hmm... when i had the springs tested for #s they guy did go to coil bind. almost all of the coils were flat on each other. but i assumed the springs were progressive. Hell I need to call bisi, and tell him to put that his springs only work for the early years, and ill ask him if they are progressive or linear.
edit: yea, I assumed they were different materials. the bisi springs i think had some sort of coating, or were rougher to the touch then the stock springs.
Originally Posted by CAH
...save yourself the call about whether or not they're progressive or linear. The Bisi's are linear, while all the stockers (exhaust, 86-87 intake and 88-89 intake) are all progressive.
The bisi's may be the same wire material, but as you pointed out, they may have some protective or 'performance' coating on them. I don't have any so I don't know.
Any idea what kind of machine the shop used to test the spring rates? I'm not questioning them at all, I'm just curious to see what tester options are out there because the one mfg that I found charges a pretty penny for their professional testers.
Edit: I do agree though that they should be called and told about the need to specify that 86-87 intake retainers (and seats, or more prefferably exhaust seats) should be used with these, and NOT to use them with 88-89 retainers.
Did you have the chance to swap them out yet? ...any chance you know how much the j/y would hit you for a set of the 8 86-87 retainers and keepers, and 8 exhaust seats?
Last edited by markmdz89hatch; 04-15-2009 at 07:48 PM.
-Mark D.
im just going to gank the retainers lol. fuck paying for them. I'll prob try and get a rear sway bar tho.
and the tester was a simple one. Let me see if i can find a pic..
this is it lol. simple right?
You could test springs with a bathroom scale, a ruler, and a press. Put the scale on the press with a flat plate on it to spread the spring force out over the surface. Put the spring on the plate and start smashing. Measure the spring length and corresponding scale reading.
C|
sounds ghetto as fuck. and id prob break something if i tired it lol.
...but it works fairly well. Cygnus is right, for a low budget tester with decent accuracy, a standard bathroom scale, along with a few other household goods will yield you decent results.
I'm looking into a spring tester similar to the one you posted, but that Rimac is WAY beyond my budget. Those 'simple' looking tools will ding you between 700 and 100 depending on where you buy it from. Faak that.
Does anyone know the installed height of our springs? (Both intake and exhaust.) I looked into a few valve spring height micrometers, but they all look too bulky to fit our heads.
-Mark D.
lol tools are a rip off. but ill get installed heights of the bisi springs when i change out the retainers.
schweetness. ...actually, when are you planning on swapping those out? I may have a possible suggestion for you. I just spent the last two days on the phone with Ferrea and CompCams for over 3 hours combined. Those guys like to talk, and I like to listen and ask questions, which leads to a 'minutes used' disaster.
Last edited by markmdz89hatch; 04-16-2009 at 01:39 PM.
-Mark D.
dono. maybe this weekend. Need specs on something im assuming.
I was out at the JY today so I checked all the 3g Accords and the one 2g Prelude. All the '88 and '89 Accords had the smaller intake springs. The single '86 had large springs and the single '87 also had large springs. The '87 Prelude had large springs.
C|
ok, guys, i posted this on the PP thread too, but it belongs here as well.
ok, new table now including Rich's specs on the A18 Exhaust springs.
That confirms it then, if Rich thinks the A18 exhausts may be even a bit too stiff on his setup (I'm with him on that one), then these Bisi's are just way too stiff. It's not that it's going to cause a sudden catastrophic failure, but you'll be sure to wear out the cam bearings and scrub the piss out of the cam lobes with the rockers. Worse yet, because they are linear, there's no softer 'seating' of the valve on spring rebound, so the likely-hood of valve bounce is all but guaranteed.
That truly sucks to say that too.
Anyway, here's the table:
-Mark D.
I have to agree with Rich on this one. There's really not a huge problem with float or bounce on these motors with stock springs, unless the springs are really tired. That can be solved by buying new ones from Majestic Honda.
Again, just taking spring rates is not a perfect science because it's a bigger deal to determine the rate at installed height as well as weight at max lift.
