What the hell is this all about? DCOE's?

[markmdz89hatch]

nice. thanks for the reply. ...as always, very very informative.

PCV: First, I'm an idiot because I was thinking backwards. Forgot the flow was to release air back into the manifold, rather then pull from it. That said, I think a diagram would be best to show how I envision setting everything up (which I'll draw up now and post in a few).

As for releasing air back into the manifold, just as I'm setting up the can for any vacuum needs (ie. booster, dizzy) so there's no pull directly from a runner, I would do the same in reverse. As the PCV dumps air, I would put that on a vac manifold (pre-can) so it can distribute it's air dump back into the manifold via all 4 runners.

Stock Oil Can: Yeah, I was thinking about the best way to mock that block fitting up with aftermarket parts, and ended up hurting my brain, so I'm going to end up doing what you said and sticking with the stock can in addition to an additional catch can. However, I'm assuming that additional can would have to be drained occasionally unless I tap the bottom of it and push that oil back into the motor via a Y fitting on the oil-pain hose as well.

I looked into the oil filter relocation more, and for the exact reasons you mentioned, I'm going to hold off on it.

You read my friggin mind on the use of a PVC pipe capped on both ends for the vac can too. Just this morning I was looking at all of the cans, and saw that the max any of the vac guages goes to is 30 in Hg, which is nothing more then a 14 psi negative pressure, which PVC would laugh at. Not only that, but that's free (courtesy of having a ton of spare pipe and fittings in my basement), in comparison to the $35-80 I would spend for one at Summit or Jegs.

I'll get a drawing together very soon.

[2ndGenGuy]

On my 81, I used a tin can that had little oranges in it. The small can was just the right size... The bonus is that the oranges were delicious.

I just used silver solder and put two hose fittings into it from Home Depot and soldered them on, and soldered the lid back on. Then painted it all black. Nobody knows it was a can of oranges and it does it's job well. After about 2-3 oil changes it gets pretty full of nasty goup.

I think the best thing about the catch can is using it to keep the moisture out of your engine. As the oil gets hot, the moisture boils out of the engine and it gets captured in the can. I would not dump it back into the crank case... You get a white creamy liquid that fills up in the can, and you are happy you didn't burn it or let it sit in your crank case by just putting filters on each end of your PCV system.

[markmdz89hatch]

as I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to put this diagram together, I had to stop and think for a second about that PCV again.

2ndGenGuy --> Can I assume that you're not piping that back into the manifold? Instead, what you have is the stock oil can on the back of the block piped as stock>PCV>Catch can, and there it stops?

If the PCV is just acting as a crank pressure relief, but does still expel some oil vapors, then with the use of a catch can (as long as it becomes regular practice to drain it) there's no need to direct it back into the manny right?

That would then alleviate the a/f mixture issues that the PCV dumping air into the runner would produce right?

ouch, me cranium is starting to smoke.

[2ndGenGuy]

The 1g doesn't have a true PCV system. It only has the vent on the valve cover. The other end of that can does actually hook directly to the manifold. I have it also split and hooked to carb vacuum with a check valve on each line so that the carb vacuum won't pull from the manifold and vice-versa. Basically how a stock 1g is set up. There's not even a stock PCV valve to regulate the flow on this car, and in my opinion isn't a very good setup, but that's how it is. The vacuum leak doesn't really affect the running of the car, just a slight turn on the mixture screw takes care of it.

But back on topic of the 3rd gens....

Honda improved on crankcase ventilation in their next motors (ES/ET/A series) by adding a vent for the fresh air to come in, making it a true PCV system with the valve to regulate the flow properly. That's why you do want to hook it to manifold vacuum on your car as well.

If you don't hook manifold vacuum up to either the valve cover or the case vent on your motor fresh air won't be drawn in properly, nor will all the crap exit your crankcase properly. Excess pressure may blow out through either path naturally, but it will probably leave all the blowby and moisture swirling around in your engine and you don't want that.

Having that "leak" isn't that bad of a deal. Your PCV valve should help on your motor a lot, and actually cut back a lot of the vacuum flow at low RPM if I recall correctly, since crankcase pressures are lower anyways.

I hope I didn't just confuse the crap out of you with this...

[markmdz89hatch]

ok, so here's what I had in mind for the vacuum setup. The green indicates vacuum feed to the can, and orange is the draw from the can.

I intentionally left out the PCV because I'm hoping to tackle that without the need to tap the manifold. Instead unless someone out there is going to try and convince me otherwise, I'm going to end up with a setup as follows:

Stock can on the back of the block --> PCV --> Catch can with a drain mounted to the firewall or somewhere else out of the way to keep the clutter to a minimum.

Please chime in if you think this vac setup and pcv setup is good, bad, or just ehh...

[markmdz89hatch]

2ndGenGuy --> ok, in light of that last post, I'm still liking the idea of a semi-isolated system.

