EL Timing Belt woes...

[denhonda]

Aside from my post about the cam/rockershafts... my EL engined '82 has never run right since Honda replaced the timing belt. It starts with difficulty, idles okay but dies when given throttle. The dealer said the carburation was at fault so I replaced the carb & it still ran the same... like shit. As such the car hasn't turned a wheel since, so its about time I fixed it myself !

I took the top timing cover off to expose the camshaft sprocket, turned the engine to TDC to check that things lined up. My car being a Hondamatic, according to the shop manual, I use the red marker on the torque convertor to line up to the pointer...

I then checked the camshaft sprocket against the cylinder head mark & almost unfortunately it all appeared to line up.

Now I read before (probably on here!) that you need to get your eye line right low to make the sure the markers line up... and it appears that they are indeed out...

So with the belt looking like its a tooth out, how do I adjust it, or do I have to strip the whole lot out & start from scratch? Is there anyway of getting the tension off without stripping everything...

[2ndGenGuy]

A single tooth out probably won't cause huge problems like you're describing, but it will cause a little bit of power loss. Should still be totally drivable.

Now the question is where are the cam sprocket markers lined up? If you're looking at the sprocket from the left side of the car, on the head immediately to the left is a little arrow. That arrow is what you should be lining the markers up with, NOT the top of the cylinder head like the newer Hondas.

Some of the sprockets have two sets of marks on them. In that case, one set should line up with the arrows and the other set should line up with the top of the cylinder head.

I do believe this makes the "UP" point slightly towards the front of the car.

If you do want to do the timing belt anyways, you should have no problem just loosening the tensioner, pulling the belt off the top sprocket and turning the cam and lining it back up. I've done it before myself, it's kind of a pain in the ass, but it can be done. Just make sure the tensioner is completely loose. The bolt for it should protrude out from the lower timing belt cover.

[2oodoor]

you may want to have the ignition timing checked before you look at the cam sprocket timing, then if it does not get better then look at the cam sprocket timing followed by the ignition timing check once again.

[denhonda]

Thanks for your advice guys

From the left side of the car I lined up the cam sproket up with the little arrow on the head, and you're right... the UP was then slightly forward. There is apparently meant to be another marker on the centre of the sprocket but I never spotted it... Anyway with this perfect, TDC on the torque convertor was then way out.

I saw a couple of odd looking bolts that could well be for the tensioner so I'll have a go at them next time round.

I suppose it would be sensible to do the ignition timing first but I'm consious of the fact the only thing that changed between the car running okay & it running like crap was the renewal of the timing belt. I'll probably just do the belt first, then the iginition timing after, then check the carb again, then finally a service. Should be on the road sometime soon-ish !!

[2ndGenGuy]

Do the timing marks on the cam pulley line up with the top of the head when the crank is at TDC? I bet that's what they did. I never even noticed the arrow on the head until I read about it in one of my Honda Engine building books.

[Ichiban]

Yeah, you have to really get your face in there to see it line up properly. The timing marks are somewhere around 8 o'clock on the head/timing gear. Always do the ignition timing afterwards, as changes in cam timing should directly affect ignition timing as well.

[2ndGenGuy]

Speaking of timing, I wonder why my EK1 from 1981 runs a 0 degree base timing, while the 83 EK1 runs a 15ish degree btdc base timing. What is the base ignition timing for your EL engines?

[denhonda]

5 degrees for models > '80... & 3 degrees to 7 degrees for '81 > on models.

Just read that out the manual... basically means nothing to me but I'm sure I'll be learning about this stuff over the next few weeks!

How do I know when the crank is at TDC?

Not off till next weekend due to my stupid company making us work 12 days on, 2 days off but I'd liked to be fully versed with what I should be doing before getting stuck in. I think I'll get a look at my spare engine to see what thats all about!

[Ichiban]

Speaking of timing, I wonder why my EK1 from 1981 runs a 0 degree base timing, while the 83 EK1 runs a 15ish degree btdc base timing. What is the base ignition timing for your EL engines?

I dunno, mine has a big "T", and a red line about 8? degrees earlier.

[denhonda]

I dunno, mine has a big "T", and a red line about 8? degrees earlier.

Oh I get ya... yeh mine is the same... I was getting confused!

[denhonda]

Well I made some progress on the car yesterday...

