READ THIS,VERY INTERESTING....(e-mail going around)

[markmdz89hatch]

...shit, now this just got me started....

...also instead of Obama just doing the same 'economic stimulus' package of sending everyone a check, which was just done and didn't have the wide impact intended, why not just take a little less across the board.

What's that mean: That means that instead of taxing the snot out of local builders when they sell their house, just lower their cap gains tax so they can lower their price and still make the same profit. ...then on the other side, create a no real-estate tax for a year (or some other realized tax break) for potential home buyers as an incentive to go out there and start spending money again.

Credit lenders have already learned their lesson, and will continue to bleed as defaults rise hand in hand with unemployment, so they're not going to be making the same mistake again (at least not in the very near future).

Fact: Credit will be tougher to get. So you can't go into a real-estate deal with the mentality that if you don't have a penny, and only had your job for 3 months, that you can get a mortgage with no money down 100% financing. Not going to happen. Oh no, does that mean it's time for people to start making responsible financial decisions? Say it ain't so. It IS so.

BUT, I think that credit has tightened too much too fast, and they should still be lenient, but smart with their 'bending' of their 'good credit' rules just to keep the defaults low.

The tax breaks will allow the 'stimulus' without the fed's having to actually come out of pocket for anything, and could amount to a savings more proportional to each individual market rather then an 'everyone get a grand' plan. A thousand dollars to me may be only 37 cents to you, dependant on the cost of living, and median salary range where you are.

[redaztec]

Interesting read, though I had come across much of that data before.

I'll definitely agree that American cars, especially those in the last few years, have gotten way better than they ever were before.

However, at least some of them need to be better. For example, a friend of mine bought a new Cobalt in 05. By now, it's had many significant repairs including multiple steering racks. The suspension creaks, and the interior had already disintegrated a year or more ago (i.e. cheap paint flaking off, plastic bits breaking off, etc - looks way worse than the interior in my 19-year-old Accord).

My dad owned an Oldsmobile Intrigue, and before 65K miles he'd already gotten sick of fixing it and traded it in on a Honda.

I drive a few Dodges at work, and I've been impressed with how shoddy the build quality and engineering seem. The transmissions especially are terrible.

I have had pretty good experiences with Ford though - one friend of mine who is very hard on cars has a 5-year-old Focus, and despite having been crashed it is in much better condition than the above-mentioned Cobalt. My parents have also had an AWD Ford Aerostar for the last 14-15 years and it's never had a serious problem.

In the future, I would already consider a Ford product, and if GM and Chrysler keep improving their products, I'd consider theirs too. However, I won't be one of the first to jump the import-car ship. I need to see a lot of American cars surviving and surviving well for 10-15 years before I'll be willing to buy one. I do, however, hope I can someday buy an American car and feel the same confidence and pride as I do with my Hondas.

[2oodoor]

In the future, I would already consider a Ford product, and if GM and Chrysler keep improving their products, I'd consider theirs too. However, I won't be one of the first to jump the import-car ship. I need to see a lot of American cars surviving and surviving well for 10-15 years before I'll be willing to buy one. I do, however, hope I can someday buy an American car and feel the same confidence and pride as I do with my Hondas.

I concour
There are several American made models out there now (post 1996) that are going well beyond 200,000 miles with very few problems. Now compared to 1986, where you were lucky to get 87,000 before a major failure occured, that is significant improvment. One that comes to mind right off since I maintain them and have first hand experience, is the Ford Crown Victoria. The base mechanicals of that car can be found all across the Ford product line with Mustangs, F-series, Econoline, just to name a few. All of those are pretty durable vehicles. Now Mustangs, pick and choose... there were rental fleets and many were abused as a children...
GM had many models that could, a few have, make it in that same field of vehicles. The thing that happened with those is the dam intake manifolds leaking. I have a colleague who works for JB BYRYDER a large used car franchise. According to him, GM intakes have kept those Byryder mechanics employed the past ten years. Byryder swoops them up by the lot and refurbishs them for resale, that is if a rod didn't get bent from uncompressable water. It is amazing to me all the different engines by GM had this exact same problem, add to that the TCC modules inside the transmissions that consistantly failed... again all types of models fwd and rwd. 5.7L, 3.0L,3.8L
For anyone here to without the uncertainty of hear say or quoting articles just like the first post in this thread, tell us how bad American made cars are in the past ten years, first you would have had to been able to afford to buy one during that period. Second you would have had to own it till it was paid off.
I for one have purchased several with over 100K miles on them, USED Vehicles, and was quite please overall with them. Flame me if you want, as I take my usual "devil's advocate" position in this discussion, but I speak from experience. I still love my 86 Accords ...20 something year old Hondas, and enjoy them as some of the best cars I have ever been in contact with.

[Vanilla Sky]

One thing with cars that have a lot of miles on them is that a lot of the issues have been fixed. The GM intake leak was fixed with a better gasket. It can also be pre-emptively remedied by changing out the Dex-Cool.