But, just to understand correctly, the PCV is a bi-directional valve? It relieves crank case pressure (thus letting some oil vapors and air back into the manifold [on a stock setup that is]), and also pulls fresh air back into the motor? I don't quite get the whole concept of it drawing fresh air into the motor?

Anyway, when looking at all of the oil catch cans on various sites, nearly all of them have a breather filter fixed at the top of them to keep pressure from building up in the can. I'll be doing that same thing with my setup as well.

[2ndGenGuy]

I think the Wikipedia article can explain how the PCV valve works the best. The PCV valve is just one part of the whole PCV system. And the system is what draws in the fresh air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCV_valve#PCV_valve

In their example, they use a V8 where the breather (drawing fresh air) is on one valve cover, and the PCV valve is connected to the other valve cover.

In the 3rd gen, the breather is on the valve cover (where the fresh air is drawn in), but the PCV valve is connected to that box on the back of the motor. Which eventually goes to manifold vacuum. Also, I don't believe the PCV valve works using a spring on the Honda, but works via gravity so it always needs to be upright to work properly...

[lostforawhile]

the box on the back of the block is to seperate oil from the blowby gasses,oil gets vaporized in the rotating assembly,then it wants to travel up the pcv system and get burned in the engine, that box lets the liquid oil go back into the block, the second connection on the back of the block, is one of the oil drains from the head, vapors are pulled from the pan then the liquid oil drains back into that drain and runs back into the pan. as far as the pcv valve, it's spring loaded like any other valve. it only opens under certain vacume conditions. if the blowby gasses were dumping into the manifold at idle it would upset the idle mixture. basically fresh air is drawn from the air cleaner,travels through oil drains in the block, down through the block, while is does this it picks up water vapor and blowby gasses, the air is pulled up at the back of the oil pan, travels through the oil vapor seperator, liquid oil drains back to the pan, and blowby gasses are drawn through the pcv valve and into the manifold to be burned. i do like the seperator between the valve and the manifold,i have head a lot about that. the system works the same way but a lot of that crap stays out of the engine. i don't understand why new cars don't have this, you could have a sensor light to tell you when to empty the collector, or empty it at oil changes, and discard the gunk with the oil. it would keep a lot of crap out of the air.

[markmdz89hatch]

thanks Tim.

Alright, so now that I have spent hours here at work (while I'm supposed to be working) educating myself on the function and purpose of the PCV (although I'm still a little fuzzy about a few things)...

I'm thinking I'll still do the collection can, but also tap the top of it for a vacuum line, which would essentially allow all crap that the PCV Valve expels to either vaporize or condense. The vaporized emissions (gases) from the valve would get sucked out of the can and drawn back into vacuum reservoir, and eventually pulled back through into the manifold ignited.

The condensate, or 'heavy shit' that the PCV spits into the catch can will just drip down to the bottom of the can for removal at a later date.

Just another small bit of food for thought too...

If the V style motors use a tap on one valve cover for the breather tube, and a tap on the other cover for a tap for the PCV to release back into the combustion chamber, then what would be the harm in fitting our valve cover with another tap and pipe the PCV valve directly to it rather than a tapped runner?

Either way, with the exception of the PCV valve placement and plumbing, how does the diagram look above? Any suggestions for improvements? ..or do we think that's the most optimal way of running it?

[2ndGenGuy]

I would say you have it spot on Mark. Using the catch can as a vacuum chamber seems like a great idea to me, and I see no reason why it wouldn't work fantastic.

As far as two taps on the Honda valve cover, that wouldn't do any more than one. You still wouldn't get flow through the crankcase, it would just keep the valve cover area clear. In the V8, it goes in one valve cover, down the oil passage into the crank case, back up through the oil passage on the other head and into that valve cover and out.


There's an A20 setup.

Just to throw a wrench in the cog. The ES motor has the PCV valve in the valve cover, and that's what goes to manifold. But fresh air is drawn in at the back of the motor where your breather box is. The same could be done to an A20 if you wanted to, since the ES and A20 are essentially the same motors.

[lostforawhile]

I would say you have it spot on Mark. Using the catch can as a vacuum chamber seems like a great idea to me, and I see no reason why it wouldn't work fantastic.

As far as two taps on the Honda valve cover, that wouldn't do any more than one. You still wouldn't get flow through the crankcase, it would just keep the valve cover area clear. In the V8, it goes in one valve cover, down the oil passage into the crank case, back up through the oil passage on the other head and into that valve cover and out.


There's an A20 setup.

Just to throw a wrench in the cog. The ES motor has the PCV valve in the valve cover, and that's what goes to manifold. But fresh air is drawn in at the back of the motor where your breather box is. The same could be done to an A20 if you wanted to, since the ES and A20 are essentially the same motors.

right,the es motors system works the same as the a20,but in reverse. whatever the situation you still need the tapped vaccume somewhere to draw the air through the crankcase. the reason ours works the way it does, is in the reverse system, sludge tends to accumulate at the top of the engine and migrate downwards, in our system it would collect in the very bottom of the oil pan, where the oil would help keep it in suspension and be removed at oil changes the oil pan acts like a big catch can, another reason to keep up with your oil changes

[cygnus x-1]

Looks like you guys got it figured out. I think the diagram is basically what you want. Just add another tap on top of the can to go to the PCV valve. Then have a drain plug on the bottom.

