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Thread: These damn f*cking valve springs....

  1. #26


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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    tdurr... ...the point is just to find out if there is a difference between model and year A20 (PJ0) heads.

    pico... ...that's a major part of the reason I really went digging here. Those pics of tdurrs retainers on the bisi spring scares the shit out of me. I'd like to show that pic to any reputable machine shop around here, then quickly take a step back to dodge the bitchslap coming my way. So the quick answer to your question is YES, I would ONLY use the bisi springs with the larger retainers pictured in A20A3's pic in my first post. ...and it's looking like that's from an 86-87.

    Those outer springs need more than just a washer at their seat. Then need a step on the seat to keep the spring centered on the stem. The inner should also have a locator (second step) to keep them on center, and keep them from scrubbing the inside of the springs and/or thrashing the seals and stems. Same goes for the retainers. As you can see in the pics I posted up in my first few posts, the stock retainers for the larger springs (which it's looking like are found on the 86-87's only, and still pending the exact models from 86-87), have what looks very much like a locator which would keep the center spring where it belongs, and it would work perfectly with the outer springs.
    Last edited by markmdz89hatch; 04-10-2009 at 08:10 PM.
    -Mark D.




  2. #27
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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    The machinist + my friend who works there said it was fine. It is covering more the 50% and if it wasn't i wouldn't want to run them at all. If i run across a few motors ate the JY, ill yank the exhaust sides off, but it is holding up fine.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by markmdz89hatch View Post
    Those pics of tdurrs retainers on the bisi spring scares the shit out of me. I'd like to show that pic to any reputable machine shop around here, then quickly take a step back to dodge the bitchslap coming my way.
    go ahead and ask a few shop. i dont mind u using the pic.
    But you have to remember that the top retainer is tapered also. On both the intake and exhaust sides. when the springs were tested for lbs ratings, we put the top on them and it compressed straight, no kinks or binds.
    Last edited by Tdurr; 04-10-2009 at 08:09 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAH View Post
    pullin up turbo spoolin fast lookin fly like a 3g like a 3g like a 3g

  3. #28


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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tdurr View Post
    The machinist + my friend who works there said it was fine. It is covering more the 50% and if it wasn't i wouldn't want to run them at all. If i run across a few motors ate the JY, ill yank the exhaust sides off, but it is holding up fine.

    Edit:


    go ahead and ask a few shop. i dont mind u using the pic.
    But you have to remember that the top retainer is tapered also. On both the intake and exhaust sides. when the springs were tested for lbs ratings, we put the top on them and it compressed straight, no kinks or binds.
    I agree that the straight compression and lb testing was a great idea. And the fact that bisi did the opposite coil direction on the inner spring, is the key to keeping it from binding. Not sure what you mean about the retainer being tapered though.

    Also man, I'm not trying to slam you or that head or call anyone stupid, so I just want to make sure you know that. I'm just saying that I personally don't see how that could work for any length of time, and saying that if it were me, I'd never do that just because I wouldn't trust it on my car.
    -Mark D.


  4. #29
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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    some pics i found of the my old 88 accords head.


    you would have to ask Shane (84accord) for the head number


    88 accord LX-i A20A3 engine










    ill get some pics of the jdm 86 a20a head tomarrow hopefully

    1988 Honda Accord LX-i Coupe 123k miles.

  5. #30


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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....



    I took this since I have a pretty bad scratch in my cam on this lobe.










    This one is the head on the bench I think its carbed but actually I cant remember.



    wp
    Last edited by Oldblueaccord; 04-11-2009 at 05:55 PM.
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  6. #31
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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    Quote Originally Posted by markmdz89hatch View Post
    I agree that the straight compression and lb testing was a great idea. And the fact that bisi did the opposite coil direction on the inner spring, is the key to keeping it from binding. Not sure what you mean about the retainer being tapered though.

    Also man, I'm not trying to slam you or that head or call anyone stupid, so I just want to make sure you know that. I'm just saying that I personally don't see how that could work for any length of time, and saying that if it were me, I'd never do that just because I wouldn't trust it on my car.

    I never took any offense to that at all dont worry, i know you are just concerned. But I did go to the jy today and just grabbed 8 exhaust tops, then when i got home i remembered that i might have needed the keepers... so do I? If not ill try and get the parts installed next week some time.

    and what i mean by tapered, is it has 2 steps like the seats and retainers on the exhaust side.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAH View Post
    pullin up turbo spoolin fast lookin fly like a 3g like a 3g like a 3g

  7. #32


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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tdurr View Post
    I never took any offense to that at all dont worry, i know you are just concerned. But I did go to the jy today and just grabbed 8 exhaust tops, then when i got home i remembered that i might have needed the keepers... so do I? If not ill try and get the parts installed next week some time.