But just looking at that table, if it's a stronger setup we're after, using the A18 Inner exhaust springs with A20 Outer Exhaust would get you to 223.473 lbs from the stock 186.5 or 190 lb. That's plenty strong enough to keep the float at a min, and avoid bounce, while keeping the stress on the cam lobes and head bearings to a decent compromise.
Personally, I checked out using the exhaust retainers with intake keepers, and I'm not a big fan at all. You can't use the exhaust keepers because the inner radius of the keepers is made for the 6.9mm exhaust stems, and not the 6.54mm intake stems.
gotta run, but more on that later....
Sweet deal. Thanks man. I really want to get my hands on a set of these A18 springs. Both intake and exhaust, so I can measure each up and (eventually) test them in the spring tester.
-Mark D.
Lame, they are indeed ridiculously stiff... would probably wear the cam and trash our shitty head bearings in no time. I really wish they used replacable bearings instead of this aluminium bullshit.
Good job finding the facts on this one. At least we only had two buy them...
88 LX-i coupe auto (241K DD), 88 LX-i coupe 5-speed, 89 SE-i coupe auto.
CARDONE SUCKS.
I still think there usefull but only if you have some machining done and muck around with a combination of valves and retainers to get the installed height good so that they aren't mega compressed and straining the rest of the parts too much.
I'd be interested in a set but I'd probably just use the outer springs with the A18 inners.
I build my heads with a certain rpm in mind and then choose the spring rates and springs that will give me that so that i don't loose too much to frictional losses. I did a big thread on this before which spring combo for which cam and rpms.
Also the biggest advantage of Bisi springs over stock is the fact we can run cams with 12-13mm lift the stock springs won't allow that much lift without increasing the installed height which will then weaken the installed spring rate. So the Bisi springs aren't all bad news.
ok guys...this is good info but the spring is stiff...it will wear out the cam a bit faster.
1989 Honda Accord LX-i
B18c1 swap since 7/2011
175whp and 132tq
Redzone tuned
I notice that also...i have a a20a1 block and took the head off today since im building it...well anyway i see the intake valve springs as alot smaller...when i changed v/c on my A3 damn..difference is really noticable...but same results as in reving high? i think the 86 head is better then the 88/89 just by looking at the heads..Flowing i would think the same..but im prolly use the my 86 head anyway
200+ ALL MOTOR LS VTEC
can i can confrim that the 86 a20a3 has bigger springs both intake and exhaust...i just looked the intake is TINY on the a1 head maybe since it carbed..but damn...what a difference...
200+ ALL MOTOR LS VTEC
So it seems it's not a matter of DX, LX, or LX-i, but rather what years it came from. As a general rule of thumb we're seeing that 86-87's use the larger diameter springs, while 88-89 use the smaller.
Aesthetically, the 86-87's look stronger, but take a look at the tables I posted earlier in the thread, and you'll see that (at least on paper) the 88-89's are actually mildly stronger than the 86's despite their smaller diameter.
-Mark D.
thats odd...well im using the bisi springs anyhow..
200+ ALL MOTOR LS VTEC
so i got some 86 intake retainers thanks to mushroom toy, and took a bunch of pics of the 86+88 intake and exhaust retainers. Ill upload the pics later tonight.
86 JDM A20A (no number) head
1988 Honda Accord LX-i Coupe 123k miles.
its a HF-6 btw
1988 Honda Accord LX-i Coupe 123k miles.
I still have no clue what the hell the HF-X means, but I'm sure I'll figure it out soon enough. ...along with the numbers on the cam brackets.
Anyway, given the mass info we already got in the thread courtesy of junkyard runs, and ppl posting up their pics, I'm going out on a limb here and saying that head has been rebuilt, or at least has had the 88-89 springs installed post-factory release.
-Mark D.
umm..my 86 one is HF-1 and the a1 is HF-11
200+ ALL MOTOR LS VTEC
-Mark D.
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