Suspension newbie

[AC439]

OK, I definitely claim myself as a suspension newbie and I have the least experience in this area.

So far, for suspensions, I have only changed out all the UCA with ball joints (front and rear), the outer tie rod ends with ball joints.

I am battling with front end vibrations at 75mph. Tires were checked and balanced multiple times to rule out the cause. It is definitely suspension worn out. I changed out the front UCAs and it has helped a lot but the vibration is still there but to a lesser degree. Both axles are intact. However, the bushings are likely original as well as the struts (well, at least for as long as I have own the car for 150k miles).

I don't have much money to spend but I'm changing things one at a time. I think the lower ball joints are probably worn but when I shake the wheels, I don't feel plays.

I know the struts need to be replaced. The rear pass side strut make noise when the car is moving.

There are way too many bushings in our cars and I get confused with them. Also, I know I'm going to miss some kind of bushings or parts if I ONLY buy the struts (like the dust barrel ?, strut top bushings ? lower strut bushings ?)

Ok, what should I replace next for front end vibrations at 75mph ? (Wheels balanced already, UCA replaced and has helped but not eliminated, the bushing on the big side of the "dog bone" wrapped with material to a snug fit) Possible uneven worn front brake discs (those were bought from Advanced years ago) ?

Thanks. -AC

[86AccordLxi]

Did you get the car aligned?

[codyJDM]

Alignment out of whack and deteriorated front and rear motor mounts could cause this.

[86AccordLxi]

I would expect motor mounts to cause a shimmy.

Tie rods ends could be shot, though.

[AC439]

Tie rod ends were replaced (after the walmart technician point out the worn ball joints).

Yes, it has been aligned. But I did it myself on the flat horizontal driveway and the toes front and back were checked multiple times with the car rolled to various spots on the driveway and all readings were consistent. I have the toe set to perfect parallel. Tire wear doesn't suggest any excessive toe in or toe out problem.

I have the engine mount replaced about 120k miles ago by a tech (I know, the rubbers are probably gone now). Is it possible to change the mounts myself without an engine lift ? What is the proper way to check worn out engine mount?

Thanks.

[MessyHonda]

if you get lots of vibrations at idle you need new motor mounts

[car6289]

AC439:

Another source of front end vibration could be the lower control arm bushings, considering the other things you have changed / checked and the mileage on your car.

"the bushing on the big side of the "dog bone" wrapped with material to a snug fit" What part is it that you refer to as a "dog bone"? I've spent a significant amount of time under the front end of 3rd gen Accords and have never seen any canine skeletal parts.

[LX-incredible]

Did you use new uca bushings? Does the sound get worse in a gradual turn? That would be a wheel bearing.


#7 is the "dog bone".

[snoopyloopy]

Did you use new uca bushings? Does the sound get worse in a gradual turn? That would be a wheel bearing.


#7 is the "dog bone".

if you change #7, see if you can't rig up something like guaynobo and you can use the ones on ebay that are dampered.

[car6289]

#7 it is. I now know some dog anatomy in relation to my Accord. This is the rear torque rod (dog bone), part of the engine mounting/isolation system. Correct me if I'm wrong, this torque rod is not tight (its mounting bolts are though) in that it allows the engine to twist slightly under load before the rubber in this mount begins to resist the torque of the engine. I don't know if this would be a major contributing factor in AC439's battle with front end vibrations at 75MPH. As was mentioned by MessyHonda excess vibration at idle points toward worn engine mounts. In AC439's case isolating the exact cause could require methodical replacement of all those damn rubber mounts and bushings until the vibration goes away.

[LX-incredible]

Get up to speed, put the car in neutral and coast. That will tell if it's the mounts or not. I doubt that it is.
Where did he say he was having vibrations at idle?

[Hauntd ca3]

anyone tort of the intermediate shaft bearing
mine had a vibe and it turned out the bearing was a bit sloppy
swapped it out, no more vibes

[LX-incredible]

We didn't get those here, different motor.

