IMPORTANT!! oil info

[Vanilla Sky]

Diesel oils will still have zinc. That means Mobil Delvac and Shell RotellaT would both still retain the zinc additive package.

The sky isn't falling, guys. Heavy duty and motorcycle oils will still have the zinc, and if not, there will be an additive. You can still buy lead substitute at Wal-Mart.

[2ndGenGuy]

Has Zinc been removed from Engine Oils?

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...otor_Oils.aspx

Question:
Has Zinc Been Removed from Motor Oils?
I am having thrust bearing failure in a 4.6 modified performance engine. This is a street/strip engine. Many of my friends are having the same problem. I think it is the result of the removal of zinc from the oil. I was told by two separate racing engine builders that the EPA ordered the removal of the zinc from over-the-counter motor oil. I use Mobil 1 5W-20. Is this true and do you think a zinc additive might help?
-- Randy Lovejoy, Americas, GA

Answer:
The active ingredient that you are talking about is phosphorus which is added thru a component called ZDDP. For products that meet the new ILSAC GF-4 specification the phosphorus levels for the oil must be less than 800 ppm phosphorus. The ILSAC level for phosphorus has been reduced to protect the catalytic converter and other emission protection equipment. The engine manufacturers are confident that this level of phosphorus will protect both new and older engines. However, there are Mobil 1 products which have a higher level of phosphorus (phos) and can be used in engines in racing or high performance applications; see the attached table.

[lostforawhile]

I know the sky isn't falling but this info needs to be passed on so we can continue to adjust the oil we use to deal with this. heres a quote from the HAMB

Originally Posted by hotroddon st
The Mobil 1 racing oil still has a very high content of Zinc and Phosperous. The 15w50 regular Mobil 1 also has very high levels. I still run these oils in all my stuff that I care about.
thank you for the info, i'm passing on this info to the site i belong to with the old imports, we all have flat tappets on our cams so this is a major concern to all of us. This site is always great on these topics and issues that come up. we are in the same boat as the guys who run solid lifters. been the same proven design since the seventies, now the oil companies have thrown a wrench in the works,or the valve train in this case.

i'll keep this updated, there is always a group of guys on there who watch the oils carefully and it's simply a matter of adjusting as needed. right now the mobile one racing oil is good, the rotella has actually had a lot of zinc removed so it's not as good as it was. I'm going to get a case of the brad Penn oil, it's the same as the old kendall oil, which was a dam good oil. A lot of oil manufactures are claiming it doesn't matter but a lot of guys are seeing damage. I tend to believe them over corporate america. they are the guys building the engines and them being damaged.

[2ndGenGuy]

The Starburst Oil Myth -- The latest myth promoted by the antique and collector car press says that new Starburst/ API SM engine oils (called Starburst for the shape of the symbol on the container) are bad for older engines because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).

Before debunking this myth, we need to look at the history of ZDP usage. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability.

ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942.

In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range.

In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests.

A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.

By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range.

However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

Enough history. Let's get back to the myth that Starburst oils are no good for older engines. The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.

The facts say otherwise.

Backward compatability was of great importance when the Starburst oil standards were developed by a group of experts from the OEMs, oil companies, and oil additive companies. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran no-harm tests on older engines with the new oils; and no problems were uncovered.

The new Starburst specification contains two valve-train wear tests. All Starburst oil formulations must pass these two tests.

- Sequence IVA tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger (not roller) followers.

- Sequence IIIG evaluates cam and lifter wear using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s.

Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)
Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.
Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.

Special thanks to GM's Techlink
- Thanks to Bob Olree – GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group

[lostforawhile]

I tend to listen to the guys who have spent a ton of time building their engines and are seeing damage first hand. the zinc phosphorus is also an extreme pressure anti wear additive,thats what keeps the rockers from eating the cam lobes. I'm just going to keep an eye on the oils and see what happens. these cars were built to use the oil oils that had the zinc content a lot higher. the main reason they are getting rid of it, is the goverment wants converters that last a lot longer. I'm sure they will have oils for bikes with the zinc in it, they have to nearly every harley on the road requires it. of course the oil comapanies say it's compatible, the automakers have them in their back pocket. the fact is the zinc gets used up, there is not enough left in the oil to last the life of the oil anymore.

