EGR Lift Sensor (Exhaust Gas Recirculation)

[ecogabriel]

Yes i have 8-9 in hg at CVC valve and my hoses are connected like you stated. The air chamber kinda seem plugged up, I mean air didnt pass through it real easy or alot but it did pass through it. None of the other valves seem to activate. the only one is the ignition control solenoid when you rev the engine.

If you connect a vacuum gauge in the connection that goes to the EGR solenoid and keep the other that goes to the EGR valve connected to the air chamber, how much vacuum did you see?
It may be possible for that chamber to plug up especially if #17 is not connected to the air pipe; unfiltered air (and dirt) would get there as a result.

EDIT: if yours is a stick, then there are three solenoids in the black box.
One: the EGR valve solenoid (cylinder-like, metallic)
Two: the cold advance solenoid (the one you mentioned working)
Three: the A/C idle booster solenoid (you have A/C right?)

Two and Three are identical; in my case "three" was dead so I found one working one in the pickandpull.
Mine is auto (grrr!!!) so I have an extra solenoid for the A/T idle booster.

[watch4it]

If you connect a vacuum gauge in the connection that goes to the EGR solenoid and keep the other that goes to the EGR valve connected to the air chamber, how much vacuum did you see?
It may be possible for that chamber to plug up especially if #17 is not connected to the air pipe; unfiltered air (and dirt) would get there as a result.

EDIT: if yours is a stick, then there are three solenoids in the black box.
One: the EGR valve solenoid (cylinder-like, metallic)
Two: the cold advance solenoid (the one you mentioned working)
Three: the A/C idle booster solenoid (you have A/C right?)

Two and Three are identical; in my case "three" was dead so I found one working one in the pickandpull.
Mine is auto (grrr!!!) so I have an extra solenoid for the A/T idle booster.

If I make the connection as you stated it shows Zero vacuum Iam getting 8-9"hg out of the CVC elbow hose to the canister but no vacuum out of the canister to the other 2 outlets. Even by reving the engine and having the Ignition control Solenoid click if you watch the vacuum gage it does not change from 0 vac. This is the picture Iam getting my termanology from for the Selonoids.http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/a...mponentPic.jpg

[watch4it]

from #24 you should see basically intake vacuum (about 20inHG... you said 22 right?)
If the CVC provides steady vacuum (6-8 inHG) then the CVC is OK.
With all the connections in the canister if you remove the one that goes to the EGR solenoid and attach a vacuum you should see vacuum there and (and the EGR valve working and probably killing the engine). To see vacuum where #16 attaches, you need first to plug the other canister connector (the one going to the solenoid) or plugging #17

Do you have a spare canister to swap? And just in case, if you have kept the other black box untouched at this point make sure that the hose connections are done the same way.

The other blk box dosn't have the same kind of canister in it. Mine has 3 hookups and the one in my JY box has 2. My hose #17 is hooked up to the air tube before the throttle bodie and has been for as much as i know. The hose going to the
http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/a...PI5Send1-2.jpg solenoid in the far right corner(its a cast alum lookin thing) and hose #17 goes to the top of it. Where the EGR Control solenoid is a brass colored steel lookin solenoid Which has 2 larger hoses hooked to the bottom of it. Hope ya can tell from the pic. I hooked up the vacuum gage to the hose going to the far right corner solenoid from the canister and it showed 20.0"hg and it wanted to kill the engine.So the vacuum is coming through the canister and it is actuating the EGR valve when I put the vacuum gage on it, or plug it.

[watch4it]

If you connect a vacuum gauge in the connection that goes to the EGR solenoid and keep the other that goes to the EGR valve connected to the air chamber, how much vacuum did you see?
It may be possible for that chamber to plug up especially if #17 is not connected to the air pipe; unfiltered air (and dirt) would get there as a result.

EDIT: if yours is a stick, then there are three solenoids in the black box.
One: the EGR valve solenoid (cylinder-like, metallic)
Two: the cold advance solenoid (the one you mentioned working)
Three: the A/C idle booster solenoid (you have A/C right?)

Two and Three are identical; in my case "three" was dead so I found one working one in the pickandpull.
Mine is auto (grrr!!!) so I have an extra solenoid for the A/T idle booster.

So as the test shows the canister is open and workin.Post #103

[watch4it]

So the engine is at operating temperature and the cold advance solenoid is clicking???? Ummm... I heard mine clicking with engine cold, but not once it is warmed up. Did the fans come on? (that is the check that engine is at operating temperature). There may be something else going on, but let's keep this simple for now and focus on the EGR system only

I checked my temp with my cooling system analyzer and the cooling fan came on at 170 deg.
Which at one time I did change the cts (coolant temp sensor) with a Kragen aftermarket. It still off and on(not always) shows cold then will make the connection and show the running temp. I always thought it was just the plug connection and I never bothered to fix it.

