HHO Gas Hybrid Accord

[Gemini2003]

I feel this topic needs a whole new thread:

HHO Hybrid conversion

Browns Gas or alternately known as HHO Gas is a realistic possibility for anyone's car!

It is TRUE that you cannot get more out energy out of something then you put in.

What I'm suggesting is a HHO/Normal gas HYBRID vehicle.

Everyone always says "it will never work" or "it takes more to makes browns gas then you get out of it"

I'm here to clarify one thing: I'm not suggesting getting something from nothing.

I'm suggesting using the excess power your car is creating every second and putting it to a GREAT use.

Our alternators are creating electricity every second. Not all of this electricity goes to use (especially if your not running a stereo system) or else we would not be able to charge our batteries... right?

SO...

Why not use some of our additional electricity to split Hydrogen and Oxygen from water? With the use of a HHO Fuel Cell you can create HHO gas on demand. Meaning that you do not need to install a tank to store this HHO gas.. Thus making it fairly safe to have in your vehicle. Once HHO gas combusts it turns back into Pure Water!

The process of making an HHO Fuel Cell is EASY. You can make a HHO fuel cell from items in your house! (I HAVE done this). In my first small scale test I used: a 1.5 liter Juice container (hard plastic), two nails (stainless steel), Two 4 foot lengths of wire (one for positive one for negative), a 12v car battery, some baking soda, a tube of silicone and a condom.

I put the nails in either side of the juice container so that the tips of the nails where almost touching (about 5 mm apart). Then I hooked the positive wire to one nail and the negative wire to the other nail (now the nails are Electrodes). I used silicone to seal the nail holes so that they would not leak. I then filled the juice container with tap water till about 2" above the nails. I then added the baking soda to the water (as an electrolyte). Next I put the condom on the top of the container (to see if I was generating any gas, obviously you can use a balloon but I only had jimmy hats lol).

After all that I connected the 12V Car battery and TADA! Bubbles started to form (and rise) on the negative and positive electrodes (hydrogen and oxygen) and then release to the top of the container...as soon as they hit the top of the water the Hydrogen and Oxygen combine (I'm not sure the type of mixture that's called) and the result is HHO gas.

This was my first attempt at creating a HHO fuel cell. It worked... but it didn't create very much gas at all... This is because I used nails and they have very little surface area. My other experiments used a larger surface area and yielded much more gas per minute.

Once you have created your HHO fuel cell you can then simply pipe the HHO gas into the clean air side of your air filter... thus going directly into your fuel/air mixture.

This will increase your gas mileage theoretically (I say theoretically as I have NOT tried this yet attached to my car yet) as the HHO will help fully complete the burn of the fossil fuel (regular gas) and the resulting emissions are substantially less.

I have seen reports of 20%-50% Fuel economy increase !!!!! and that is why I'm trying these experiments.... I'm up to my 3rd Experiment now... I've only been at it for a week and a bit.

I have a few concerns about rust... But I also know that propane cars have water coming out of their exhaust pips... so I don't know how long it would take for rust to effect the engine (if it even would)... I'm thinking the combusted hho would flow right into and out of the exhaust pipe...

[Gemini2003]

this doesn't work, the only really good fuel cell vehicle right now is a honda,but you have to fill it up with hydrogen. they spent over a billion developing the car,so i don't think some junkyard parts are going to do the trick. if you want to run it for almost nothing, put in a diesel engine and set it to run on used cooking oil,this has been done and proven.

all right heres some quotes from the idiot, if you don't think he's nuts,look at the part about the "megaton" water asteroids

Dear [name withheld],

The following is my opinion, and I recognize that others may think differently.

This potential problem of running cars on water and using so much water that it destroys the atmosphere and probably all life of Earth has been considered for over 30 years now.

In 1970, a company I consulted for in Canada invented a simple catalytic device to break water into hydrogen and oxygen so that it could be burned. After a great deal of thought, we destroyed the plans, thinking in the same way as some of you that it would eventually use up the world's supply of water and harm or destroy the Earth.

However, in recent times I have changed my mind, and here is why.

Temporary Measures

Foremost, the idea of running gasoline engines on water would only be used as a temporary measure and as a stepping-stone to far better technologies, which already exist and which would quickly replace this idea of running cars on water.

