What the hell is this all about? DCOE's?

[markmdz89hatch]

Alright, so, cat's out of the bag now. Many of the more veteran members may remember that waaaaay back in the day, I picked up a set of DCOE's with the dream to one day actually install them.

...NO, don't get your hopes up, they're not running on the car yet, but rather then waiting until I was completed with the project and making it a surprise, I figured maybe I could use this thread as a motivation to actually finish something for once.

...just yesterday I did a test fit... That's the elusive TWM B16/B18 DCOE manifold (brand friggin new, but been sitting on a shelf in my garage for the past 5-6 years) that I just pulled out of it's box this weekend, drilled a few extra holes in it, and well there you go. As said, angle is way off, but I'm working on that now.

Here's the outcome. ...still working on a way to get this proper angle figured out, but here's where I am so far...

EDIT: btw, for those that are about to give me a hard time for not at least cleaning up the motor, that's not the motor they're going to land on ultimately, but it is the original motor to the car (228K on it, and in pretty good shape if I don't say so myself.).

[2ndGenGuy]

Yeah those angle are all wrong. You should just give up on your project right now and send me those carbs. I'll get rid of them for you.

[2oodoor]

Hold up 2ndGenGuy, I have to inspect them first to make sure it is something you could use
That's Hot Mark !
how much more angle do you need, it's a shame you couldn't get it by modifiying the engine/tranny mounts.

[markmdz89hatch]

Hold up 2ndGenGuy, I have to inspect them first to make sure it is something you could use
That's Hot Mark !
how much more angle do you need, it's a shame you couldn't get it by modifiying the engine/tranny mounts.

you know, that's not a bad idea. I'll start looking into that now, but something makes me thing that'll be opening a can of worms I wish I hadn't opened. Because our motors use that additional center x-member, which also has a motor/tranny mount built into it, and with the mechanical shift linkage, and the side motor mount, I just think it would take so much fabrication that the cost of cutting and re-welding, or just custom fabb'ing a manifold would net a much lesser expense.

As for the angle, word on the dcoe street is that optimal angle for the dcoes to function at their best is +2°. That said, with the motor at +15°, the manifold would need the head flange cut at a 13° downturn.

Of course, the conflicting info on proper angle has been as low as dead level, and as high as +7°, so there appears to be a fair margin for error and still get a good performing setup.

[2oodoor]

wishfull thinking yes lol
another way would be using some kind of phonelic (sp?) material to cut a vibration isolator slash spacer, again nothing like cutting it and rewelding the flange at the desired angle.
I have the HPbooks "Weber Carbuartors" by Pat Braden, if you don't have that you should find it, I bought mine at Summit. It has recommended configurations on mulitiple engines. I can't readily find the optimum angle data but it is probably in there somewhere. They show a DCOE set up on a V8 and they are mounted at around 30 degree angle judging by the pictures.

[lostforawhile]

why not have the manifold flange machined to allow for the 15 degree tilt of the engine? i ended up putting two manifolds together to make it sit at the correct angle. the other problem you will have if you move the engine,is the oil pickup it's designed to work best where it is.

[2oodoor]

Mark you weren't kidding those things are fresh spanked baby butt new.

[markmdz89hatch]

yeah agreed. No tilting of the motor. That's like having 750 guys pick up a house and turn it just to unscrew a lightbulb. Instead, just turn the bulb.

The only trouble with cutting two manifolds together, is you end up with curved, or angled runners. The optimal setup is a tilted flange at the head side, and the runners straight, bend-free, and perpendicular to the carb flange.

Edit: Guy, I'm not playing around when I say they're new. I still have the boxes the DCOE's came in too. I lucked out and bought the whole kit from some guy on ebay about 6 years ago. Carb's, linkages, air horns, manifold, syncrometer, hard and soft mount kit, and spacers all for something like $950 shipped. ...and I still have the original box it was all shipped to me in.

[lostforawhile]

yeah agreed. No tilting of the motor. That's like having 750 guys pick up a house and turn it just to unscrew a lightbulb. Instead, just turn the bulb.

The only trouble with cutting two manifolds together, is you end up with curved, or angled runners. The optimal setup is a tilted flange at the head side, and the runners straight, bend-free, and perpendicular to the carb flange.

well it's part of a the original su manifold and part of the factory manifold made into one,it's a pretty straight shot to the cyl head the end of the factory runners are milled at 15 degrees

[markmdz89hatch]

i wanna see, i wanna see.

shit, on that note, how 'bout I send you a set of runners, and flanges (A20 intake, and 2xdcoe) and have you tig 'em up for me? I'll def pay you for the troubles as long as you can give me the quality (if not better) that I can get from a local fabricator. I'm all for putting money back into the same big pocket rather then sending it to someone only to increase their revenue.

