HHO Gas Hybrid Accord

[lostforawhile]

What are you talking about?

if you have to ask....well never mind

[cygnus x-1]

with all the BS in this thread i think a methane powered car might be a good idea.
would this be BBT gas? burrito2 buritto2 taco1?

I have a friend who could power the entire US from his ass. It's pretty scary.

Honda already has a methane car though.

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/


C|

[cygnus x-1]

Cygnus, what are your thoughts on this quote from your link? "We are looking at putting up to 30% EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) back into the engine, which will easily compensate for the small amount of fuel we use to create the hydrogen in the first place."
See what I'm getting at? They just gave up the energy they would have gotten out of oxidizing that carbon in the chamber to run the reformer and oxidize only the H out of that HC (gasoline)? Then they're trying to make up for it by increasing the motor's dynamic CR with egr? If you have to "compensate for the small amount of fuel used"...makes me wonder if it wouldn't be more efficient, or as efficient, to just use the egr alone. ?

Here is a quote from the book I mentioned (Internal combustion Engine Fundamentals; John Heywood):

“The effect of exhaust gas recycle on engine performance and efficiency, for mixture with φ <= 1 [lean of stoichiometric], is similar to the addition of excess air. Both EGR and excess air dilute the unburned mixture… …At constant burn duration, BSFC and exhaust temperature decrease with increasing EGR… …This improvement in fuel consumption with increasing EGR is due to three factors: (1) reduced pumping work as EGR is increased at constant brake load (fuel and air flows remain almost constant; hence intake pressure increases); (2) reduced heat loss to the walls because the burned gas temperature is decreased significantly; and (3) a reduction in the degree of dissociation in the high-temperature burned gases which allows more of the fuel’s chemical energy to be converted to sensible energy near TDC. The first two of these are comparable in magnitude and each is about twice as important as the third… …Though addition of EGR lengthens both the flame development and propagation processes (as indicated by the increasing MBT [Maximum brake torque] spark advance requirement with increasing EGR), the faster-burning [combustion] chamber follows the anticipated pattern of significant BSFC reductions until, at about 20 percent EGR, the combustion quality deteriorates. For the slower-burning chamber, the tolerance to dilution with EGR is much less.”


So what it looks like to me is that they are using hydrogen enrichment to increase how much EGR they can use, thereby decreasing BSFC. My guess as to why they are using exhaust gas for dilution instead of just air is that the exhaust gas limits the excess O2 for further reduction of NOx emissions. I thought that was already inherent with lean burn due to the reduced combustion temperatures, but maybe not enough. IDK.
So according to them, the fuel/energy cost associated with the hydrogen enrichment is more than offset by how much they can extend EGR usage.

I don't buy this stuff really though. (I don't think you need ot inject H to be able to run lean) Honda had lean burn technology in the late 70's, it's about time to bring that shit back to the fullest. Endyn was working on it in the 80's more, now honda has the vtec-e motor, and people are turboing those on honda-tech. I think that with direct cylinder injection, oems will be able to do even more with this in the future. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to get the economy of a diesel out of a gasoline or similarly fueled motor, if you can get the dynamic compression up, then it should be possible.

Not familiar with the VTEC-e. How lean does it run? There is also the i-VTEC I. It supposedly ran at an incredible 65:1 AFR. Check this out:
http://world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2003-4031127a/

There was also something I ran across just few weeks ago about an improved ignition system that can ignite super lean mixtures:
http://www.leanburnignition.com/index.htm

And I totally agree about the future of lean burn engines. The emissions reduction measures put in place in the '80s forced automakers to design engines that primarily run at stoich in order to make the catalytic converters function correctly. What if instead they would have pursued lean burn and been able to reduce fuel consumption AND emissions? And wouldn't reduction in fuel usage lower total emissions just by itself?
Much like the healthcare industry, it seems progress in the auto industry is slowed by crappy legislation.


Well, I digress. Mostly just for my own curiosity I may try the HHO thing and see what happens. I've determined that my engine starts to lean surge at around 16:1 AFR. Would be interesting to see if it could run leaner with hydrogen enrichment.

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[2oodoor]

Megaton water asteriods ! is that where ass water comes from? It does seem to appear from "thin air"
Accord Theory tootin his unicorn dust ! wtf I have been missing the fun here too! you take paypal?


seriousley, ah hem .. Gemini is just opening the conversation, and has humbled himself to all. Nothing wrong here. We should be throwing these ideas around and be open to critical observations, it is a tech forum like AT says. Some of the best inventions and discoveries were made by accident (not all without accidents) while looking for something else.

There is an ongoing article (duplicated umteen times of course) somewhere on the net, about this other conversion you get from materials available at a hardware store. I "hear" of even local folks here doing it on thier civics and getting up to 60 mpg. It is also a hydrogen conversion of some sort.

[lostforawhile]

i'm waiting for someone to mention the UFO powered cars, yes people believe they are real.

[88Accord-DX]

I've been looking at a few sites about hydrogen used in cars. Some good reading on the subject. Here are the links.



http://waterpoweredcar.com/inventors.html

http://hydrogengarage.com/education.html

[lostforawhile]

[AccordB20A]

lol.

HHO or whatver u call it is flammable as fuck i can tell u that lol as we has discovered lol

[Gemini2003]

LOL at AccordB20A

[2oodoor]

lol.

