HHO Gas Hybrid Accord

[cygnus x-1]

Wow, I've been missing all the fun!


I've done a bit of web research on this previously so maybe I can help clarify some things.

Alternators and electrical power:
The power output of an alternator is dependent on the load connected to it. Assuming an output voltage of 12V, a 12ohm resistor (or load) will draw 1 amp of current. E=IxR. Voltage = current x resistance. a 1 ohm resistor will draw 12 amps of current. The alternator will supply however much current the load requires until the maximum current output of the alternator is exceeded. At this point the voltage will start dropping. The mechanical load that an alternator puts on the engine will be roughly proportional to the output of the alternator. So if the total electrical load on the alternator is 746 Watts (1HP), the engine power needed to spin the alternator will be 746 Watts, plus whatever energy is lost due to mechanical friction internal to the alternator and resistance of the alternator windings.


HHO gas:
HHO gas is a mixture of Hydrogen (H2) and Oxygen (O2) with a molar ratio of 2:1. It's what you get when you electrolyze water. Nothing really special about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen


What it does (supposedly):
First of all, there is some confusion here as to what the purpose of the HHO is. IT IS NOT intended to be a gasoline/fuel replacement. You can use HHO directly as a combustion engine fuel but it is currently not feasible because it's expensive to create (energy wise) and difficult to store in sufficient quantity. The purpose of the HHO is to extend the lean burn capability of the gasoline air mixture that already goes to your engine. In theory this should allow for greater fuel economy and lower emissions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement


Whether or not this will actually work will depend on how much more efficient the engine can be made with lean burn. The efficiency improvement must save more energy than what would be required to create the HHO through electrolysis. According to the research referenced in the Wikipedia article this is at least theoretically possible.


C|

[Accordtheory]

Well Accordtheroy I try to be helpful in all your post. I never really liked you and by your responses using Cali logic,calling people fools and using the F-word I think your correct this post will get locked.


wp

Hey, he said "Call me a fool or not", go back and look at his post, so I called him a fool.
Cali logic? I live in south dakota.
And I just like th F-word, I guess.
I didn't mean to offend, you if you don't like me, that's fine. I seek to destroy bullshit and reveal the truth, if I offend people along the way, so be it. However, I do know you gained knowledge from reading my post where I quoted you.
So hate me or not, you still learned something. Isn't that why you post on tech forums in the first place? If you second guess what I said, go ahead, look it up. This isn't an ego contest to me, I do this shit for other people. Do I get anything out of this? No. Does anyone on this forum personally know me? No. Do I benefit from this in any way? Not other than to clarify my own thoughts on the subjects I post on. When I post, it's about cutting out the bullshit myths, misconceptions, lies, marketing bs, etc, in favor of what is really true, and what really works. I'm not going to post something if I am not already familiar with it or at least haven't looked it up on yahoo or wikipedia. And while I admit they might be offensive, I still put a lot of research and effort into the info in my posts.

So why don't you raise Your game up and just post more legit info yourself, instead of saying you "never really liked me", wtf.

[AccordB20A]

What it does (supposedly):
First of all, there is some confusion here as to what the purpose of the HHO is. IT IS NOT intended to be a gasoline/fuel replacement. You can use HHO directly as a combustion engine fuel but it is currently not feasible because it's expensive to create (energy wise) and difficult to store in sufficient quantity. The purpose of the HHO is to extend the lean burn capability of the gasoline air mixture that already goes to your engine. In theory this should allow for greater fuel economy and lower emissions.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement


Whether or not this will actually work will depend on how much more efficient the engine can be made with lean burn. The efficiency improvement must save more energy than what would be required to create the HHO through electrolysis. According to the research referenced in the Wikipedia article this is at least theoretically possible.


C|

about time someone told these people its real use

[Gemini2003]

Two things:

ONE:
I asked to be called a fool, so the fact two people did doesn't bother me.

TWO:

Wow, I've been missing all the fun!
What it does (supposedly):
IT IS NOT intended to be a gasoline/fuel replacement. You can use HHO directly as a combustion engine fuel but it is currently not feasible because it's expensive to create (energy wise) and difficult to store in sufficient quantity. The purpose of the HHO is to extend the lean burn capability of the gasoline air mixture that already goes to your engine. In theory this should allow for greater fuel economy and lower emissions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement

C|

This is exactly what I am trying to do. I'm very sorry if I have explained it wrong but that sums it up... I just want more efficiency.

[lostforawhile]

Wow, I've been missing all the fun!


I've done a bit of web research on this previously so maybe I can help clarify some things.