Any poorly built examples of any given car are likely to have been written off by owners that just get tired of them.

One thing I'm seeing is that American cars are really starting to do better. As stated before, there isn't one Big 3 car that's on my list of cars right now. The Vibe is a slight possibility, but the other (Caliber) is out for sure. A lot of people buy their second (and most other subsequent) cars from the manufacturer that built their first, provided that the experience was positive. The two most important cars a company can build are their halo car and an econobox.

[stat1K]

i have never personally owned an american car. i have however driven a few.

i drove a 1999 s10 - it was 5 years old when i drove it with nearly 60k on it. the ignition had faulty wiring which would cause it to turn off while i was driving. this would in turn lock the steering wheel while driving. happened to me once on the freeway. that was enough right there for me to never want a chevy.

i drove a 1999 ford taurus. other than the fact that they shoved way to big of a motor in the bay without the necessary suspension to keep the thing aligned it did very well. we put 120k on that car in 6 years then sold it for 2700... yeah 2700 for a 6 year old car... that was above the blue book. that's another problem i have...

i drove a 2000 ford f150 xlt single cab sport... this is the best ford product i have ever encountered. 100K+ with no major repairs PERIOD. worst part was when my dad had to buy tires for the 17" wheels.

this is the small list of american cars i have driven for extended periods of time. i have to say that i for one, like many of you, appreciate sub compacts w/ four cylinders. i haven't seen anything from the american cars in that category in quite some time.

the dodge neon? the ford focus? the cobalt/cavalier?

i would not even consider any of those.

however, i would not consider the new civics anymore because of the size... they are way too big. they are bigger than our old accords by a long shot. i park my 1990 civic sedan next to a 2008 civic sedan every day. the thing is about 1 foot longer and 1 foot taller than my car. it's crazy big for what it's supposed to be. also the prices have become outrageous. for my 2008 fit here in arizona the lowest you can find one is about 16k before tax title and tag. that's a lot... i paid 17.6 out the door on it and i still feel that was too much but we needed a nice safe car for my wife to commute in.

i think the point of this survey was to attempt to sway people back towards the american car companies... unfortunately for them, a lot of us grew up in a time when all our parents did was buy them, realize how shitty they were, trade them in for an import. in my case it was a 1985 honda accord that my father purchased new when my brother was born. i grew up with that car and it's what i came to know and love.

but when it comes to the question of should we help them or not i will still say that the answer is probably yes we should help them. i heard senator chuck schumer say something interesting the other day on npr and that was that we don't hear about the japanese or german companies much in the terms of gov't help. he said that it's pretty obvious that their companies are recieving funding from their governments to help in this troubled time as well. this is because they recognize the significance that these manufacturing bases carry when it comes their countries and their people.

someone said something about hard headed approach. i will say this now like i have many other times.

I WILL ONLY BUY HONDAS. PERIOD. PERIOD. PERIOD.

[markmdz89hatch]

do yourself a favor and take a peek at the Saturn Astra. Very well built car. Not loaded with bells and whistles, but good basic transportation.

[rfiks]

Yes..POS...so much of a pos that they were amazingyly popular...and even won! (gasp) in autocross/roadracing etc in the mid-late 90's...



And the SRT-4...a 20k dollar car with sub 14 second quarter mile times...how horrific


At this point im pretty sure i could put a honda badge on a pile of my shit and you would get all excited over it because its a honda...

fuck yea-u got 1?

[Demon1024]

^^^ I concour^^^^
Most people do not expect to find parts for Honda (your list) there anyway.
You should be selling filters, belts, cv axles, brake parts once in a while, but that would be about it.

don't forget alternators!

[markmdz89hatch]

Gettlefinger needs to step off his soapbox and look himself in the mirror and realize that he's pissing in the wind.

[lostforawhile]

i just fixed my stepdaughters 96 corsica, what a piece of shit, i drove it around the block to check the brakes and have no desire to ever drive it again. I mean stuff is breaking that shouldn't be breaking on a car of this age. already leaks oil,antifreeze,power steering fluid, transmission fluid, smokes, most of the electrical stuff is shot,i sit in the seat and sink. i couldn't even see what gear i was in because the indicator crap was broke. I mean my wifes 98 civic has problems,but it's like a benze compared to this piece of shit. cars like this are why GM is broke. reminds me of a K car. This is a 96,why does it feel like i'm driving a car from the 70's? I mean the car is plain out but ass ugly inside. why in the hell was GM still putting the headlight switch on the dash in 96? almost everyone has it on the end of the turn signal lever now. it's almost universal. I'm not concerned where a car is made, if they made a car that is as decent as these 3geez after 22 years, I would buy one,but as long as they make poorly engineered poorly made cars, I have no reason to buy one. Does anyone think too, that the fact that these union workers are making about 55 percent more then the average wage in this country, and it's almost impossible to get fired if you are in the union, do you think a lot of these wiorkers really give a crap about what comes down the line and if it's right? I know some of them do, but if your job is guaranteed and you are making an assload of money, where is your incentive to really do your best on that car? so it's fucked up,you get paid the same thing anyway. It's the communism theory, everyone gets the same regardless, so no has any incentive to do any better.