But until the strangle-hold of the oil companies is broken, these higher technologies will never come out, and the use of petroleum will continue. This is the consensus of the scientists that I have spoken with. What I have heard around the world is: "If we use the water car technology, this will open the way to even simpler and greater technologies that are clean and harmless."

Water Asteroids

Further, it has been found that the Earth's water supply is not static, as most of us have believed. The amount of water on Earth is increasing every day. In fact, it has been discovered in the last few years that vast amounts of water are daily arriving from space in the form of water asteroids! These huge, megaton water asteroids hit the upper atmosphere, immediately vaporize, and eventually settle down to Earth.

[Gemini2003]

I don't care about this guy!

Look up HHO gas in YouTube, or Browns gas in youtube or water hybrid in you tube.

This DOES work. I'm far from the only one doing this.

PLEASE if anyone is going to comment please think about it first and tell me WHY it doesn't work.

[Gemini2003]

becaue it's simple physics, it takes so much energy to convert to hydrogen, it's not worth it. you could do it but why? and your alternator is not going to have the energy to do this. as was as the water in the engine crap what a crock of shit

[Gemini2003]

We've got additonal power to burn in our cars!

Why not use the additional electricity (that would normally goto WASTE) to create HHO gas?

And why would you do this? To save money!!

Give me another week or so and I'll have some numbers to work with including the Amperage draw to power different Cells

[2ndGenGuy]

I'm not sure I see how the alternator is generating electricity that is going to waste. The alternator only outputs the amount of power based on the load being put on it. It's not sitting there generating electricity that is going to waste.

If you spin an alternator, and have no electrical load put on it (like a light) I'm pretty sure it's not going to do anything. No electricity generated, none wasted. The additional load placed on the alternator by the electrolysis machine will cause resistance on the alternator pulley and cause extra load on the engine.

The question is, is there enough energy in the "HHO" produced over time to help the engine overcome the extra load that the electrolysis cells, or whatever they are, put on the alternator. And is it going to be worth the cost of blowing up an alternator with all that load on it every year or so and taking the time to replace it?

Also WTF is HHO? Two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen? Last I checked that was H2O or water.



See... H H O. What's the difference? Why would you separate oxygen and hydrogen, and then recombine the hydrogen and oxygen in the air and get anything different? That's one of the reasons I call BS on this stuff, any time there are big catch words, or abbreviations that have absolutely no meaning...

And water in your tailpipe is normal on any car. It's just condensation building up in the pipes from the heating and cooling. That's why they say that you should get your car out once in a while and let it warm up to get the moisture out of everything. It keeps the exhaust from rusting.

[Gemini2003]

I wish i was better at science! I'm just an amature and don't know much about the why two atoms tie together....

I had the understanding that it was some kind of nuclear bond that is broken with the process of electrolysis.

Maybe this will help?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water

If you spin an alternator, and have no electrical load put on it (like a light) I'm pretty sure it's not going to do anything. No electricity generated, none wasted. The additional load placed on the alternator by the electrolysis machine will cause resistance on the alternator pulley and cause extra load on the engine.

The question is, is there enough energy in the "HHO" produced over time to help the engine overcome the extra load that the electrolysis cells, or whatever they are, put on the alternator. And is it going to be worth the cost of blowing up an alternator with all that load on it every year or so and taking the time to replace it?

And that's what I'm trying to figure out with my experiments... Can I generate enough HHO to actually save money?

I'm trying many different designs to see what the output of Gas will be.

[lostforawhile]

this has been tested and found not to work, it takes more then twice the energy to produce the hydrogen as what it creates. they build some little one person car one time,but it needed a gas generaior to create the power to make the hydrogen.

[lostforawhile]

and please don't create a new thread out of quotes from the old thread, you don't need two identical threads.

[Gemini2003]

I was putting the past conversation (from the Convert you car to water thread) into this thread as a conversation starter ... but thanks

Can you please tell me how to find those results? I would like to read more.

[AccordB20A]

me and alex (3gcvc) have allready looked into this. Bought a few jars with lids and are going to give it a go.
Aparently you need to be able to tune your car. make the mixture leaner. and this gas will aparently make the mixture cooler so you can run leaner mixtures and therefore save gas. providing it doesnt suck too much power and use more than its making. either way we are trying it out and seeing if it will work

[2ndGenGuy]

Nothing wrong with giving it a try. I mean hell, it's all really a learning experience just like anything else. Even thought it probably won't work, doesn't seem like a whole lot of money invested into it, unless you really start building huge electrolysis machines in the back of your car.