...I'll need 4 bungs welded to the runners too for vacuum. c'mon Timster, whad'ya say?

[lostforawhile]

i wanna see, i wanna see.

i have an entire thread somewhere on here

[lostforawhile]

i wanna see, i wanna see.

shit, on that note, how 'bout I send you a set of runners, and flanges (A20 intake, and 2xdcoe) and have you tig 'em up for me? I'll def pay you for the troubles as long as you can give me the quality (if not better) that I can get from a local fabricator. I'm all for putting money back into the same big pocket rather then sending it to someone only to increase their revenue.

...I'll need 4 bungs welded to the runners too for vacuum.

well i had to send mine off to my stepbrothers in atlanta to have the welding done,we don't have anything heavy enough at work to do it. was quite a project just to get to this point.

[2oodoor]

come on now, the idea was tossed out there as outside the box thinking to help gain perspective on the problem. Anybody knows you could cut the drywall ceiling using only three guys to unscrew the bulb.. maybe a fourth one to keep twisting the wire.
Just how much angle correction do you need from the current point?
I know you dont want gas dripping out of the air horns.

There is another factor. Does the angle of the carb base flange change with suspension/tire modifications?

[lostforawhile]

angle shouldn't change if you lower all four wheels the same and keep the car level. oh heres my setup and heres one of the threads not all the pics work but most do.https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthrea...ighlight=carbs

[87roach]

This is sweet man, those things look crazy! Sounds like you have quite a project.

[Civic Accord Honda]

Alright, so, cat's out of the bag now. Many of the more veteran members may remember that waaaaay back in the day, I picked up a set of DCOE's with the dream to one day actually install them.

...NO, don't get your hopes up, they're not running on the car yet, but rather then waiting until I was completed with the project and making it a surprise, I figured maybe I could use this thread as a motivation to actually finish something for once.

...just yesterday I did a test fit... That's the elusive TWM B16/B18 DCOE manifold (brand friggin new, but been sitting on a shelf in my garage for the past 5-6 years) that I just pulled out of it's box this weekend, drilled a few extra holes in it, and well there you go. As said, angle is way off, but I'm working on that now.

Here's the outcome. ...still working on a way to get this proper angle figured out, but here's where I am so far...

EDIT: btw, for those that are about to give me a hard time for not at least cleaning up the motor, that's not the motor they're going to land on ultimately, but it is the original motor to the car (228K on it, and in pretty good shape if I don't say so myself.).

holly shit wow!!! thats pure sex!!

[lostforawhile]

This is sweet man, those things look crazy! Sounds like you have quite a project.

yea if i can ever get a junk motor to mock up everything on i can get busy on finishing them

[88LXi68]

wow mark...that actually looks good. now pull the engine and get it running!

[markmdz89hatch]

wow mark...that actually looks good. now pull the engine and get it running!

thanks Steve. hey, btw, thanks for all your help so far....

Beer and pizza on me...

[markmdz89hatch]

Ok, so a few vacuum questions now.

After seeing a post about it, and looking it up more, I'm leaning toward using a vacuum reserve canister for all my vac needs. The plan will be to tap each runner and dump them all into the canister.

Any objections to that?

Next, is identifying all my vacuum needs. What I've identified so far:

Brake Booster
Distributor
PCV

Anything else? Do I need all 3? The plan is to do a small vacuum manifold from the canister to deliver the vacuum.

Now's the time for all the DCOE guys to spill the beans the let me know all the troubles they've encountered, or even just good info for the swap/install.

Anyone got anything?

[cygnus x-1]

Good plan. Obviously you need the brake booster and vacuum advance. The PCV you wouldn't have to have but I personally think it's a good idea to keep the oil and crank case clean. You can put a restriction in the line to keep it from being so much of a vacuum leak if you want (PCV is really just a controlled vacuum leak). Also an extra catch can will help keep the oil out of the intake.

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Ok, so a few vacuum questions now.

After seeing a post about it, and looking it up more, I'm leaning toward using a vacuum reserve canister for all my vac needs. The plan will be to tap each runner and dump them all into the canister.

Any objections to that?

Next, is identifying all my vacuum needs. What I've identified so far:

Brake Booster
Distributor
PCV

Anything else? Do I need all 3? The plan is to do a small vacuum manifold from the canister to deliver the vacuum.

Now's the time for all the DCOE guys to spill the beans the let me know all the troubles they've encountered, or even just good info for the swap/install.

Anyone got anything?

[markmdz89hatch]

nice, I've been waiting for your response.

yeah, as for the catch can, I was thinking about that this morning on my way in to work. Are you suggesting an extra can (in addition to the one on the back of the block), or just replace that with a larger remote can?