I stripped down what I could get away with & slipped the belt off the cam sprocket, rightly or wrongly turned the crank through a cycle to line TDC up again, fitted up the belt & put everything back together. I installed a freshly charged battery & after a little time for the petrol to feed through, it started & ran sort of okay!

So thats a success.

The car ran without choke, which it didn't do before & could be driven after a fashion... with no brakes! WTF??

The petrol in the tank is 3 years old so that might be the reason its unwilling to rev cleanly & also the carb isn't the correct one. I reinstalled a spare correct one but it leaked petrol from the inlet so I'm gonna fix that. I reinstalled the original one & that pissed out petrol from somewhere else (the one the test garage f*cked up whilst trying to do the emissions... arseholes!!!) so thats getting chucked!

I've got a fresh gasket set & will do a kitchen table top rebuild on it soon. I've pulled then to bits before & put them back together with successful results so hopefully the old Keihin will finally save the day!

Now, wtf is up with my brakes? No obvious leaks from each corner, the reservoir is empty so is it likely to be the master cylinder? And where would the fluid have disappeared to? May be this car needs it own thread... its looking like its gonna be a rebuild project already!

[2ndGenGuy]

If your calipers and wheel cylinders aren't leaking, and you can't find the lines, it's possible that the brake fluid is leaking out into the booster. That could cause it to get sucked into the intake and burn up causing weird running issues, depending on the amount. Or at least some smoke.

[Ichiban]

Well I made some progress on the car yesterday...

I stripped down what I could get away with & slipped the belt off the cam sprocket, rightly or wrongly turned the crank through a cycle to line TDC up again, fitted up the belt & put everything back together. I installed a freshly charged battery & after a little time for the petrol to feed through, it started & ran sort of okay!

So thats a success.

The car ran without choke, which it didn't do before & could be driven after a fashion... with no brakes! WTF??

The petrol in the tank is 3 years old so that might be the reason its unwilling to rev cleanly & also the carb isn't the correct one. I reinstalled a spare correct one but it leaked petrol from the inlet so I'm gonna fix that. I reinstalled the original one & that pissed out petrol from somewhere else (the one the test garage f*cked up whilst trying to do the emissions... arseholes!!!) so thats getting chucked!

I've got a fresh gasket set & will do a kitchen table top rebuild on it soon. I've pulled then to bits before & put them back together with successful results so hopefully the old Keihin will finally save the day!

Now, wtf is up with my brakes? No obvious leaks from each corner, the reservoir is empty so is it likely to be the master cylinder? And where would the fluid have disappeared to? May be this car needs it own thread... its looking like its gonna be a rebuild project already!

Yeah, I've found that the master cylinder likes to fill the brake booster with brake fluid. Although mine did it after I started driving it again, not while it sat for 2+ years enduring the rebuild. I'm sure you've read the thread.

I've also found that two gaskets in particular like to fail on the fuel system. The first is the accelerator pump diaphragm gasket seal, the carb pukes fuel everywhere as soon as the float bowl fills, the second is the main body gasket on the fuel pump. I actually burnt an 84 hatch completely to the ground because this seal failed, allowing gas to run down the pump body into the end cap, where a set of breaker points happily ignited the fuel. Yes, your fuel pump creates a spark every time it cycles, safe eh?

I also noticed my tires decomposed rather rapidly after sitting (inside, no less) and I still haven't fixed the coolant valve for the heater (stuck wide open). They seem to seize after even a month of sitting.

[denhonda]

Well I've rebuilt the replacement carb which tbh, didn't really need anything doing to it. The float chamber was one of the cleanest I've seen as they're usually rusty on ones I've seen over here leading to major running problems. I replaced the gasket, cleared the jets out with carb cleaner & refitted it all the other night & now there are no leaks.

The car started once the fuel came though & idled nicely, but it still wants to die when revved - but it's better than it was before. If you raise the revs gradually its okay but if you give it a prod it kinda gasps. Still it was nice to have moving under its own power after so long.

The fuel is old, the filter needs changed & the master cylinder is empty, so there's a few things I can be kept busy with trying to resolve... not to mention the horrific rust i dscovered at the bottom of the o/s A-post!

I'll post up some pics in due course.

[accord83]

Keep up the good work, you'll get there eventually!!!

[2ndGenGuy]

Good progress. Pics indeed! Maybe it's an ignition thing that's causing it to stumble when you mob the gas pedal?