go are you sure you still wanna play around with VTec and petrol) I'm just keeping my options open i have my old school honda with it's old school tuning methods and then i have my modern Derv oil burner with modern way of thinking for huge power and torque increases. now all i have to do with the beemer is work out where they hid all the lead ballast in the damn thing cause for the life of me i can't work out why it weighs 1500kg's!!!!! With the mods done on my Beemer so far at stock weight with a tow bar fixment on it i've run 14.9 second 1/4 mile not bad for a diesel wouldn't you say but this is only going to get better especially when i get some better tyres!! Also pretty handy on the race track as well the ultra stiff Msport suspension and the brakes are brilliant even being OEM they perfrom like a race car and have lapped as quickly as non turbo porsches, Lotus's, BMW M3's, and similar cars. Allways leaves people shocked not sure which is more fun beating people in a Diesel or the 25 year old honda!!!
Anyways back on track any luck with the Bike carbs, inlet manifold really wouldn't be that hard the trouble with the weber DGV 38/38 is the the butterfly's open up the wrong way, and the extra bend in it being a downdraught kills the flow a bit. The bike carbs are a good way to go better at low end speeds as well whereas the webers are a bit lumpy and bumpy. Unles you go with the 32/36 but perfromance increase over stock is not much more. Worth thinking about a single DCOE though quite common on some engines although they are mostly smaller than 1600cc but if you use a big enough one and jet it correctly should be fine for a 2.0l as well.
also honda Vtec system is good but others have developed and made systems as good maybe even better e.g mitsubshi MIVEC in the 2.0l V6 was at the time putting down better bhp numbers than Hondas own Vtec engines. I believe it was the first to get the 100bhp per litre accolade on a N/A 2.0l engine. But yes it's good and many have failed to do as good a job but i think most have caught up especially BMW have some pretty damn fancy variable systems which combined with their new direct injection petrol heads give some really good results with superb fuel economy way better than K20, yes K20 has abit more power but at cost to fuel economy and if were argueing over Vtec technology fuel economy is a big deal for these engines otherwise whats the point having the Vtec.
Were also getting to the point where engines are all pretty much the same and no one has come out with any new big ideas (except maybe BMW with direct injection petrol heads) but they are all still basically the same, they are all 4 stroke, have pistons, valves, cams, and injectors about time some one did something truly different that will make a mark on the world, i hope it's honda but we really need to be thinking beyond petrol or at least making petrol work the best it can while we still have it!!!
I don't have an 11 second car, I just have a project in pieces. I have a tig welder, money and knowledge, but no free time. I also still need the intercooler, injectors, hondata s300, etc. As far as the handling, I have the $700 revalved bilsteins, and will get ground controls and ST swaybars to round out the package. I also want the quaife diff. I figure that, along with some decent tires on my 17s, will help considerably. My brakes are just the ebc yellow pads with the 88/89 disks. Those are damn good though.
I don't know about the mivec or whatever system, but it would surprise the hell out of me if mitsubishi came up with something on par with honda. My favorite system (that I currently understand anyway) is BMW's "valvetronic" setup.
As far as diesels, I do like them. The higher dynamic compression just makes sense. I plan on buying a dodge truck with the cummins and modifying that at some point not too far in the future.
rjudgey what do you mean 38 DG butterflys open the wrong way?
the butterfly's when opening starve the other side of the manifold also when cornering hard the fuel gets starved as well, the position that the DGV 38/38 fits on a 3G isn't how Weber designed it to be used so it doesn't work too well. DGV 32/36 works better but as it's smaller you get less power. Really with any performance carb you really should make a custom inlet manifold to get the best out of them. Still think a Single DCOE would be best for Daily driver or even two fat bike carbs.
position? you mean angle of the thottle plates? I have a DFAV so I already have it backward. What else do you mean, twisted sideways or plenum area. If you don't mind elaborating a little or point me to a reference or link.
That is a bold statement... I dred just looking under the hood on these diesels. There are so much more sensors on diesel engines, I just stay away...
But I've seen a lot of 13-14 second 96-2008 dodges (never seen a ford on the track :P)
Diesel is the way to go even with all the mods i have and teh power output i get better gas mileage than from stock average about 45mpg and if on motorway can cruise at around 60-65mpg at around 75-80mph!!!! But as we pay nearly $2.50 a litre for top quality diesel it had better do lots of mpg!!!!!
Hmmm surprised you haven't got the hot bits suspension your 3G?? Can't wait to fit mine in the near future. Glad you like the BMW technology kinda amusing really as they really were quite backwards in engine design for a while then they suddenly came out with direct head inject and better variable valve control, they allways were good at the M series engines but there everyday runners were miles behind the competition. But now they are leading the technology front in power and emissions in both diesel and petrol!! Wonder how long it will be before we see variable timing on diesels!!!
Love the rush you get from Diesel i really need to take some video footage of the Diesel i think even you guy's would be impressed it's so quick once you get it moving bit slow upto 75mph as you have to change gears 3 times bit once your into 4th gear and above it just leaves most things standing really needs a 7th gear though as it tops out at 155mph in 6th at max revs with a taller 6th gear and bigger rear tyres i reckon it could go as far as 160mph maybe bit more. Other impressive thing is how smooth the dyno graph is on this one had this done by DMS real BMW diesel specialist they even flyout to U.S.A to do remap for customers really really smooth curves and the torque is amzingly even throughout the rev range with the bhp peaking right at the end of the rpm range.
Thats an early dyno when the engine had been run in nicely after 10k miles and had just a re-map done, good figures though was 209bhp and 296lbft of torque, but really need to get a nice exhaust made up with maybe a Hi Flow cat put in but we'll see waiting for the old one to fall apart a bit more first. Can't wait to see howmuch more i can get out of the stock turbo but need to be aware of the clutch not sure what the limit is it can handle hopefully it's same clutch plate as the bigger engines seems to handle what it has without any issues done 58k miles and still gripping strong with biting point still nice an low.
Must confess i do actually enjoy driving the Beemer more a little on track being RWD and having so much torque does make it rather interesting although my lude is still more fun ultimately as you feel like you done 10 rounds with mike tyson after a track day in the lude the BMW is easy riding although very quick lack sthe raw racer element you get with the lude.
Last edited by rjudgey; 04-19-2008 at 11:00 AM.
I redline at 7200-3500 ish.... Power stops around 6600-6800 I dont pay too much attention....so i cant be sure on #'s....
just food for thought...
~TDR
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