[Hauntd ca3]

so you guys have a big long drive shaft on the drivers side and dont have the intermediate mount?
must torque steer like a mutha

[LX-incredible]

Lilbit.

[Hauntd ca3]

shit, the b20a tprque steers a bit with one, hate to imagine what i'd be like with out one.
full throttle lane changes.lol

[3gmodifier]

if you have already replaced your UCA's and tie rods, the next thing that i would suggest is a possible warped front brake rotor or shot front wheel bearings. i have replaced both front wheel bearings along with the UCA's and tie rods. that fixed every thing wrong with my coupe. try jacking the car off the ground and grab a front wheel at 9 and 3 o'clock and push and pull in and out. that will give you a basic diagnosis as to tie rod play. then do the same but while doing it at 12 and 6 o'clock. that will give you a basic diagnosis as to the wheel bearing condition. if ther is any movement( slack or play) in the wheel bearing, no matter how small, that will deffinatly give you a driving vibration. hope this helps.

p.s. dont forget to check the radious rods. if either of the 2 bushings( located ware the rods mounts to the front subframe, coming off the front lower control arm) are worn out, cracked, or deteriorated, that may cause a vibration as well because the front wheels may be shifting forward or back under various torque loads.

[AC439]

Thanks for replies. After reading all the comments, this is exactly the situation I'm afraid of - everything is a possibility and too many parts to change. Of course, I understand the car is 23 years old and I literally have to change out everything to restore the suspension.

The dog bone I'm referring to is item #7 on the diagram.

I have done the 3&9 o'clock and the 12&6 o'clock test and don't feel play after chaning out the UCAa and the outer tie-rods/balljoints. The LCA/balljoint have not been changed though.

The vibration comes usually (not always) when the car is at 75mph. It doesn't feel like a out of balance wheel vibration - it is not very regular (the out of balance wheel shakes with a regular rhythm) and feels coming from the front of the car (not just from the steering wheel). Also, there are times when the car reaches 75mph but there is no noticable increase of abnormal vibration.

At idle in gear (it is an A/T), I definitely feel the virbation. But I usually put the gear to N when waiting at the red light. In N, there are still some vibrations coming from the front but is a lot less. Definitely, when put it in D at stop, the vibration is very obvious compare to new cars that you don't feel any vibrations when put in D while stop.

When it rides over bumps (such as rail road tracks), definitely it gives me a "something is loose" feeling but overall, this "feeling" has been about the same at least for the past 6-7 years.

I usually do the brakes myself. The discs were replaced with advanced auto disc but it was a while ago. But again, the virbation is not like coming from the unbalaned wheel.

I did look up the cost of some of the parts and read posts about changing them. I know LCA bushings need to be pressed in/out. I'm not sure about struts because I have never replaced one. I know I need the spring compressor and the job sounds kind of dangerous (possible the spring break off the compression tool and can hit me etc). Then the radius rods and the bushing to me is like a mistery (don't think other cars use this design). So, I'm pretty much lost here.

When I went to the tire shop about 10,000 miles ago for a new pair of front tires. I saw three mechanics checking and revving the engine and were talking about something like broken motor mount (amount themselves, not talking to me). So, I think this may be something I need to look into first, right ??? Almost forgot to mention, the motor mounts were changed by a mechanic long time ago - over 120-130k (maybe even 140k) miles ago as long as I can remember. I still have the receipt for the motor mount change but the mechanic didn't record the mileage when he changed it. It was dated 1/24/95 !!! He put $38.66 for parts cost so I doubt if all the three rubbers were replaced. I remember after he changed them, I felt less vibrations when idling.

Also, is there a thread or how to for changing motor mount? I have search and don't see one. Nor the FSM mention changing them. The FSM only talks about removing the engine. Is it an easy job? Should I replace all three of them (front, left side and rear) ? I looked around the price and seems like rockauto is the cheapest but I have bad experience with them selling me a part listed for my car (but it turned out isn't) and they refuse to take full responsibility. Has anyone used the mounts from them before ? I know there may be better mounts out there but I need to be very cost conscious at this time.

