The TRUTH about Tokico's (and more)...

[markmdz89hatch]

Ok ladies and gentlemen, here's the deal.

Lately I've been seeing A LOT of people out here not only claiming to have a perfect setup with Tokico's but also recommending them for use with damn near any brand of spring the aftermarket produces.

It seems that regardless of how many times the facts are shown that they are a bad idea, the claims of 'it feels great on my car, don't listen to the facts' are winning out. Why? Maybe because they're relatively inexpensive? Because they're blue? Because the name sounds cool? Who knows.

So let's just cut through all the bull and call a spade a spade.

I just got off the phone with a strut & shock engineer at Tokico USA, and after a lengthy conversation, and an initial response to my inquiry about compression/rebound specs being 'that's confidential and proprietary information of Tokico' I softened the guy up and got down to the cold hard facts. Yes we talked numbers.

FACT: Tokico HP's (aka. Blues) for the 86-89 Accord are valved to handle an absolute maximum rebound rating of 345 lb/in up front, and 195 lb/in in the rear. (That is straight from the mouth of the engineer at Tokico.) Now, an industry standard is to pair a spring to a strut/shock that is valved to handle 10-15% MORE rebound (lb/in) than the springs.

Prior to actually getting to the nitty-gritty with the tech about specs, and proving to him that I was at least a little knowledgeable about suspension dynamics, I got this whole schpeal about "It's not recommended to put a spring on a strut that is 'stronger' than the strut." Ya think?

Anyway, to anyone out there still adamant on pairing Toki's with ANY spring out there, with the exception of Neuspeed/H&R. Thanks to one of the (if not the most) knowledgeable suspension guy on this forum, Mike, AZMike, here's a link to his post on the stickie'd thread at the top of this sub-forum.

https://www.3geez.com/forum/showpost....97&postcount=2

That link contains a very detailed spec of each spring available to the 3G, and breaks it down in plain numbers showing the exact spring rate of each.

If you want a set of shocks that are well paired, and will perform very well for your spring application, take the spring rate of your spring selection, and multiply it by 1.15, and you'll get a very good base to start from for your rebound valving. 1.1 if you don't plan on really pushing your car should be safe.

Example:
Sprint springs: 350 lb/in Front, 225 lb/in rear. 2.25" drop.
The 10-15% More calculation: (Front: [350x1.1=385 to 350x1.15=402.5], Rear: [225x1.1=247.5 to 225x1.15=258.75])
Recommended Damper Valving: 385-403 lb/in Front, 248-259 lb/in Rear.

For reference:
Tokico HP: 345 lb/in Front, 195 lb/in Rear
Koni Red's: Said to be 'good for springs up to 350 lb/in', from which you can assume they are valved around 385 lb/in Front, 385 lb/in Rear.
KYB GR-2: (15-20% stiffer than stock [as stated by KYB engineer a few weeks ago]), so one could assume: 243-253 lb/in Front, 135-140 lb/in Rear
Billstein HD: (said to be oem replacement only [without revalving])

[Rendon LX-i]

Interesting man. That explains alot of details

[2drSE-i]

Im VERY surprised to see that handle that much. My calculations show that 15% stiffer (which is what they claim in the ads) is only 242, which wouldn't support ANY aftermarket spring. Its really surprising to me that the Tokicos are that strong.

[markmdz89hatch]

Im VERY surprised to see that handle that much. My calculations show that 15% stiffer (which is what they claim in the ads) is only 242, which wouldn't support ANY aftermarket spring. Its really surprising to me that the Tokicos are that strong.

Honestly me too. The guy claimed that they were originally built to be paired with their Tokico springs, which is sort of where he started to base some of his performance specs.

...but if memory serves me, Jim tried out the Toki on Toki, and found that the HP's fell WAY short of handling the Toki springs. ...and also if memory serves, Jim even complained that a call to Tokico resulted in them responding that just because they're both Toki branded, doesn't necessarily mean they're made to work with one another.

I personally want to have a new set of them sent to a shop that can measure their compression/rebound specs and get back to us with the numbers.

[2drSE-i]

thats probably why he said that then. I doubt they have any specs at all for them. My Koni's barely handle my Tokico springs.

[markmdz89hatch]

thats probably why he said that then. I doubt they have any specs at all for them. My Koni's barely handle my Tokico springs.

Yeah, I think I spent my Koni's out back (maybe front too) thanks to my B&G's. But OH DAMN did they feel soooo nice when I first put them on. If I was fast enough on lateral movements, I could load each front wheel and actually get an extra 1/4-1/2" (or more) of squat out of front end. Loved it.