    and what i mean by tapered, is it has 2 steps like the seats and retainers on the exhaust side.
    gotcha. that's cool man.

    as for the keepers, I'm still on the fence on that one. ...I guess that's one more thing that needs to be checked out. For now I'll say this. If you pulled 8 retainers from the exhaust side, those keepers are made for a 6.90mm stem, while the keepers for the intake valves are made for the stock 6.54mm stems. But it's not just a matter of using the intake keepers on the exhaust retainers because the center tapered hole for the keepers is a different diameter. Let me tinker with mine for a day or so and I'll come back to you with what I think I'll do if I'm stuck in that situation after I'm done with all this. Did you happen to see if there were any 86-87 3G's there? If so, did you take a peek at the intake springs by any chance? Also, not to further complicate things, if you want to use the exhaust retainers, I wonder if the spring ID and OD [diameter] (both inner and outer springs) are very similar to the stock exhaust. If not, you could run into an issue with the retainers 1st step diameter and locator diameter.

    Harvey --> Do you have a caliper? If so, can you measure the stem diameter on your intake valves?

    OldBlue and CAH --> Can you both confirm that those pics are all from 88 or 89 heads?
    Last edited by markmdz89hatch; 04-11-2009 at 08:14 PM.
    -Mark D.


  8. #33
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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    I can say that the springs diameter are close to the stock exhaust diameter. They look to be seated very well on both the top and bottoms. and thats a interesting bit a of info for the stems. I could grab a caliper and get a reading on the intake stem on the bent valve i have(lol). And i completely forgot to look at the intake springs. Next time i go ill grab a camera and take some pics.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAH View Post
    pullin up turbo spoolin fast lookin fly like a 3g like a 3g like a 3g

  9. #34


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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    schweet. You should get the same or very close to 6.54mm on the intake valve stems as long as you have the itty bitty retainers as in your picture, and as in just about every single pic posted in this thread. ...but I'm very interested in knowing the stem diameter on the intake valve stems that use the larger retainers as what Harvey (username: A20A3) has pictured in my first post.
    -Mark D.


  10. #35
    3Geez Veteran Pico's Avatar
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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    if I get the chance tomorrow, I'll take my valve cover off and take some pics of my head.
    Gives me a good reason to adjust my valves.
    In the mean time I dont know if these will help but these are pics of my head when I installed my Delta Cam



  11. #36
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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    So i realized im dumb. I have 2 sets of intake keepers and 2 intake valves. So i just did a test fit using the exhaust retainer and it fits snug. I pulled as hard as i fucking could on them and no budge at all. I figured it wouldn't be a problem because the keeper and the retainer are both v-shaped to wedge itself and to keep it from popping out.
    ill have some cellphone pics in a second.
    Edit: Cant find the SD card reader, so pics tomorrow. ill use a friends camera.
    Last edited by Tdurr; 04-11-2009 at 08:42 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAH View Post
    pullin up turbo spoolin fast lookin fly like a 3g like a 3g like a 3g

  12. #37

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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    Just spent the day at 2 yards, looking at about 30 accord heads.

    The larger seats and retainers only came on the 86-87 models. All models in 86 had them, about half of the 87 models had them. Isn't dependent on being FI or carbed, just the manufacture date.

    Exhaust seats and 86 intake retainers seem like the best option for the intake. I'll post some pictures tomorrow.
    88 LX-i coupe auto (241K DD), 88 LX-i coupe 5-speed, 89 SE-i coupe auto.
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    who is tim and where can i get naughty pictures of him?
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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    Quote Originally Posted by markmdz89hatch View Post

    OldBlue and CAH --> Can you both confirm that those pics are all from 88 or 89 heads?
    im pretty sure the engine in the car was original and the car was a 88 LX-i but i cant grantee it was never replaced as i only had records back to 2000. if you need the head code i could ask shane (84accord) to check it and see it what it says


    and i know I'm lagging on getting pics of the 86 JDM A20A head but its been cold and rainy out so i haven't been in the mood to go out in the garage

    1988 Honda Accord LX-i Coupe 123k miles.

  14. #39
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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    You need to be really carefull with the keepers and which ones you use, the retainers on the exhaust size use a larger keeper as the valves are bigger they also sit in a different position to the inlet ones as well they are much higher on the valve so this may make the spring too weak?

    In my opinion your best option is too scout around for some 2nd Gen Accord ET1 heads maybe ES1 might have them but the ET1 definately comes with double springs so has the retainers and platforms and keepers that will work 100% reliably, another option is maybe using Prelude ET ones they are not wedge shaped but flat so won't need washers and should work quite well with the Bisi springs.

    Hope this helps.

    If anyone ones some pics of prelude platforms and retainers and the ET1 ones just let me know I'll see what i can dig out from my hundreds of spares and take a few pics.