[ecogabriel]

I see the EGR solenoid at the lower right of the photo (aluminum color). Hose #17 is attached at the top of it (the photo is the bottom side of the box right?) And one of the canister connectors is connected with the EGR solenoid; the other hose that comes out of the air chamber at a 90 degree angle from the previous one is #16 -the one that goes to the EGR valve.
The box looks the same as mine (86); 88-89 are slightly different as they have a different solenoid valve and that is why the air chamber (canister) is different too.

let's see your checks.
If I make the connection as you stated it shows Zero vacuum Iam getting 8-9"hg out of the CVC elbow hose to the canister but no vacuum out of the canister to the other 2 outlets.
I should have told you to plug #17, but... let's see the other test
I hooked up the vacuum gage to the hose going to the far right corner solenoid from the canister and it showed 20.0"hg and it wanted to kill the engine.So the vacuum is coming through the canister and it is actuating the EGR valve when I put the vacuum gage on it, or plug it.

The fact that it wanted to kill the engine signals that EGR valve works. It also shows that the canister works (and the CVC too).... I am unsure why you read 20 inHG; since you are measuring vacuum after the CVC you should have seen about the same vacuum at the CVC outlet.
Restablish the hose connections as in the photo you posted and start the engine. DETACH ANY WIRING GOING TO THE SOLENOID; once the solenoid valve is electrically isolated from the car's wiring apply battery voltage to it; positive to one contact, negative to the other
If it works, you should see the engine idling rough or being killed.
That would show that the EGR system in the box (and the valve itself) is working, and that the problem may be the ECU not being able to "communicate" with the box (maybe wiring issue)

If, after powering the EGR solenoid the engine runs as if nothing happens; then the EGR solenoid may be defective.
If that is the case, I think it is possible to make the other solenoid and air box combination work in yours

to recap, I am trying to "operate" the EGR system by directly working on the EGR solenoid.

Again, DETACH ANY WIRE GOING TO THE EGR SOLENOID BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO TEST OPERATION OF EGR SOLENOID in the way I suggested; the last thing I want is a fried ECU (or whatever else for that matter)

I hope I was clear enough; if you have a question please ask...

[Dr_Snooz]

Sorry, you lost me. When you powered the box, you got 8" at the #16 vacuum line?

[watch4it]

I see the EGR solenoid at the lower right of the photo (aluminum color). Hose #17 is attached at the top of it (the photo is the bottom side of the box right?) And one of the canister connectors is connected with the EGR solenoid; the other hose that comes out of the air chamber at a 90 degree angle from the previous one is #16 -the one that goes to the EGR valve.
The box looks the same as mine (86); 88-89 are slightly different as they have a different solenoid valve and that is why the air chamber (canister) is different too.

let's see your checks.
If I make the connection as you stated it shows Zero vacuum Iam getting 8-9"hg out of the CVC elbow hose to the canister but no vacuum out of the canister to the other 2 outlets.
I should have told you to plug #17, but... let's see the other test
I hooked up the vacuum gage to the hose going to the far right corner solenoid from the canister and it showed 20.0"hg and it wanted to kill the engine.So the vacuum is coming through the canister and it is actuating the EGR valve when I put the vacuum gage on it, or plug it.

The fact that it wanted to kill the engine signals that EGR valve works. It also shows that the canister works (and the CVC too).... I am unsure why you read 20 inHG; since you are measuring vacuum after the CVC you should have seen about the same vacuum at the CVC outlet.(I do)
Restablish the hose connections as in the photo you posted and start the engine. DETACH ANY WIRING GOING TO THE SOLENOID; once the solenoid valve is electrically isolated from the car's wiring apply battery voltage to it; positive to one contact, negative to the other
If it works, you should see the engine idling rough or being killed.
That would show that the EGR system in the box (and the valve itself) is working, and that the problem may be the ECU not being able to "communicate" with the box (maybe wiring issue)

If, after powering the EGR solenoid the engine runs as if nothing happens; then the EGR solenoid may be defective.
If that is the case, I think it is possible to make the other solenoid and air box combination work in yours

to recap, I am trying to "operate" the EGR system by directly working on the EGR solenoid.