....dammit, all this susp. talk is making me want to resurrect my hatchie and get it on the road again. I've actually been back and forth with a racing shop over the past few days trying to see how feasible it is to make brackets to use an Afco or Penske setup instead of going the route of revalving the Koni's. Who knows how that'll turn out though.

[2drSE-i]

Do It

[cygnus x-1]

....dammit, all this susp. talk is making me want to resurrect my hatchie and get it on the road again. I've actually been back and forth with a racing shop over the past few days trying to see how feasible it is to make brackets to use an Afco or Penske setup instead of going the route of revalving the Koni's. Who knows how that'll turn out though.

What all would these brackets entail?

Interesting info on the Tokicos.

C|

[2ndGenGuy]

Do it!! Get your hatch going!!

[86AccordLxi]

I think his numbers are way off, but I'm no expert.

I think tokicos are like 15% stiffer than stock at most. Even with h&r's my 3g still had some bounce in the front.

Now, it could just be the valving (compression and rebound goofiness), but I wouldn't recommend them for anything but h&r's.

Thanks for posting this

[mushroom_toy]

Explains nothing to me. Im running 450 front 350 rear with no problems whatsoever.

[markmdz89hatch]

that's just it. i know it feels like it rides great. ...and you're half way to the full equation of a good setup, you just need to lose the Toki's. Thing is, the Sprints, or G/C's are pretty good springs or c/o's. Good and stiff, and if you lower the car like you did, you get very little travel out of the strut/shock because the spring is so hard it doesn't 'give' all that much. So, loading a corner in hard turning is not an issue, the issue is with the unloaded corner. Bump-steer is increased exponentially when a damper can't keep up with the spring. Braking is less effective too because you get a lurch from the ass end, which transfers weight to the front, putting more stress on the front brakes.

A challenge I usually pose to anyone in a situation like this is to have a buddy of yours follow you and take a vid of you just driving around, and you'll be very surprised to see how little control the dampers have over your springs. I would gladly send you a set of Koni's or revalved Bills to put on and try out to see if you notice a difference, but unfortunately I don't have any extras or I would.

[86AccordLxi]

Don't confuse him with the facts!

[codyJDM]

Mark:

The people that have making these claims of a perfect setup me apparently being one of them, aren't saying we have the best and the most efficient spring and strut setups out there. Me and the others making these statements are merely saying we're getting a damn good ride and a hell of a lot better handling than stock. A LOT better.

We understand your numbers. This information has been made very clear to all of us here on 3geez. Calling a company to tell us again isn't going to make us be able to find a set of Koni's like you were lucky enough to.

/end long rant

Like others with a similar setup than me, we're just making it be known that our feasible setups work pretty f'ing great for what they are.

[markmdz89hatch]

Cody, the point I'm trying to make is that those Toki's are doing nothing when you pair them up with springs that over power them. You're better off not buying the Toki's at all, and just putting the springs or c/o's on your stock struts and use the money you saved by not buying the Toki's, and save up a bit more and order up the revalved Bill's when you have enough.

Trust me, my goal is not to make anyone out there (including yourself and anyone else that has been using and recommending them) look stupid, or tell them they're an idiot. Remember, we're all here on this board for the same reason: We love to work on our 3G, and are all interested in making it just that much better, and making it our own. The call to the company was to get to the bottom of these damn things and get some answers. Although what's written in the stickied threads says not to use them, there was never any real spec's published. I sought out to get those specs to either prove me wrong, or unfortunately confirm what's already been known to be truth.

I have a ton of respect for you, shroom, and anyone else on this board that has taken the time to do all that you have on your cars, and in helping tons of others on this board, etc.

But at the end of the day, the facts are facts, and I'm just trying to save members from wasting money on something that just won't benefit them in any way, and save them on any potential problems that could result in a mis-matched setup. Yes there are many other things that someone could do to their car, or not do, to make them much more unsafe than a mismatched strut/spring combo, but it's still unsafe none-the-less.

[markmdz89hatch]

...also....

I'm not out here trying to be Mr.Negativity at all. I understand that basically by calling bullshit on the Toki's I'm tearing the idea of a good setup right out of someone's reach. ...that said, I make at least a half-dozen phone calls or e-mails each and every month (and have been doing so for years now) to different manufacturers or shops to try and get them to actually make a quality product for us. The trouble is that I'm pissing in the wind with these requests because although we have a great number of people on this board wanting good setups, they're expensive, and our numbers don't amount to a fraction of the RX-7, RX-8, 240Z, Teg or Civic guys, etc. Needless to say though, I'll continue to bang my head against the wall until I either break my head or pop a hole in the wall, and get another option for us.

I think I'm close, but just not there yet. I'll be sure to let everyone know if something does materialize into something useful for us.