  15. #40

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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    rjudgey, I am glad to see you posted a structured paragraph! Much easier on the eyes.

    /back on topic
    Andrew.

    My hatch build thread(started in winter of 07).

  16. #41
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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    Quote Originally Posted by rjudgey View Post
    You need to be really carefull with the keepers and which ones you use, the retainers on the exhaust size use a larger keeper as the valves are bigger they also sit in a different position to the inlet ones as well they are much higher on the valve so this may make the spring too weak?

    In my opinion your best option is too scout around for some 2nd Gen Accord ET1 heads maybe ES1 might have them but the ET1 definately comes with double springs so has the retainers and platforms and keepers that will work 100% reliably, another option is maybe using Prelude ET ones they are not wedge shaped but flat so won't need washers and should work quite well with the Bisi springs.

    Hope this helps.

    If anyone ones some pics of prelude platforms and retainers and the ET1 ones just let me know I'll see what i can dig out from my hundreds of spares and take a few pics.

    I need a pic to show you something. The keepers only sit different on the valves because of the actual grove on the valve + the keepers. I used the intake keepers with the exhaust retainers, and i can say the retainer sits at the same spot the intake did. The only thing that would be different from my view is the innerspring might be compressed by a extra 1/2-1mm.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAH View Post
    pullin up turbo spoolin fast lookin fly like a 3g like a 3g like a 3g

  17. #42


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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    First pic is my own car. The ones on the bench not sure of the of the year etc.

    wp
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    Now running E85.

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  18. #43


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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    Quote Originally Posted by LX-incredible View Post
    Just spent the day at 2 yards, looking at about 30 accord heads.

    The larger seats and retainers only came on the 86-87 models. All models in 86 had them, about half of the 87 models had them. Isn't dependent on being FI or carbed, just the manufacture date.

    Exhaust seats and 86 intake retainers seem like the best option for the intake. I'll post some pictures tomorrow.
    You, my friend, are the motha effin man! Can't thank you enough for doing that for me (and the entire board). So as far as I'm concerned that seals the deal for me. We just need to clear up this '87 thing now. But would you guys agree that "general" rule of thumb could be that the 88-89's use the smaller diameter springs/retainers, while 'most' 86-87 use larger diameter springs/retainers.

    Ok, this iPhone sucks, so i'm going to finish this post tomorrow.
    -Mark D.


  19. #44


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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    Quote Originally Posted by markmdz89hatch View Post
    You, my friend, are the motha effin man! Can't thank you enough for doing that for me (and the entire board). So as far as I'm concerned that seals the deal for me. We just need to clear up this '87 thing now. But would you guys agree that "general" rule of thumb could be that the 88-89's use the smaller diameter springs/retainers, while 'most' 86-87 use larger diameter springs/retainers.

    Ok, this iPhone sucks, so i'm going to finish this post tomorrow.
    yeah he's the effing man, but it was raining and it made me more sick asshole!!! jk, we got some decent stuff out of the day... but yeah he looked at every 3g hahaha.
    dead white and blue

  20. #45
    Accord of the Year - 2006

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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    I can also confrim the 87 had larger diameter intake springs and retainers. I will try and dig up some parts I hae laying around. There are definately 2 sets of valvetrain components in the 86-89 Accords.

    Heres my 87 fi head.







    I should add my springs were replaced back in the day by JG. Dont know of the spring diameter is the same.
    Last edited by guaynabo89; 04-12-2009 at 09:31 PM.

  21. #46
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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    ^^ why are they so shiny?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by CAH View Post
    pullin up turbo spoolin fast lookin fly like a 3g like a 3g like a 3g

  22. #47

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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    From left to right, bisi, 86 intake, 88-89 intake




    86-89 exhaust, bisi




    86 intake, 88-89 intake, 86-89 exhaust. Retainers on top, seats on bottom.


    86 retainer on valve with INTAKE keepers.


    86 intake retainer with exhaust seat on bisi spring. Perfect fit!


    Last edited by LX-incredible; 04-12-2009 at 11:13 PM.
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  23. #48
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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    87 hatch lxi .i dont know if these help any. but i thought maybe u could see a difference in intake spring size on the 87 head compared to some other years.

  24. #49

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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tdurr View Post
    ^^ why are they so shiny?!?!
    Probably titanium, that guy doesn't screw around.
    88 LX-i coupe auto (241K DD), 88 LX-i coupe 5-speed, 89 SE-i coupe auto.
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    who is tim and where can i get naughty pictures of him?
    CARDONE SUCKS.

  25. #50

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    Re: These damn f*cking valve springs....

    So, I was right when checking part numbers!

    86-87 have the larger springs and 88-89 have the smaller ones, just like the B20A3

    http://pages.videotron.com/omus
    3geez member since July 12 2000

    I need these parts!
    https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67742

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