I don't have any real good reason for it, but I would prefer to keep the block basically bare, and just mount everything remotely, like the vac can, and oil catch can, and I'm even considering an oil filter relocation kit (but most likely won't do that, as I don't want 9 million hoses hanging of the back of the motor either). For the sake of simplicity I would prefer to replace the stock can (more like box) with a remote can and call it a day.

As for restricting the vac pull from the pcv, as long as I'm pulling from the can, theoretically, the pull from each runner should all be equal, so a/f and velocity/pressure in the runners should all remain pretty much the same across all four right? That said, is it so much of a leak that it'll depleat the can and end up scavenging for vac with the stock sized lines? Isn't the PCV somewhat of a check-valve in it's own right as well?

edit: one more thing. (thinking recycling here) Can I re-use my a/c reserve can as a vac reserve can? By the looks of it, and concept, the vac can is nothing more then a sealed can that's capped and has a check-valve at the inlet so it doesn't push vac back up into the runners right? if that's the case, I should be able to use basically anything that's a sealed, clean, can that I could tap for inlet(check valve) and outlet (vac delivery).

[88LXi68]

thanks Steve. hey, btw, thanks for all your help so far....

Beer and pizza on me...

ouch...low blow but deserving. do you have the week off or something?

[markmdz89hatch]

nope. Been working after I put the kids to bed and staying out there 'til like 11:30-12:00, and got a ton of time in this past weekend.

[cygnus x-1]

nice, I've been waiting for your response.

yeah, as for the catch can, I was thinking about that this morning on my way in to work. Are you suggesting an extra can (in addition to the one on the back of the block), or just replace that with a larger remote can?

I was thinking of a second can, so it would go like this:

Block -> stock oil box -> PCV valve -> second catch can -> manifold vacuum port

A second can would just be to trap any remaining oil that gets past the oil box. I was surprised at how much oil gets through there and would end up in the manifold.

I don't have any real good reason for it, but I would prefer to keep the block basically bare, and just mount everything remotely, like the vac can, and oil catch can, and I'm even considering an oil filter relocation kit (but most likely won't do that, as I don't want 9 million hoses hanging of the back of the motor either). For the sake of simplicity I would prefer to replace the stock can (more like box) with a remote can and call it a day.

I had exactly the same thoughts during my rebuild a couple years ago. The problem is that the stock oil box has a hole that goes into the block itself, as well as a hose that goes down to the oil pan. So if you pull it off the block you would need to either plug the hole in the block and cap the port on the box, OR figure out a way to connect another hose between the block and oil box. And that's in addition to the hose to the oil pan. What you would end up with is more hoses than before, meaning more trouble. Honestly, the simplest thing to do would be to tear the foam cover off the box and replace the oil pan hose, o-ring between the box and block, and the rubber hose from the oil box to the manifold. This basically restores everything to stock condition and has the best chance of not leaking. One thing I've learned over the last few years is that more plumbing means more opportunity for leaks. Oil, water, air, whatever. So only add plumbing when it's really of benefit.
If you replace all the rubber parts associated with that oil box you shouldn't have any problem, and it really isn't in the way of anything.

A vac can you can put wherever. I had a remote oil filter for awhile but later removed it. It made oil changes easier but took up a lot of room. The stock filter location is annoying but not that bad relatively speaking. I've seen worse (my truck for one).

As for restricting the vac pull from the pcv, as long as I'm pulling from the can, theoretically, the pull from each runner should all be equal, so a/f and velocity/pressure in the runners should all remain pretty much the same across all four right? That said, is it so much of a leak that it'll depleat the can and end up scavenging for vac with the stock sized lines? Isn't the PCV somewhat of a check-valve in it's own right as well?

The issue is not about balance from runner to runner, but about letting air into the manifold that doesn't go through the carbs. Any air that gets into the manifold that doesn't go through the carbs is considered a vacuum leak. The PCV valve is a check valve in that it keeps intake backfires from going back into the crank case, but it also allows air from the crank case to go into the manifold in order to remove blow by gases. It won't be enough of a leak to deplete a vac can but it will affect the idle mixture a little. It's hard to say how much but if you tune the idle without the PCV connected you will have to retune it when you do connect it.

edit: one more thing. (thinking recycling here) Can I re-use my a/c reserve can as a vac reserve can? By the looks of it, and concept, the vac can is nothing more then a sealed can that's capped and has a check-valve at the inlet so it doesn't push vac back up into the runners right? if that's the case, I should be able to use basically anything that's a sealed, clean, can that I could tap for inlet(check valve) and outlet (vac delivery).

No check valves, except the standard one for the brake booster. Do you have any of the stock vac cans left? Any sealed container strong enough to withstand a vacuum would work. People have used PVC pipe capped on the ends, fuel filters, whatever. Basically the can just provides a buffer between any vacuum devices and the manifold.


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