Thanks and sorry for long post. -AC

[car6289]

AC439:

The railway tracks something loose feeling on my 89LX was the lower control arm bushings. The inner ones were both completely shot. Yes they must be pressed in and out with a hydraulic press. My employer just happens to have one that came in very handy for the bushing replacement. As I said previously you will have to go methodically through the process of replacing most if not all the engine and suspension rubber mounts and bushings in the front end of your car. While you are replacing all of those degraded rubber things a new set of shocks wouldn't hurt. Yes a spring compressor is required for this job, or a friend who works for a local auto dealership to do the shock changeover is also a nice perk.

What you should start with in the replacement department is the lingering question? Take a few things apart in the front suspension and see if a more detailed inspection reveals any anomalies beyond what the 3&9 and 6&12 shake test revealed. It will cost you nothing but time, but will be time well spent. It's a cheaper approach than loading the parts cannon and firing every replaceable front end part at the car at once. Replace only that which requires replacement and hopefully your vibration disappears.

[LX-incredible]

I would only go with honda motor mounts. Most of the rest of that junk is made in china. Procedure is fairly simple and can be done without a engine hoist if need be. Be sure to tighten the mounts in the order prescribed in the shop manual.

Does the vibration at 75 increase when in a turn?

[markmdz89hatch]

(edit: holy shit this is a huge reply. if you can make it through the whole thing, I think there's some useful stuff in here.)

I'm with car6289 on this. BTW, welcome to the board Car. You seem to really know your stuff in this department, so please stick around.

AC --> As Car mentioned, if you packed that upper mount (dog-bone), you basically created a solid mount. What this means is that instead of the mount absorbing engine/tranny vibrations, they're being transferred through it right to the mounting point on the firewall.

You also mentioned that you have not yet changed out the shocks, while it does seem that you've had the car for some time, and have some 130+K miles on it. That tells me that those shocks have at least that for mileage on them. Couple the mileage with their age, and you've got recipe for replacement on those. Those are very likely a culprit for some of this loose feeling. Not so much just the shock, but the little biscuit bushings in the top-hat of the shock. While you're right that you'll need a spring compressor, and that it can get dangerous if you don't seat the compressor correctly on the coil, swapping out shocks is a fairly easy task, and does not (usually) take very long either. A spring compressor can be rented from AutoZone for about $20 (last I checked) and once you return it, you'll be refunded the entire amount. (It's a free tool loaner program, but requires a 'deposit' to ensure you return the tool.)

Also, as car mentioned, a visual and/or 'shake' inspection can yield some answers which may help you reduce your costs up front, or at least help identify which of the worn parts to replace first. A bad ball-joint is usually very easy to spot. 90% of the time, a bad ball-joint will have a cracked rubber boot and a grease accumulation all over it (courtesy of the grease oozing out of the boot). They do not always fail the 'shake test' even if the boot is torn/cracked/leaking. The absence of grease is like an old man with arthritis. There's nothing to lube the joint, so it's metal on metal, causing a stretching of the ball-socket. Eventually that stretching will allow the ball to disengage from the socket, and (speaking from experience) that's not a good scenario.

Bad lca bushings will be easily identified by deteriorated/cracking rubber around the center sleeve. Sometimes with our cars, the bushing dies a shitty death not because the rubber is deteriorated, but because the thru bolt that holds it to the lower fork, or sub-frame, is seized up from rust, and does not allow the minor pivoting that is required for everything to work right. Another good idea is to jack the car up from the center engine cross-member (I usually put the jack's cup right on the tow hookup), then remove the nut at the end of each thru bolt and ensure that you can use a wrench/socket to spin the bold freely in the bushing. (Don't take the bolt out though, as it'll be a bitch to put back in right now.)

Engine mounts are also a fairly easy replacement task as long as you have an extra jack or the car is on jack-stands because you'll need to jack the engine up (from the oil pan, or where the tranny/engine mate). Replacing these do not require the removal of the engine, nor an engine hoist. Don't forget though, you don't just have the front, rear (dog-bone) and side, you also have a lower rear (two separate pieces) and lower center. If I'm not mistaken, some auto's (don't quote me on this though) also had a side mount as well.