I personally don't think that 12volts and 60-90 amps, or whatever these cars are capable of generating are enough to generate a good supply of hydrogen from water.

No doubt there's SOME grounding in science in this, but I do believe that people have been trying to get fuel from water for the last 100 years, and have been largely unsuccessful. I think this hype has been mostly generated by the recent increase in the price of oil.

If there is any way to get power from water, you should check out Crower's Six-Stroke engine. Basically an added steam stroke into the normal 4 stroke engine cycle. Water is injected into the combustion chamber, and the water turns to steam due to the extreme temperatures. The water cools the engine AND adds power via steam. I imagine it's got some torque addition potential as well as reducing the complexity of the cooling system and recuding the usage of fuel for the same amount of power. Basically it's reusing wasted heat energy.

And... LOL @ Water Asteroids

[A18A]

I didn't read much of the thread, but what if you just run it off a spare battery, that you just charge every now, that way you dont drain the cars power.. and worst that happens if you dont charge it is you return to stock mileage, or if you're gonna run lean like accordb20a said, melt your pistons

[Gemini2003]

I just ran my third test.

Not sufficient gas production...yet...

I'm going to adjust the amount of electrolyte (baking soda in this case) in the water. Add more to hopefully get more of a result.

For my third experiment I've used 4 stainless steel plates with about 2" square of surface area a piece (due to poor design). They are spaced about 2-3 mm apart. I'm using a Rubbermaid container with about a 2 liter capacity. I used about a tablespoon worth of baking soda.

2 Tablespoons is next. Probably in an hour or so is when I'll try.


It's good to hear there are more people willing to give this a shot! All I suggest is if at first you don't succeed try and try again... already with my third design I'm getting more gas production. Even if this doesn't work i'm into it for less then $50 :-)

My friend has also done this. His take was using Welding electrodes... thick one for the positive surrounded by smaller electrodes for the negatives. I've bought some Welding electrodes and I'm going to try his design as well.

I didn't read much of the thread, but what if you just run it off a spare battery, that you just charge every now, that way you dont drain the cars power.. and worst that happens if you dont charge it is you return to stock mileage, or if you're gonna run lean like accordb20a said, melt your pistons

I don't know what kind of drain on the battery I'm experiencing yet... I don't have a multimeter... but I'll be borrowing one soon to work out some numbers.

me and Alex (3gcvc) have already looked into this. Bought a few jars with lids and are going to give it a go.
Apparently you need to be able to tune your car. make the mixture leaner. and this gas will apparently make the mixture cooler so you can run leaner mixtures and therefore save gas. providing it doesn't suck too much power and use more than its making. either way we are trying it out and seeing if it will work

I'm inclined to agree. Cars that have more tuning ability will get better results from this setup. But even are cars will benefit. As long as we can lean out the fuel mixture we should be good :-)

[Vanilla Sky]

The biggest problem is that an alternator doesn't produce any "extra" or "wasted" energy. If it did, you'd have an overcharged battery spewing all over your engine bay.

The conversions don't work out. This is free energy, perpetual motion. You'd never produce more fuel than needed, ever, period. Even if there is a very good energy conversion rate, using your charging system to produce your fuel will never be able to keep up.

If you could pressurize and store the HHO, then you're on to something. You'd have to produce and store your HHO to be loaded onto your car.

[Gemini2003]

I'm not really suggesting free energy, again I'm an armature at this.... but: Why if I can run my 2000 watt stereo system for hours on end in my car and not notice a fuel economy hit? and if that's the case why not put that power into this electrolysis unit and gain fuel economy? and really I'm only talking a 20%-40% at most.

[Vanilla Sky]

How much of the time are you actually producing that much wattage? Run a sine wave for an hour and come back and let me know what kind of strain that puts on your system, and in turn, how much it affects your fuel economy.

The higher load you're applying to an amp (and in turn, the more energy you're producing), the harder it is to turn your alternator. That takes more horsepower to overcome, so you end up losing fuel economy. That's a big part of why we don't have electric water pumps, AC compressors, and why electric power steering pumps are just now being implemented.

Energy can not be made, only changed from one state to another. Changing states requires energy itself.