Alternators and electrical power:
The power output of an alternator is dependent on the load connected to it. Assuming an output voltage of 12V, a 12ohm resistor (or load) will draw 1 amp of current. E=IxR. Voltage = current x resistance. a 1 ohm resistor will draw 12 amps of current. The alternator will supply however much current the load requires until the maximum current output of the alternator is exceeded. At this point the voltage will start dropping. The mechanical load that an alternator puts on the engine will be roughly proportional to the output of the alternator. So if the total electrical load on the alternator is 746 Watts (1HP), the engine power needed to spin the alternator will be 746 Watts, plus whatever energy is lost due to mechanical friction internal to the alternator and resistance of the alternator windings.


HHO gas:
HHO gas is a mixture of Hydrogen (H2) and Oxygen (O2) with a molar ratio of 2:1. It's what you get when you electrolyze water. Nothing really special about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen


What it does (supposedly):
First of all, there is some confusion here as to what the purpose of the HHO is. IT IS NOT intended to be a gasoline/fuel replacement. You can use HHO directly as a combustion engine fuel but it is currently not feasible because it's expensive to create (energy wise) and difficult to store in sufficient quantity. The purpose of the HHO is to extend the lean burn capability of the gasoline air mixture that already goes to your engine. In theory this should allow for greater fuel economy and lower emissions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement


Whether or not this will actually work will depend on how much more efficient the engine can be made with lean burn. The efficiency improvement must save more energy than what would be required to create the HHO through electrolysis. According to the research referenced in the Wikipedia article this is at least theoretically possible.


C|

OK PEOPLE,THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HHO,the guy who tried to sell the water car made it up. and a bunch of people believed it. there is NO SUCH THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! when you run an electric current through water, you get two totally sepreate elements, hydrogen and oxygen. you don't get some magical gas caled hho, you get two different gasses. they do not combine with unicorn dust and become some magical thing. they become two differnet elements just like they do in the atmosphere. when you combine them together you get water. didn't anyone take science in school? this is very simple hho is a made up name to sell crap,thats it!! someone please dear god close this thread.

[Accordtheory]

. they do not combine with unicorn dust and become some magical thing.

Yeah, the educated person would have to do quite a few lines of unicorn dust before they'd buy into this bullshit..

As far as the increase in efficiency from running lean vs the energy expended to create the hydrogen to do so, it doesn't take much math to realize this won't work, people.
Every time you transfer energy, you lose some of it. Look at what you're doing here. Mechanical (crankshaft) to electrical (alternator) to chemical (splitting the h20) to combustion(at most 20% thermodynamic efficiency)<<<<<<than the what, 2% increase you'd get from adding the small % of "hho"?
Come on people, for fuck's sake!!!!!

[Accordtheory]

Hey, maybe we should start selling the unicorn dust on 3geez..that might actually sell, unlike my last turbo manifold..

[lostforawhile]

the closest thing you will get to this,is hondas new hydrogen car, it has an appliance like a furnace that goes in your garage, this creates hydrogen gas to fill the car, it is also designed to help power your home and heat water. it's already designed and tested and will be on the market soon.

[2ndGenGuy]

Ahaha this is one of the most epic threads ever. Why would any mod in their right mind want to delete this sort of entertainment?

[Ichiban]

Wow, using wasted power that your alternator doesn't create, to electrolyze water that you have to use fuel to carry around, into H2 and O2, in order to burn and recover only a percentage of the energy used to create it? Bullshit.

Also, the people that "destroyed their plans" because their water car was going to use up all the water on earth? Come on, people. When you combust H2, it reacts with O2 to become water again. In theory, complete combustion of hydrocarbons (gasoline) should produce CO2, and H20.

[lostforawhile]

Wow, using wasted power that your alternator doesn't create, to electrolyze water that you have to use fuel to carry around, into H2 and O2, in order to burn and recover only a percentage of the energy used to create it? Bullshit.

Also, the people that "destroyed their plans" because their water car was going to use up all the water on earth? Come on, people. When you combust H2, it reacts with O2 to become water again. In theory, complete combustion of hydrocarbons (gasoline) should produce CO2, and H20.

yea the new honda car appliance uses natural gas to get the hydrogen from. plus it powers your house,pretty cool huh?