[codyJDM]

Cody, the point I'm trying to make is that those Toki's are doing nothing when you pair them up with springs that over power them. You're better off not buying the Toki's at all, and just putting the springs or c/o's on your stock struts and use the money you saved by not buying the Toki's, and save up a bit more and order up the revalved Bill's when you have enough.

Trust me, my goal is not to make anyone out there (including yourself and anyone else that has been using and recommending them) look stupid, or tell them they're an idiot. Remember, we're all here on this board for the same reason: We love to work on our 3G, and are all interested in making it just that much better, and making it our own.

I have a ton of respect for you, shroom, and anyone else on this board that has taken the time to do all that you have on your cars, and in helping tons of others on this board, etc.

But at the end of the day, the facts are facts, and I'm just trying to save members from wasting money on something that just won't benefit them in any way, and save them on any potential problems that could result in a mis-matched setup. Yes there are many other things that someone could do to their car, or not do, to make them much more unsafe than a mismatched strut/spring combo, but it's still unsafe none-the-less.

My only point is, my setup makes me car handle, feel, and look tons better than stock and any other setup I have had. My car has never been so stiff, responsive, and overall this great feeling since I have owned it. It doesn't lean, it doesn't bounce and float like soft springs do, and it doesn't kill me on the freeway.

My facts are also facts, supported by numbers or not the Tokicos are not horrible or unsafe. I have put this setup to the test in extremely harsh road course driving to daily driving in the city and on the freeway. I did not waste my money on this setup, and it benefited me greatly. Nor do I regret doing it.

Of course you know I greatly respect you, your car, and the info you provide to us here, but c'mon man. Tokicos aren't as terrible as you make them out to be. They are far from the best, but they can get the job done.

[mushroom_toy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08rtXVIe5LE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZsVNM26uAI

For the most part you cant see too much of me in the first half of the video. Up until 8 mins or so im lead. In my opinion my setup which consist of free cheap nopi and aerospeed brand coilover sleeves. 450lb fron 350.b rear and tokicos with the tophat mod. Rear acura vigor sway bar and upper tiebar, is comparable to all of the other setups in the video. Im pretty sure ant is running gc/revalved konis (white ef), and at least two or threee of the other guys are running full skunk 2 coilovers, as well as some eibach/koni setups. Imho you cant beat it for the money.

[2drSE-i]

I have to disagree with ya a bit mark. I think sticking harder springs on stock struts is nuts, seeing as how most of our cars stock struts are FAR gone by now. While the aftermarket springs will wear them out, ,tokicos will handle the new springs better than the stockers. For a while anyway.

[markmdz89hatch]

Can you fix the links? I just want to see a 3G in action. With everything that you've done (sway bar, tie bar, insanely hard springs [that's my style right there], etc), that's all recipe for a rock hard, super tight setup, and a damn good one at that. The struts are only a part of it. I'm willing to put money on the fact that if you put the original struts that you took off, back on the car with all the other parts left the same, you would feel no difference at all.

Seriously my intention was not to offend any of you guys, or get anyone on the defensive, just to educate any of the guys looking to get a good setup when they're looking to drop, or just upgrade their car.

Shroom, PM me if you're interested in a custom setup I'm trying to put together with a local fabricator. Right now, you, me and only one other that I can think of off the top of my head have spring stiff enough to benefit from this uber custom setup, as I can only get struts valved with stupid high rates for this custom job. The ones I'm looking to use are not even available valved less than 400 lb/in for rebound. Best part: I might be able to get it for like only $100 (ish) more then your Toki's were.

[markmdz89hatch]

I have to disagree with ya a bit mark. I think sticking harder springs on stock struts is nuts, seeing as how most of our cars stock struts are FAR gone by now. While the aftermarket springs will wear them out, ,tokicos will handle the new springs better than the stockers. For a while anyway.

You're right Adam. I'll give you that. They are a bit better than blown stockers regardless of the spring they're paired with, but they'll quickly be just as bad as the blown stockers b/c of the overpowering springs.

[nswst8]

Hey mark, whats up.

I have some Tokico springs brand new still in the box who would I take these to, to get the rates measured?

[3gmodifier]

what is this top hot mod. i have seen this said many times in the past but when i search i cant really find anything.

[turabaka]

https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthrea...ghlight=tophat

this thread is the how-to for the top hat mod. It took me awhile to find it too due to the word size limit. "top hat mod" isn't a valid search graaaaaahhhh.

[snoopyloopy]

https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthrea...ghlight=tophat

this thread is the how-to for the top hat mod. It took me awhile to find it too due to the word size limit. "top hat mod" isn't a valid search graaaaaahhhh.

quick, someone type "top hat mod" in that thread and presto it is valid.