[Gemini2003]

The higher load you're applying to an amp (and in turn, the more energy you're producing), the harder it is to turn your alternator. That takes more horsepower to overcome, so you end up losing fuel economy. That's a big part of why we don't have electric water pumps, AC compressors, and why electric power steering pumps are just now being implemented.

I agree but electric water pumps, AC compressors, and electric power steering pumps don't contribute to the burning of fuel in your motor. Perhaps the Hydrogen added to the combustion gives a bigger bang and more power? or if not more power then maybe the same power but using 20-30% less gasoline? Thus improving the gasoline fuel economy and improving toxic emissions.


What amperage in your opinion would be an acceptable load (is that the correct terminology?) on your motor to gain 20% increase in fuel economy?

If I could loose 10-15 HP out of my motor to gain 30% even 20% fuel economy I probably would do it :-)

[lostforawhile]

How much of the time are you actually producing that much wattage? Run a sine wave for an hour and come back and let me know what kind of strain that puts on your system, and in turn, how much it affects your fuel economy.

The higher load you're applying to an amp (and in turn, the more energy you're producing), the harder it is to turn your alternator. That takes more horsepower to overcome, so you end up losing fuel economy. That's a big part of why we don't have electric water pumps, AC compressors, and why electric power steering pumps are just now being implemented.

Energy can not be made, only changed from one state to another. Changing states requires energy itself.

He doesn't understand that concept, laws of physics don't fit his theory so he ignores them. don't even bother trying to explain it to him

[lostforawhile]

I will try to explain this to him one more time, you can not create energy. the energy that is stored in the hydrogen you create required energy to break it down, the alternator would have to have worked harder to produce more current to break down the water,this uses more fuel which is more energy,this also creates more heat,which is more lost energy, then you have the weight of the water which the engine has to work harder to move around, mores lost energy in work and in heat wasted. you CANNOT take the energy of the fuel and use it to produce energy in a different form, and end up with a net gain. energy is lost in the transfer from one form to another,also a lot of heat energy is lost converting the water to it's components, in the case of a fuel cell as in a spacecraft this heat would be used in the craft. but not in a car. you cannot get more energy then you started with, this myth is also prevelant about electric cars, oh free cars no emissions,where do you think the electricity comes from? energy doesn't just appear it's transferred

[lostforawhile]

I agree but electric water pumps, AC compressors, and electric power steering pumps don't contribute to the burning of fuel in your motor. Perhaps the Hydrogen added to the combustion gives a bigger bang and more power? or if not more power then maybe the same power but using 20-30% less gasoline? Thus improving the gasoline fuel economy and improving toxic emissions.


What amperage in your opinion would be an acceptable load (is that the correct terminology?) on your motor to gain 20% increase in fuel economy?

If I could loose 10-15 HP out of my motor to gain 30% even 20% fuel economy I probably would do it :-)

anything electric on the motor causes the engine to work harder and burn more fuel,theres no free gain. the field current in the alternator increases making it harder and harder to turn as it produces more energy. this takes more power and fuel from the engine. it takes opposing magnetic forces to create electricity. this takes energy.i explained this before you cannot create a net gain from an energy source. yo cannot produce more energy then you started with,.

[Gemini2003]

I guess I'm just going to have to try it. I understand what your trying to say to me but I need to try it before i can believe anything. I just need to. Call me a fool or not a few more experiments and we will see.

[lostforawhile]

TerraPass blog
Does the “water-powered car” really work?
Adam Stein
Yes, but the water has to come from unicorn tears.
by Adam Stein – July 8, 2008



Unsurprisingly, inevitably, rising gas prices have brought increased interest in the water-powered car. Is there really a simple technology that can dramatically boost the efficiency of conventional cars or, better yet, allow you to run your car entirely on tap water?

No. No, there is not.