HHO or whatver u call it is flammable as fuck i can tell u that lol as we has discovered lol

[cygnus x-1]

I've been looking at a few sites about hydrogen used in cars. Some good reading on the subject. Here are the links.

http://waterpoweredcar.com/inventors.html

http://hydrogengarage.com/education.html

I spent an hour or so browsing through these and unfortunately while they do seem interesting, most of it is nonsense. The bottom line is that water is not a fuel. Hydrogen can be used as an energy carrier but the energy used to create it must come from somewhere. Also interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car


However, there may still be some possibility for using hydrogen as an additive to achieve small improvements in fuel efficiency for gasoline engines. If it works this would not violate any laws of physics because the gasoline is still the ultimate fuel source. All it would be doing is allowing the engine to make a little better use of the energy that is already stored in the gasoline.


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[Blkblurr]

Ok. I'm going to weigh in on this topic. I have not built one of these yet but I will. The concept for this is not creating more energy than you put into it. It is about the chemical reaction that the HHO has with burning gasoline. Essentially the effect that oxygen has on complete burn of the fuel as well as the effect the hydrogen has with the fuel during the same process. It would be a similar concept to adding octane boosters to retard combustion and reduce pinging. It a chemical reation the HHO generator produces.You also get a small amount of water produced in the combustion that very slightly cools the cylinder and burn reaction just after detonation. You cannot run the car on water itself. This process produces too small an amount of HHO. I suspect it works as mentioned as I have done some research on it but many factors come into play. The age of the car, the type of fuel to air mixing system, (ie) carb vs injection, the type of control via computor the car has. The more efficient the car already is the less impact the HHO generator will have. I know that one of the major three car companies is testing this now so it must have some merit. I have a set of plans to build this and a book on making it work and tweaking your car to get more milage out of it etc. Time will tell and I will post my results once I build it. I expect it will take me awhile before I get to it but hopefully I can provide some good information. By the way, producing hydrogen for car use does not delplete the water on earth as it returns to water when burned. No loss of water in any way. It is mearely a perfect energy transfer.

[OldSkoolA20accord]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Brown...QQcmdZViewItem

here is a generator thing i found when i was looking at parts for my blaster.

[AccordB20A]

Ok. I'm going to weigh in on this topic. I have not built one of these yet but I will. The concept for this is not creating more energy than you put into it. It is about the chemical reaction that the HHO has with burning gasoline. Essentially the effect that oxygen has on complete burn of the fuel as well as the effect the hydrogen has with the fuel during the same process. It would be a similar concept to adding octane boosters to retard combustion and reduce pinging. It a chemical reation the HHO generator produces.You also get a small amount of water produced in the combustion that very slightly cools the cylinder and burn reaction just after detonation. You cannot run the car on water itself. This process produces too small an amount of HHO. I suspect it works as mentioned as I have done some research on it but many factors come into play. The age of the car, the type of fuel to air mixing system, (ie) carb vs injection, the type of control via computor the car has. The more efficient the car already is the less impact the HHO generator will have. I know that one of the major three car companies is testing this now so it must have some merit. I have a set of plans to build this and a book on making it work and tweaking your car to get more milage out of it etc. Time will tell and I will post my results once I build it. I expect it will take me awhile before I get to it but hopefully I can provide some good information. By the way, producing hydrogen for car use does not delplete the water on earth as it returns to water when burned. No loss of water in any way. It is mearely a perfect energy transfer.

one of the best posts in this thread right there

[Oldblueaccord]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen

Remember the term "limelight" I never new it came from this gas. I have been reading about its uses. They do glass polishing with it.


wp

[mushroom_toy]

I was gonna say some funny remark about methane, but yal already mentioned using it. Damn lol. Power your car with your shit...now thats what I call recycling.

Haha im jk this thread is a boring read lol im out.

[AccordB20A]

well i know i wouldnt mind a fart powered car. have a pipe on every seat and when someone lets go it sucks it into the motor

[lostforawhile]

how about a bullshit powered car? than it can run off of this thread,and some of the other ones off of the internet. like some of the nuts say, the laws are physics are made up to prevent our theories from working

[2oodoor]

how about a car powered car, just push or pull one around with the other, FREE ENERGY for the coaster... thats it! Im going to the patent office TONIGHT

[2oodoor]

^^ phhhht shit that would be a train, dumb ideas. trains... hmph turning diesel energy to electric power, one source feeding another and wasting the diesel energy.

[cygnus x-1]

That's the cool thing about electric motors. They can pull against a dead load. Try getting an 8000 ton train moving with a mechanical clutch.

C|

[Oldblueaccord]

That and regenitive braking.

Still wondering if this works and how? I read alot about it.



wp

[2oodoor]

It does work, EZGO golf carts have been using it for long time.

[lostforawhile]

yea the braking does work, all electric or hybrid cars use it. you are recovering some of the energy of the moving car,and turning it back into electricity instead of wasting it as heat in the brakes. as fas as the diesel trains, they are very efficient, all diesel engine trains use electric traction motors,these are powered by diesel generators on the train. this is a much more efficient process then direct driving with the diesel. most ships also use this same technology. the electric motor itself is close to 100 percent efficient,other then energy lost as heat.

[2oodoor]

guess I should have put up sarcasm warning