[Tdurr]

good stuff here. I linked this page to a bigger website on the southside. Hopefully this will spark some solid info on the net. Ill deff be checking in on this everytime i get on.

[2ndGenGuy]

So you're saying that car manufacturers are trying to wear out their old cars to sell new cars? Who is going to buy a new car from the same brand if their old ones wore out prematurely? Seems like suicide to me.

And what are the oil companies going to get out of people building engines that wear out with their oils?

[lostforawhile]

So you're saying that car manufacturers are trying to wear out their old cars to sell new cars? Who is going to buy a new car from the same brand if their old ones wore out prematurely? Seems like suicide to me.

And what are the oil companies going to get out of people building engines that wear out with their oils?

na the oil companies are catering to the car companies they are required to make converters that last longer and longer, so the zinc had to go, I'm sure there will be oils compatible, but it's important to watch with these older engines. the car companies want the older cars off the road, then you are forced to buy a new one. it's afact that the guys with older engines are seeing more and more damage as the zinc and phosphurus levels drop, it's only going to get worse. best thing to do is use the additive, or find an oil with a good level in it, you'll just have to be very careful about what oils get used. most people don't even care they dump in whatever is cheapest.

[russiankid]

Would this apply to hydraulic lifters like on my BMW? Its OBDI.

[lostforawhile]

Would this apply to hydraulic lifters like on my BMW? Its OBDI.

it's mostly concerned with friction between flat surfaces, like the rocker to cams on the accords or in older engines , that had solid lifters. the missing additive helps prevent wear between the surfaces. and yes the car companies have a very big interest in getting older cars off the roads. they want you to buy new not fix old.

[2ndGenGuy]

Is there any proof that the reduced ZDP levels are causing premature wear? If what you're saying is right, then what about all the cars that are on the road now that have been running oil with the reduced ZDP for the last 10-15 years? I'm going to need some more evidence before I jump on the ZOMG BUY PREMIUM OILS AND ADDITIVES OR YOUR CAR WILL DIE bandwagon.

[russiankid]

Well thats bullshit. What if my old Accord just happens to purr like it just rolled off the assembly line? Not my fault, don't kill the damn thing for me fuckers.

[lostforawhile]

Is there any proof that the reduced ZDP levels are causing premature wear? If what you're saying is right, then what about all the cars that are on the road now that have been running oil with the reduced ZDP for the last 10-15 years? I'm going to need some more evidence before I jump on the ZOMG BUY PREMIUM OILS AND ADDITIVES OR YOUR CAR WILL DIE bandwagon.

it doesn't have to be a premium oil, there are still oils that have the additive out there. but the EPA has now decided it has to go in all new oils. there have been a lot of people who have been seeing more and more damage as the levels drop. A lot of performance engine builders will only use roller rockers now because of this. you can use any oil, but it's best to add the additive if it's one that is low on zinc. eventually i think it will be like cars that run leaded gas, and have to run lead substitute. it will come to a point of mixing up oils that have the additive added into them. i've been watching oils get worse and worse for older cars, it's just going to get a lot worse all at once. I'm probably going to order a couple of cases of Brad Penn, primamirly because it's really the old kendal oil, and it was one of the oils i always liked. one of the really outspoken groups on this are the air cooled vw guys, this additive is critical to their engines.

[lostforawhile]

This thread isn't to be a panic thing, it's for info on whats going on with this, just something that we all need to keep an eye on,whether it's finding compatible oils, or using additives or whatever we need to do.

[russiankid]

Is it me or this is really focused on performance engines? If you're running a performance engine, you shouldn't be cheaping out on oil in the first place.

Also, whats the difference between cam lobes rolling around to roller rockers in the oil? If the cam lobes will wear down, which are round, than roller rockers will wear down.

[lostforawhile]

Is it me or this is really focused on performance engines? If you're running a performance engine, you shouldn't be cheaping out on oil in the first place.