Again, DETACH ANY WIRE GOING TO THE EGR SOLENOID BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO TEST OPERATION OF EGR SOLENOID in the way I suggested; the last thing I want is a fried ECU (or whatever else for that matter)

I hope I was clear enough; if you have a question please ask...

no I understand. I blew some low preshure air through the canister and then measured the vacuum the second time and it showed vacuum. could I rinse it out with some choke and carb cleaner? Or I have to go tomorrow and try and find the RIGHT blk box for this car. Appaently the one I bought is different.
I wish I had a picture (the right one) for this box. the one I put on photobucket from page 12-6 dosen't match up with the right locations for solenoids and also it dosen't show 2 barrel like valves,only the one and they call it the egr control valve.(in that picture) but you say the other one is it.
So you want to just disconect the egr solenoid or all of the solenoids? I think ya mean just the egr solenoid.
Thanks again
watch4it
PS:my honda dealers around here said None of the parts in that blk box are available anymore.
So the blk/yel and the red are wired or jumpered Pos to blk/yel and the red to neg on batt? yes thats the way I hooked them up BUT I found out the EGR Control valve is not the one I thought it was! You are right it is the one on the right of the picture and none of the wires as per the manual are in what we have been calling the 2P connection. That solenoid has a blk/yel and red wire to it and it is one of the little plugs on the outside of the blk/box on the front. The one on the left goes to the map sensor and the one on the right is the EGR control Solenoid Valve plug. I seperated it and used just the wires going to it with the 2P Plug put back together and by jumping those wires to the battery I do get a stutter engine die test. Thanks we are makin progress. Yee Haww nice job to you all. and to me 2.
watch4it

[watch4it]

Sorry, you lost me. When you powered the box, you got 8" at the #16 vacuum line?

(No) vacuum at the #16 hose. thats with the blk/yel and red wires jumpered to the batt. Or with the 2P connector plugged back together.
But with the #16 hose connected to the egr and the other end goes to one of the outlets on the canister then one on each end of the canister one goes to the elbow hose on the CVC valve and the other end goes to the EGR controll solenoid valve. If i disconnect that hose and plug it with my finger the engine starts to stutter and die. if I put the vacuum gage on that hose it shows agout 20"hg vacume which comes through the canister and the CVC valve, and that makes the engine stutter and act like it will die too.

Now that I found the right wires do you want me to run this test again. See post #108
Thnks:watch4it

[Dr_Snooz]

If you disconnect the hose between the CVC and the air chamber and measure vacuum at the air chamber, what does it read?

[watch4it]

If you disconnect the hose between the CVC and the air chamber and measure vacuum at the air chamber, what does it read?

There are two hoses to the cvc the elbow hose is the supply to the air chamber but the supply to the cvc is the center hose #24 from the plenum chamber. When I disconect the elbow hose from the air chamber I get about 20"hg. and then it shows about the same going through the air chamber to the EGR Control solenoid. but shows no vacuum to the #16 hose coming off the air chamber which goes to the EGR valve on the engine. If I pull the hose off the EGR Control valve and plug it then it puts vacuum to the #16 hose and makes the engine stutter and die.
Watch4it

[Dr_Snooz]

We're still on p. 12-80 of the troubleshooting procedure. Disconnect the vacuum hose between the CVC and air chamber and connect the vacuum gauge to the air chamber. The #16 hose should be connected again. What is the vacuum reading?

[watch4it]

Well, Well,Well.Today is a good day. First off I want to thank you all for your time and thoughts on my problem, and believe me it was my problem.
Thanks Dr Snooze, ecogabriel, Oldblueaccord, LX-Incredible, and any others that took time out of your time to aid in this with pics, comments etc.
I have had experiances on other sites that you might pay alot of money and still not get the answer you needed. This in posts alone was probably worth alot of money. THANK YOU all.
I just went on a 40 mile test drive and I got no light! NO PGM-FI light! I drove the poop out of her just to get it all cleaned out. 292000+ miles and this car I garuntee you will peg the speedo. No paint, interior is Kinda clean, but she is my car and I have never been happier.
Now for the next step, the ole smog mieser. Yikes
Thank You again. Ill give ya all One guess as to what the problem was. He He! there is a hint in all the posts. I'll tell ya soon.
Good Day to you all and remember.
The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in
defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more
important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is
supplemental.
Thanks to you all!!

[watch4it]

We're still on p. 12-80 of the troubleshooting procedure. Disconnect the vacuum hose between the CVC and air chamber and connect the vacuum gauge to the air chamber. The #16 hose should be connected again. What is the vacuum reading?