I don’t want to belabor this topic,1 and as it happens, the available information about various water-powered car schemes is scant enough that they’re generally hard to debunk fully. A couple of points do bear mentioning, though:

* Water is not a fuel.2 And not just because we aren’t clever enough to turn it into one. Water simply doesn’t carry chemical energy in the way that gasoline does. Consider: when you touch a match to water, it fails to explode. You can drink all the water you want without gaining weight.3 This isn’t a technology issue, it’s just a fundamental property of water.4
* Some of the so-called “water-powered” cars are simply cheating: they use another fuel that releases energy upon contact with water. Or they use a charged battery as an energy input. It is accurate to say that such cars do not run on gasoline. It is inaccurate to say that such cars are “powered” by water. Invariably, whatever it is they are really running on is expensive and/or hard to come by. (If you’re interested in learning more about the role that water can play in the energy cycle, check out our toy fuel cell cars.)
* The water-powered car kits commonly advertised on the internet claim to use water to boost the efficiency of a conventional gasoline engine. This isn’t an inherently crackpot notion, and in fact a quick search turns up some non-crazy people who have done research suggesting that electrolyzed water can improve the performance of internal combustion engines. The problem is that the web sites selling the car kits generally are completely crackpot, offering up a stew of conspiracy theory, outlandish claims, and typographical errors that fairly screams scam.

Even if you’re not hep to the science — and frankly, I’m not sure it’s even possible to untangle the technical claims being made on these web sites — a little common sense does go a long way. Some questions to ponder the next time some asks for your credit card number:

* Does it sound too good to be true? Put another way, why isn’t everyone in the world doing it already? Why doesn’t the military run its Humvees on “HHO gas”? Why hasn’t Detroit blown away those pesky CAFE standards with a water-powered SUV?
* Is there an elaborate conspiracy theory involved? Of course there is! The reason that water-powered cars haven’t taken over our roadways is that the inventor, Stan Meyer, was killed by winged monkeys in 1998.5 Although authorities refused to pursue an investigation, security camera footage revealed a shirtless Dick Cheney fleeing the scene. Here’s the thing, though: except in bad movies, you can’t derail a technology by killing its inventor, particularly a technology that is described in great detail on the world wide web.
* Do the claims involve pseudoscientific jargon? Like HHO gas, perhaps?
* Are there any credible companies or research organizations touting the technology? When Google funds a company building water-powered cars, perhaps we can start to get excited about the prospect of filling up at the tap.

Footnotes

1. But inevitably I will.
2. I’m setting aside any consideration of nuclear fusion, for the simple reason that such technology doesn’t presently exist. Maybe in a hundred years or so I’ll have to update this post.
3. Well, you’ll gain water weight, at least until your kidneys are able to catch up with your mouth.
4. Consider that water is actually a waste product from the burning of other types of fuels. Claiming to run a car on water is a bit like claiming to have invented a car that can run on dead batteries. It just doesn’t make sense.
5. Actually, Stan died in 1998 of an aneurysm, only a few years after being convicted of “gross and egregious fraud” for making false claims about…water-powered cars.

[AccordB20A]

it doesnt take much power. It sure as isnt going to draw 60 amps. more like 5amps not even that.
using a certain grade stainless wire anyways. I understand it works as an addictive to the existing air/fuel mixture. it will make the fuel burn more efficiently. i read that you let the gas flow into your intake it will make the combustion in the clinder more complete. and u can run a leaner mixture because of this.

but no one i know can confirm this. its what i have only read. a mate with some scientific background seems to think it will work. There is no way that you car will run purely off it, but its only meant to be an additive to give you a few more MPG

Ill believe this works when i see it. thats why we are going to give it a go. with the fuel prices in NZ i need something to make my gas last longer. Hope it works ha

[lostforawhile]

it doesnt take much power. It sure as isnt going to draw 60 amps. more like 5amps not even that.
using a certain grade stainless wire anyways. I understand it works as an addictive to the existing air/fuel mixture. it will make the fuel burn more efficiently. i read that you let the gas flow into your intake it will make the combustion in the clinder more complete. and u can run a leaner mixture because of this.

but no one i know can confirm this. its what i have only read. a mate with some scientific background seems to think it will work. There is no way that you car will run purely off it, but its only meant to be an additive to give you a few more MPG

Ill believe this works when i see it. thats why we are going to give it a go. with the fuel prices in NZ i need something to make my gas last longer. Hope it works ha

but any current you draw makes the alternator work harder,which takes more fuel and wasted more energy as heat. you also lose a lot of heat and energy converting to another form of energy,this is called conversion loss. you cannot get a net gain because of these losses. any change of energy from one state to another uses energy. it' s the reason perpetual motion doesn't work, you always have losses no matter what. the losses will cancel any gains in the engine.