[A18A]

people should instead find out ways to save money else where, like that thing that powers your house^ or whatever, and use the money you saved on petrol, you might be surprised how much extra mileage you get

[lostforawhile]

people should instead find out ways to save money else where, like that thing that powers your house^ or whatever, and use the money you saved on petrol, you might be surprised how much extra mileage you get

it powers your house plus creates hydrogen for your hydrogen powered honda and creates hot water. already for sale in japan

[cygnus x-1]

OK PEOPLE,THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HHO,the guy who tried to sell the water car made it up. and a bunch of people believed it. there is NO SUCH THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! when you run an electric current through water, you get two totally sepreate elements, hydrogen and oxygen. you don't get some magical gas caled hho, you get two different gasses. they do not combine with unicorn dust and become some magical thing. they become two differnet elements just like they do in the atmosphere. when you combine them together you get water. didn't anyone take science in school? this is very simple hho is a made up name to sell crap,thats it!! someone please dear god close this thread.

Who said it was anything other than a just mixture of gasses? You are absolutely correct. It is simply a mixture of hydrogen gas and oxygen gas in a 2:1 ratio. Nothing less and nothing more. The fact that someone made up a fancy name for it means nothing. You can call it whatever you want, "HHO", "Super Happy Fun Gas", or "a 2:1 molar mixture of hydrogen and oxygen". What does it matter?

And for the record, I know nothing about the water powered car. The name "HHO" may very well have been made up by the same person that made up the water powered car, but that doesn't mean anything. If it really bothers you I shall start calling it "a 2:1 molar mixture of hydrogen and oxygen".


C|

[cygnus x-1]

As far as the increase in efficiency from running lean vs the energy expended to create the hydrogen to do so, it doesn't take much math to realize this won't work, people.
Every time you transfer energy, you lose some of it. Look at what you're doing here. Mechanical (crankshaft) to electrical (alternator) to chemical (splitting the h20) to combustion(at most 20% thermodynamic efficiency)<<<<<<than the what, 2% increase you'd get from adding the small % of "hho"?
Come on people, for fuck's sake!!!!!

Good. This tells me that at least one person understands the concept and is thinking from a systems perspective. And this is the big question.

Will the efficiency improvement gained from being able to run very lean mixtures, offset the energy used to create the "2:1 molar mixture of hydrogen and oxygen"?

To me the math does not seem as simple as you make it out to be. Figuring out the energy needed for electrolysis is fairly straightforward. Some level of current draw at 12V gives the power requirement. Then divide by the efficiency of the alternator. Now we have crank power. As a starting point, say our electrolysis device draws 50 amps. At 14V that's 700 watts. 1HP is 746 watts, so lets just round up to there to be generous. A quick google search yielded a typical alternator efficiency of a little over 50%. So that would mean we need 2HP of crank power to run the electrolysis.

What I don't have a handle on is how much efficiency can be gained from introducing the gas mixture into the intake charge. As a guess, if it takes 20HP at the crank to cruise down the road, we would need to make up 2HP just to break even. That would be a 10% increase in efficiency, which sounds extreme to me.

However there are a lot of assumptions here that could be incorrect, so the answer is still not clear. My book on combustion engines (John Heywood, MIT) doesn't talk about hydrogen enrichment so I can't do any more than guess. It does however talk a lot about fuel consumption in relation to air/fuel mixture and combustion chamber design. I'm still reading this part.

C|

[cygnus x-1]

An interesting link, sort of tangentially related:

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/090203.html

C|

[OldSkoolA20accord]

is anyone going to run HHO in their accord or is this thread just a big ass waste of time.

[Accordtheory]

Cygnus, what are your thoughts on this quote from your link? "We are looking at putting up to 30% EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) back into the engine, which will easily compensate for the small amount of fuel we use to create the hydrogen in the first place."
See what I'm getting at? They just gave up the energy they would have gotten out of oxidizing that carbon in the chamber to run the reformer and oxidize only the H out of that HC (gasoline)? Then they're trying to make up for it by increasing the motor's dynamic CR with egr? If you have to "compensate for the small amount of fuel used"...makes me wonder if it wouldn't be more efficient, or as efficient, to just use the egr alone. ?
I don't buy this stuff really though. (I don't think you need ot inject H to be able to run lean) Honda had lean burn technology in the late 70's, it's about time to bring that shit back to the fullest. Endyn was working on it in the 80's more, now honda has the vtec-e motor, and people are turboing those on honda-tech. I think that with direct cylinder injection, oems will be able to do even more with this in the future. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to get the economy of a diesel out of a gasoline or similarly fueled motor, if you can get the dynamic compression up, then it should be possible.

[Gemini2003]

I AM.

I'm still working on the best design to create HHO gas. I've had 3 tries so far each creating more gas. My next attempt is going to be much better (I hope). I'm going to try to use welding electrodes to: A) reduce the amount of sediment in the water and b) Ease of construction, If I can create a device with a central negative rod surrounded by positive rods - replacement and maintenance will be easy.