Thanks Doc It is workin fine. Thanks for hangin in there by the number of posts you have I can see you have done this for alot of other people also.
Thanks again:
watch4it

[ecogabriel]

The freaking black box design changed mid-series; 86-87s have a different setup than 88-89. What the manual has in terms of testing is OK but since the wiring is done differently, it is a PITA to follow the first time one faces the system. For instance, I remember the 2-wire connector to the right of the 3-wire connector (MAP sensor) but I did not recall its exact function (EGR solenoid) which you discovered by following the wires. I did remember the shape of the EGR solenoid when you posted the photo (good photo, by the way)

[ecogabriel]

WATCH:
I was writing the previous post and I did not realize that you have already solved the problem

GOODDDD!!!

Another 3G saved!!!

[watch4it]

WATCH:
I was writing the previous post and I did not realize that you have already solved the problem

GOODDDD!!!

Another 3G saved!!!

It wasn't me It was you people going through all the hard research and helping me test. I say THANK YOU AGAIN.

The problem seemed to be the CTS (thats what i always called them) I made note that I had changed it over a year ago and that was when the PGM-FI light had started to come on. After changing the coolant temp sensor the light still came on so I didn't think they were related. Well Well Well turns out that it struck me like a slap from the doctor that I had busted the little rubber like boot that covered the protruding end connection on the CTS and the connector was rounded out (loose) from all the effort that it took to get it off! Think about it! A bad connection to the coolant temp sensor lets the ECU get a (change your mind) am I hot or am I cold signal! Thats why my temp gauge would sometimes register and sometimes not, and that was the reason I changed the temp sensor in the first place. So it was a repair that wasn't done right by this front yard mech that caused the afore mentioned problem refered to as My problem. haha
I thank you all for your support I hope I have this done but time is always the truth teller. I will always check in to 3gees and see whats up but everyone can rest for a min from me the pestery kid on the block.
Good job by all and to all a good night. Rest well and THANK YOU ALL!!!!!!
watch4it

[Dr_Snooz]

Odd that the temp sensor would throw an EGR code. Nice sleuthing there. Keep her running for a long time now.

[ecogabriel]

Odd that the temp sensor would throw an EGR code. Nice sleuthing there. Keep her running for a long time now.

I was thinking how a temperature sensor that sends information to the dashboard gauge may affect ECU operation, considering that the ECU uses another sensor to know engine temperature.

Anyway, keep the car running running and enjoying it!

[watch4it]

I was thinking how a temperature sensor that sends information to the dashboard gauge may affect ECU operation, considering that the ECU uses another sensor to know engine temperature.

Anyway, keep the car running running and enjoying it!

What sensor is that? And it is funny to me because I had a hecka time finding the coolant temp sensor when I was doing that job. There are two more in my water neck that hook to the block. I dont remember the names but I remember reading a diffinition some where (Ive been thinking about this one, something I noted was in the schematic one of the signal wires for the egr position (lift) sensor feeds thru the temp sensor.
The green/yellow wire comes out of the ecu thru the temp sensor then it turns green/white out of the temp sensor to the egr lift sensor. That same green white wire also goes to the intake air temp sensor.
The yellow wire out of the egr lift sens. goes back to the ecu, I think that is the output signal from the egr lift.) in parenthisis is the researched Item. I kept a word pad document with all the info I researched so I could try and work through the problem. But then I found this miracle site and you all started to help, But I still have my info saved.
Maybe it is one of those made in Japan cars and then a mid production run which makes it part Honda and Part Accorn. hehe I always end up with something like that. My whole life has been that way kinda backwards. But I was a breached birth babie anyhow, so the record is just holding true.
Thanks again: My deepest respect to you all.
watch4it

[ecogabriel]

What sensor is that? And it is funny to me because I had a hecka time finding the coolant temp sensor when I was doing that job. There are two more in my water neck that hook to the block. I dont remember the names but I remember reading a diffinition some where (Ive been thinking about this one, something I noted was in the schematic one of the signal wires for the egr position (lift) sensor feeds thru the temp sensor.
The green/yellow wire comes out of the ecu thru the temp sensor then it turns green/white out of the temp sensor to the egr lift sensor. That same green white wire also goes to the intake air temp sensor.
The yellow wire out of the egr lift sens. goes back to the ecu, I think that is the output signal from the egr lift.) in parenthisis is the researched Item. I kept a word pad document with all the info I researched so I could try and work through the problem. But then I found this miracle site and you all started to help, But I still have my info saved.
Maybe it is one of those made in Japan cars and then a mid production run which makes it part Honda and Part Accorn. hehe I always end up with something like that. My whole life has been that way kinda backwards. But I was a breached birth babie anyhow, so the record is just holding true.
Thanks again: My deepest respect to you all.
watch4it

The sensor you replaced screws in the back side of that neck yo mentioned. The two sensors that screw at the top of it? one is a radiator fan switch that will act when engine gets extremely hot when stopped; the other one is the one that the ECU uses to see how hot or cold the engine is...
By the way, my LX-i is also a japanese one. Regardless of manufacturing place, they all have to conform to the standards of the place in which they are sold (in our case the U.S.)