Also, whats the difference between cam lobes rolling around to roller rockers in the oil? If the cam lobes will wear down, which are round, than roller rockers will wear down.

roller rockers have a lot less friction, they roll on the cams surface rather then scrape on it. on flat rockers like our cars, there is a lot of friction between the flat part of the rocker and the cam. the cam is really pressing on the flat area with a lot of force. it gets a lot worse if you have a different cam or stronger springs. as far as performance engines, in the domestic market, these would be considered performance engines if they had been built by american companies. they are high revving and have dual valve springs and soilid rockers.

[Vanilla Sky]

You really shouldn't be building a flat-tappet motor anyway. Roller is the way to go. Less friction and better wear characteristics.

[cygnus x-1]

Oh wow. Just last week I stopped by the local speed shop to see what the story was with my header (long sad story for another day) and I happened to ask the guy what the deal was with all these cases of oil he had sitting around the shop. So he proceeds into this story about how this particular oil is the last one to have the old levels of zinc additives. Well guess what brand it was? Brad Penn! The green oil!

So his take was pretty much what has been discussed so far, except that according to him the zinc phosphate levels in oils changed significantly at least a year ago. He said about a year ago they had built a couple solid cam follower engines that trashed their cams almost immediately during break in, and that they couldn't find any other cause since they had built these same engines before and not had a problem. Since then they have switched to using the Penn Grade oil during break in and haven't had a single problem since. I mentioned to him that my old Honda engine had solid followers and that I hadn't had a problem yet, and he said that from his experience it was only at break in where you might have a problem. Once the cam is worn in to the followers you can use regular oil and it should be ok.

I don't recall anyone on this board trashing a new cam so I'm guessing we are probably ok for now (not that that's even remotely a large enough sample size, but it's something). Although as a safety measure it might be a good idea to use a high ZDP content oil during engine break in or when replacing a cam.

As I recall the shop here was selling the Brad Penn stuff for like $5/qt, which is about what Mobil 1 synthetic goes for. I think for the next oil change on the Prelude I might try some just for giggles.

C|

[turabaka]

has any talked to bisimoto about making roller rockers for out cars, or is he only going to be making cams?

[cygnus x-1]

You really shouldn't be building a flat-tappet motor anyway. Roller is the way to go. Less friction and better wear characteristics.

If you have that option... which we don't.

Maybe if Bisi' gets busy* (pun acknowledged!) and makes us some roller rockers we would buy them!

C|


* No disrespect to Bisi' of course. I'm sure he's plenty busy with more lucrative markets than the miniscule number of A20 enthusiasts.

[lostforawhile]

you can get a case of 12 from engine pro for 45 plus 15 dollars freight. as far as I know the EPA rules don't apply to racing oils, so it might have to be those from now on. they will probably have the standard warning about pollution control vechicles though.

[Tdurr]

i put in a cam not too long ago, and when i was talking to the delta ppl on the phone, they told me to go buy some zinc additive to put in the car for the breakin period. I deff did that and the car is running fine still. Also, summit does sell some additive stuff, i saw it in my new mag I got from them last night. Ill post up the part number later when i can.

[MessyHonda]

i put in a cam not too long ago, and when i was talking to the delta ppl on the phone, they told me to go buy some zinc additive to put in the car for the breakin period. I deff did that and the car is running fine still. Also, summit does sell some additive stuff, i saw it in my new mag I got from them last night. Ill post up the part number later when i can.

i was reading mine yesterday too

[cubert]

has any talked to bisimoto about making roller rockers for out cars, or is he only going to be making cams?

If you have that option... which we don't.

Maybe if Bisi' gets busy* (pun acknowledged!) and makes us some roller rockers we would buy them!

C|


* No disrespect to Bisi' of course. I'm sure he's plenty busy with more lucrative markets than the miniscule number of A20 enthusiasts.

Has anyone purchased a bisi cam yet? I dunno if he would wanna produce something like that if he isnt even selling the cams that hes making.

[turabaka]

To be honest I don't really need the cams, but if he made roller rockers and valve springs I'd buy them for sure. I'm really hoping that Bisi's working on those for us.