The pressure/vacuum thing can get confusing. I find it easier to think of everything by manifold pressure, with the understanding that the manifold pressure is lower than the outside air pressure. Outside air pressure always stays the same, and the manifold pressure changes with engine load and RPM.

C|

[markmdz89hatch]

Alright, well now I have another MAJOR problem I'm going to have to deal with.

My intention was to get this car registered and just pull the reg when I got me letter for emissions testing (they usually give you about 2 years), but being that I was registered a few years ago, and let the reg expire, I now need to get temps and bring the car for an emissions test BEFORE I can even register the car.

Cygnus, hell anyone for that matter --> Is there a way for me to 'de-tune' these bastards after I put them on so I can at least pass emissions testing? I have heard rumor that they can pass if leaned out heavily, but I also don't feel like burning out the seals/rings, etc from running too lean just for the test.

Any suggestions? Is it even possible to pass with these uglies on?

[2oodoor]

I don't think it would, but then I don't have any DCOE and don't have to pass emmisions either
If I were you I would just borrow a 32/36 and intake to get the schicker, then give it back!

[cygnus x-1]

To have the best chance of passing you want the air/fuel ratio to be 14.7 as much as possible. That way the catalytic converter will be the most happy and keep the unburnt hydrocarbon and CO emissions low. Without an EGR valve you may have problems with too much NOx, especially with leaner mixtures. Lean mixtures are good for HC and CO but NOx goes through the roof. 14.7:1 is the sweet spot for emissions.

Also make sure the ignition timing is at factory specs.

I've heard that adding some ethanol to the gas helps a little too.

C|

[A18A]

oh man those there look sooooo nice

[2oodoor]

To have the best chance of passing you want the air/fuel ratio to be 14.7 as much as possible. That way the catalytic converter will be the most happy and keep the unburnt hydrocarbon and CO emissions low. Without an EGR valve you may have problems with too much NOx, especially with leaner mixtures. Lean mixtures are good for HC and CO but NOx goes through the roof. 14.7:1 is the sweet spot for emissions.

Also make sure the ignition timing is at factory specs.

I've heard that adding some ethanol to the gas helps a little too.

C|

wideband I am sure he will have with this set up
Mark you may get by, depends on circumstances know what I mean vern?

sort of a related topic>> the new diesels, in particular GM I am thinking of, has a special metal in the tailpipe that reduces certain elements in the exhaust , if you ever see a 2008 duramax pickup, notice the huge wang ricer tailpipe... mandatory engineering.

[markmdz89hatch]

I don't think it would, but then I don't have any DCOE and don't have to pass emmisions either
If I were you I would just borrow a 32/36 and intake to get the schicker, then give it back!

Guy, I'll PM you my shipping address then ok?

...and yes, I will be having an extra bung fitting welded into my header (on the collector) for a wideband/O2 sensor. ...that said though, I don't have a wideband, and it hasn't been factored into my budget (which is uber stretched already), so I'll have to find one that I can borrow just for the analysis and (de)tuning of the webers for the test. ...then of course one will be needed to retune the faakers too.

...buh, what a royal pita.

[2oodoor]

what about The (santa) clause? When do these old ass entheusisit hobby farm vehilces get to slide by emmissions certs.

Um I then > in turn can send you my address sir, many many circumstance can surround the likleyhood of passing, and you guessed just one possibility.

These are somewhat performance carbs but were used in some OEM cough cough Italia apps so even then if it is lean and clean it still has to be inside the EPA window for specification. I think you should get the wideband, rebudget. You will always have a use for it as long as you are running these. I think it will bug you relentlessly once you start driving it, geez I wonder if it's too lean today something something happen but uhhh I don't know for sure or Hrmm seems kinda rich now but whaaa oh I didn't get that doo hickey.. lol. j/k

[markmdz89hatch]

progress is VERY slow. Painfully slow in fact, but at least there is progress...

a few teaser shots....



...one horse (uhh.... ...i mean kitten) power. She and her twin sister are my newest assistants and supervisors...

[2ndGenGuy]

Man does that engine look tiny when it's just sitting there in front of your car! Cute kitten BTW.

[Civic Accord Honda]

it appears your engine bay is missing a engine! i would check the last road u drove down maybe it fell out not to far from your house?
haha cute cat tho and white head light surroundings FTW i did that to mine too

[A18A]

haha looks like you can fit 2 a20's in the front, one for each wheel

[Ichiban]

They should have made an A40A3 V8. That would kick ass. 240+ HP from the factory, and I bet it would sound good.

[2ndGenGuy]

They should have made an A40A3 V8. That would kick ass. 240+ HP from the factory, and I bet it would sound good.

You should make one. Just like that guy who made the Hyabusa V8. That thing sounds pretty pissed too.