When you mentioned the cold solenoid working with engine hot I though that maybe the sensor that tells engine temperature to the ECU (screwed at the top of the water pipe) was not working OK.
In any event, you should just get it sniffed for emissions and tell us how it went.

[watch4it]

The sensor you replaced screws in the back side of that neck yo mentioned. The two sensors that screw at the top of it? one is a radiator fan switch that will act when engine gets extremely hot when stopped; the other one is the one that the ECU uses to see how hot or cold the engine is...
By the way, my LX-i is also a japanese one. Regardless of manufacturing place, they all have to conform to the standards of the place in which they are sold (in our case the U.S.)

When you mentioned the cold solenoid working with engine hot I though that maybe the sensor that tells engine temperature to the ECU (screwed at the top of the water pipe) was not working OK.
In any event, you should just get it sniffed for emissions and tell us how it went.

Thank You I will.

[watch4it]

well I did get rid of the PGM-FI light as coming on but it failed smog
I think I need the test for the EGR valve? The smog Tech said he thought it was that the car needed a new Catalitic Converter. So I replaced it with a Thrush cat, it was the only thing available,$173.00
I remember this experiance from before on a smog for my olds replaced the cat and it made no diff.
I think the CTS was the prob (loose connection) for the PGM-FI light, on the Honda.
But I have a funny feeling it is really the EGR valve for the no pass Smog. I checked each of the wires using the center wire as neutral and I did get readings off of each outside wire as I applied vacumm. Does that mean it passes the test? Remember that I did take the switch off of the top and clean the pintal shaft. Before I did that I had no referance voltage on the test. EGR valve was $203.00 So I decided to look into the old one to MAKE shure it was broke before I replaced it, Thought I could fix anything attitude. Iam truly getting Humbled by this little car.
Could I get an update for my problem and get the way to test the EGR valve?
Much appreciated.
watch4it

[ecogabriel]

well I did get rid of the PGM-FI light as coming on but it failed smog
I think I need the test for the EGR valve? The smog Tech said he thought it was that the car needed a new Catalitic Converter. So I replaced it with a Thrush cat, it was the only thing available,$173.00
I remember this experiance from before on a smog for my olds replaced the cat and it made no diff.
I think the CTS was the prob (loose connection) for the PGM-FI light, on the Honda.
But I have a funny feeling it is really the EGR valve for the no pass Smog. I checked each of the wires using the center wire as neutral and I did get readings off of each outside wire as I applied vacumm. Does that mean it passes the test? Remember that I did take the switch off of the top and clean the pintal shaft. Before I did that I had no referance voltage on the test. EGR valve was $203.00 So I decided to look into the old one to MAKE shure it was broke before I replaced it, Thought I could fix anything attitude. Iam truly getting Humbled by this little car.
Could I get an update for my problem and get the way to test the EGR valve?
Much appreciated.
watch4it

My failed EGR valve had no continuity in one of its sides; several others I picked in the jy had the same issue but the one in the car now reads on both sides. No code 12 (EGR) and pass emissions like a champ; I have to test this year.

Post emission results. if NOx is high then EGR system (or cat) may be culprits. If no code 12, your EGR system is working. It might be the case that the individual passages to the cylinders are partially clogged; Snooz knows about it (I have just read about it)
Other failures (HC or CO) may or may not be due to the cat.

To replace the cat, one has to be sure that there are no other problems that may make a car fail emissions. My 3G failed the first time (NOx very high) but with a replaced EGR valve passed without a hiccup.
My 5G civic also failed once for NOx but it does not have any EGR system; the guy looked at the test results and CO and HC were within passing range, took a look at the cat (OE, 180K) and said that the problem would be there. Sure enough, mine was nicely melted inside... new cat, no more problems

Bottom line: before replacing cat, post test results and we may say something else

[watch4it]

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/a...0LX/img002.jpg
Here is the first smog test. He ran two more today after I replaced the cat like he sugested. Failed both of them. One failed on the low end test and the other one failed on the high end test. I'll get the numbers tomorrow and stickem in the photobucket.
Thanks: watch4it