The radius rod bushings are massive rubber bushings at the end of the rod (hence radius rod) that connects the front crossmember to the lca. Those are also a 'biscuit' style bushing where the rod goes right through it and gets pancaked into the x-member by way of a big washer and nut that threads on the end of the radius rod. Be careful when/if you choose to inspect those though, as those will directly correlate to your toe adjustment, so loosening or tightening them will adjust toe. You would have to remove the nut to inspect the bushing.

There are many tests you can to do help identify the worst of the worst and go from there.

Finally you mentioned that you've done the diy way of alignment, and while a good eye can get it damn close, if not perfect, IMO there's still nothing better than a computerized alignment at a good shop. In many cases, the tech will be more then willing to let you in the shop and show you how/where all adjustments are made, and how each effects what (toe, camber, track, etc.).

What tires/wheels are you on right now?

[AC439]

Thanks a bunch ! You guys rock !!!!!

(1) I think I will have to revisit the 3-9 & 12-6 shaking test again.

(2) The vibration does not seem to increase in a turn while driving at 75mph, at least for most part the road is pretty straight. There are some curves on my daily commute route but at 75mph, those curves are still relatively straight. I probably won't make a sharp turn if I'm going this fast !

(3) I'm pretty sure the lower ball joints are bad though shake test didn't review it (but I'll check again tomorrow). Definitely the grease boots are broken.

(4) For the radius rod, I expect adjusting it will change the toe because shortening it will pull the LCA forward and vise versa.

(5) I think I have identified all the engine mounts. When I checked the front mount earlier, I noticed it is like compressed or collapsed. When I look at a picture of it from advance auto or autozone, it looks taller but mine seems shorter. I briefly measured my front mount from bottom plate to the top flat surface is a little shy of 3 inches. I know it is hydraulic so I think maybe it has broken already and all fluid has leaken out. I think maybe I should take it out and inspect it to be sure ?

(6) I'm really pissed with the alignment shops. 4 out of 5 times the alignment did not done right. For example, they never center the steering wheel, they only adjust one side of the tie-rod for toe so the toe can be right but the steering wheel off. I always have to hand adjust afterwards if they didn't center the steering wheel and I'm always able to center it perfectly after 3 trials. I know the computer should be more accurate but the human errors (careless) involved can more than able to offset the benefits of the computer alignment. I also think I should have good ball joints and bushings before worth taken the car for a computer alignment. When I do hand alignment on driveway, I measure everything at least 3 times, with the car roll back and forth and bounce the struts and always have consistent measurement.

(7) The wheels are original 13" with 185/70R13 tires.

I'm going to take some pictures of the parts and post them here. Thanks again !

-AC

[LX-incredible]

I was just talking about a gradual turn or bend in the road. When I've experienced bad wheel bearings they've always made more noise/vibration while turning, especially in the direction of the problematic side.

I've found that you need to specify that the steering wheel be centered when turning your car over to those places. It doesn't cost any extra, just lets the mechanic know that he needs to make adjustments to both sides.

If you wrapped the dogbone, you're going to notice substantially more vibrations. From what I've noticed it's there mostly to protect the other mounts under load. Even with new bushings it should have some play in it.

[AC439]

Definitely understood you were asking about gradual turns. Yeah, I have specified centered steering wheel before, but still, you know, there are some people can do a more detail oriented job but some aren't.

The wrapping of the dog bone is what recommended by other members after I posted that I noted there are play on the engine side. So, I gave it a try and see what is the difference. But due to the other worn or loosen parts/bushings, I have been unable to tell the difference. I do think the play there are by design, especially when I looked at the shape of the bushing. It seems to me the design is to give some slack and cushion when the engine twists. So, I may just go and unwrap it.

[Hauntd ca3]

wellif the front mount dosnt look right, replace it just to be sure
only takes 10mins with minimal tools so is easy as
that would cause vibes, especially under load, like sitting at the lights in drive.
they arnt all that expensive so is prob not a bad place to start