[rfiks]

mustangs r garbage...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyTYP...e=channel_page

[cubert]

mustangs r garbage...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyTYP...e=channel_page

Oh Em gEE...



YoU FounDs Da YoUToobZ vId oF Da Rx-7 BeEtIngZ dA MuStANG....MuSt MeAnz Da MUstAng Is JunKz...

[A18A]

omgwtfnowai

[Ichiban]

Good thing Mazda and Ford are the same thing in a lot of cases...

[rfiks]

Oh Em gEE...



YoU FounDs Da YoUToobZ vId oF Da Rx-7 BeEtIngZ dA MuStANG....MuSt MeAnz Da MUstAng Is JunKz...

YA IT DUZ! and "wrAstling" is 4 phagz and people who actually enjoy recieving the drive by bukakke on a daily basis- b4 and after YOUR crappy day at your crappy job getting crappy pay and getting pushed around by sum1 whos more of a squre than u are. get off my sac! i didnt personaly insult n e 1. and so what if i h8 stangs and gm so what, u like recieving the daily bukakke and "wrAstling. and i like chix and HONDAs, so to each his own.

[Civic Accord Honda]

i just fixed my stepdaughters 96 corsica, what a piece of shit, i drove it around the block to check the brakes and have no desire to ever drive it again. I mean stuff is breaking that shouldn't be breaking on a car of this age. already leaks oil,antifreeze,power steering fluid, transmission fluid, smokes, most of the electrical stuff is shot,i sit in the seat and sink. i couldn't even see what gear i was in because the indicator crap was broke. I mean my wifes 98 civic has problems,but it's like a benze compared to this piece of shit. cars like this are why GM is broke. reminds me of a K car. This is a 96,why does it feel like i'm driving a car from the 70's? I mean the car is plain out but ass ugly inside. why in the hell was GM still putting the headlight switch on the dash in 96? almost everyone has it on the end of the turn signal lever now. it's almost universal. I'm not concerned where a car is made, if they made a car that is as decent as these 3geez after 22 years, I would buy one,but as long as they make poorly engineered poorly made cars, I have no reason to buy one. Does anyone think too, that the fact that these union workers are making about 55 percent more then the average wage in this country, and it's almost impossible to get fired if you are in the union, do you think a lot of these wiorkers really give a crap about what comes down the line and if it's right? I know some of them do, but if your job is guaranteed and you are making an assload of money, where is your incentive to really do your best on that car? so it's fucked up,you get paid the same thing anyway. It's the communism theory, everyone gets the same regardless, so no has any incentive to do any better.

i feel your pain about gm cars cant stand working on them aswell

mustangs r garbage...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyTYP...e=channel_page

you sir fail

YA IT DUZ! and "wrAstling" is 4 phagz and people who actually enjoy recieving the drive by bukakke on a daily basis- b4 and after YOUR crappy day at your crappy job getting crappy pay and getting pushed around by sum1 whos more of a squre than u are. get off my sac! i didnt personaly insult n e 1. and so what if i h8 stangs and gm so what, u like recieving the daily bukakke and "wrAstling. and i like chix and HONDAs, so to each his own.

you just failed some more

[codyJDM]

I have just consumed a hearty serving of fail

lolwut

[cubert]

bwahahaha..



and now we resort to insulting something we know nothing about, and gay jokes



my job is done here

[markmdz89hatch]

Ok, but unfortunately mine just started. Sunavaabitch!

Ok guys (not singling anyone out here) let's try and salvage this used-to-be good thread and keep the name calling, flaming, and IM shorthand to a minimum.

[2drSE-i]

Ford actually owns mazda...

[cubert]

Ok, but unfortunately mine just started. Sunavaabitch!

Ok guys (not singling anyone out here) let's try and salvage this used-to-be good thread and keep the name calling, flaming, and IM shorthand to a minimum.

Sorry bout that, Mark..couldnt resist

Ford actually owns mazda...

Yup...the 2.0 in my mums 626 is the same motor as the Ford Probe.

[gp02a0083]

Ford actually owns mazda...

your telling me you never saw mazda's with motorcraft stuff on them? hell i remember working on a few older rx-7's that had motorcraft stuff under the hood

[Ichiban]

YA IT DUZ! get off my sac!

But it's so nice and warm.

[cubert]

But it's so nice and warm.

[Vanilla Sky]

Ford doesn't own Mazda. Forn owns controlling stake, but not outright.

The engine in the Probe was a Mazda developed engine. It was also used in the MX6, and a smaller displacement version was used in the MX3.