The two questions that need to be answered are:

How much drain will this device actually cause on the motor in HP loss?

and how much leaner can we run the mixture of Gas with the HHO additive?

I hope to have answers for in the next couple weeks.


MODS: Please don't close this thread. The people do not believe that this is a possibility are the only ones wanting this to happen. I click here daily to see what I can learn from everyone.

[Ichiban]

Using H2 and 02 gas may or may not have it's performance or efficiency advantage, but one thing is for sure, using the vehicle power to produce a mobile source of these gases is stupid. First off, the gas engine producing the power is inefficient to begin with. Then you have the added mass of all the water and the electrodes, plus the storage containers. If you really wanted to make this work, park a big solar powered barge in the ocean off the Caribbean, bottle or pipeline the H2, let the O2 go to atmosphere, and sell alternative fuel to hippies and German zeppelins.

Putting this system on the vehicle is a waste of everything. If you're bent on making this work, use a solar or plug in electrolysis system at home to produce the gas, then carry in the vehicle only what's needed. Keep in mind, that a molar mixture (or stoichiometric, if you prefer that term) of combustible gas and oxygen, is an explosive. I think there are far more gains available from using higher compression and Ethanol.

[2ndGenGuy]

Cygnus, what are your thoughts on this quote from your link? "We are looking at putting up to 30% EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) back into the engine, which will easily compensate for the small amount of fuel we use to create the hydrogen in the first place."
See what I'm getting at? They just gave up the energy they would have gotten out of oxidizing that carbon in the chamber to run the reformer and oxidize only the H out of that HC (gasoline)? Then they're trying to make up for it by increasing the motor's dynamic CR with egr? If you have to "compensate for the small amount of fuel used"...makes me wonder if it wouldn't be more efficient, or as efficient, to just use the egr alone. ?
I don't buy this stuff really though. (I don't think you need ot inject H to be able to run lean) Honda had lean burn technology in the late 70's, it's about time to bring that shit back to the fullest. Endyn was working on it in the 80's more, now honda has the vtec-e motor, and people are turboing those on honda-tech. I think that with direct cylinder injection, oems will be able to do even more with this in the future. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to get the economy of a diesel out of a gasoline or similarly fueled motor, if you can get the dynamic compression up, then it should be possible.

Isn't that the idea behind Fords new EcoBoost motors? I think GM is working on something similar... even talks of putting a direct injection turbo 4 in the new Camaro.

[Ichiban]

I think that with direct cylinder injection, oems will be able to do even more with this in the future. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to get the economy of a diesel out of a gasoline or similarly fueled motor, if you can get the dynamic compression up, then it should be possible.

I missed this the first time I read your post. Have you done any reading on HCCI gasoline engines? (homogeneous charge compression ignition)

Major research labs (not hicks selling BS) have been looking into this for some time now. Basically involves using some (but not all) principles of diesel engine combustion to improve the efficiency of gasoline engines, including higher compression.

[lostforawhile]

I AM.

I'm still working on the best design to create HHO gas. I've had 3 tries so far each creating more gas. My next attempt is going to be much better (I hope). I'm going to try to use welding electrodes to: A) reduce the amount of sediment in the water and b) Ease of construction, If I can create a device with a central negative rod surrounded by positive rods - replacement and maintenance will be easy.

The two questions that need to be answered are:

How much drain will this device actually cause on the motor in HP loss?

and how much leaner can we run the mixture of Gas with the HHO additive?

I hope to have answers for in the next couple weeks.


MODS: Please don't close this thread. The people do not believe that this is a possibility are the only ones wanting this to happen. I click here daily to see what I can learn from everyone.

[lostforawhile]

my favorite finding from another forum

ridgeracer
Junior Member

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: st peter, MN
Posts: 54


Default fart powered car
what if when you wanted to refuel you went to a drive through mexican place (you could still call em 'gas stations'!) and filled up on beans or whatever, and had something rigged up into the seat that inducted your farts as you ripped them, and converted it into useable energy via compression/detonation or something? sure it would be slow- but while you weren't farting you would be pedaling or something. what if.
__________________
2005 zx3 black, new antenna, painted interior a bit, waiting on turbo/na...

with all the BS in this thread i think a methane powered car might be a good idea.
would this be BBT gas? burrito2 buritto2 taco1?

[Ichiban]

my favorite finding from another forum


with all the BS in this thread i think a methane powered car might be a good idea.

What are you talking about?