These damn f*cking valve springs....

[markmdz89hatch]

Ok guys, for anyone that's yanked the valve cover off their motor and snapped a pic, please please please post it here. I need to get to the bottom of what heads had what springs. When you post the pic, please post the year of the car and motor code (and IF the head or entire motor has been replaced, please note that as well).

This is a pic of the head that I got from another member. No idea really of which year/model this came from.

Note the diameter of the intake valve springs/retainers. They are very small in diameter (I'll get the exact measurements later today).



Now THIS is the pic that A20A3 posted in his pic/build thread for his '89 LX-i.
A20A3 --> Can you tell me if those are dual or single springs?

[markmdz89hatch]

ALERT: Guys, if you have just purchased Bisi springs (Tdurr, this goes out to you my friend), please please please understand that I'm sure Bisi was using a head that looked just like A20A3's head, not mine. The retainers on A20A3's head will work just fine (sort of. they don't have a second step for the inner springs.), but the retainers on the head like mine should not be used. The springs are entirely too wide and my retainers are entirely too small in diameter to safely run that setup.

[Tdurr]

Say what now? I just got back from a trip to savannah in my car, took it to 6k+ a few times on the way back and the car held up fine.
Like i said before, on the intake side, we had to put flat washers on the inside to keep the inner springs on the intake side from sitting slanted. The Head i have on my car is a A3, so im confused.

btw are u asking for pics of the intake springs installed on the car? and in that 2nd pic, the intake springs are singles. U can see the stem seal clearly on the #3.

[carotman]

Could be an A20A1 head (Or BS1)

Any casting numbers?

['A20A3']

on the front of the head on mine it says PJ0

and i dunno yet mark mang im sorry i need to relash my valves and get some more pics of that for you.

we need to keep this thread going.

['A20A3']

also mark, you did get the cam caps and/or rocker assembly with that right?

[markmdz89hatch]

also mark, you did get the cam caps and/or rocker assembly with that right?

nope.

...oh yeah, please disregard the bottom pair of springs/retainers. Those are exhaust spring/retainer setup, but the ones above are the stock intake.

OK, update for you guys. I checked another head I have, which is a bone stock original head from my '89 DX (A20A1). The springs/retainers look identical to the ones pictured. ...gee, looks like we just found out that the A3 heads are considerably different from the A1.

gimme about 10 mins and I'll post up a pic of the A1 head I just looked at. ...and about 15 mins, I'll go grab an '88 A3 I got on the shelf and check that out.

Stay tuned....

[Oldblueaccord]

PM me a public email and ill send you some of mine on my car and a head i have on the bench.


wp

[Civic Accord Honda]

ill post some of my JDM A20A (no number) head as soon as my camera battery's are charged

[markmdz89hatch]

update: Pics.

I just lined them all up, wrote up what motor they're off, and exactly what codes are on the front of the head. All heads use the same intake and exhaust springs and retainers.

After the pics of the heads, I have some pics of a box of springs, valves and retainers I picked up from JohnnyO this past weekend. Note the springs next to the red basket, they are single springs (not a dual spring setup) and look to be about the same as what A20A3 has pictured on his intake side. I wonder if it's the 86-87 LX-i (A20A3) heads that use the larger intake springs.

[LX-incredible]

What? The intake springs are the same diameter on all A20s. The A18 that came in the prelude had the slightly larger intake springs.

You'll be just fine if you use exhaust spring retainers and seats on the intake. Let's not try to make this more complicated than it needs to be.

[AccordB20A]

Yeah i didnt know there was so much to valve springs lol

[markmdz89hatch]

What? The intake springs are the same diameter on all A20s. The A18 that came in the prelude had the slightly larger intake springs.

You'll be just fine if you use exhaust spring retainers and seats on the intake. Let's not try to make this more complicated than it needs to be.

I fully understand that we don't want to make this more complicated than it needs to be, and I agree with you. However, I think it's important that we get to the bottom of this little mystery. At this point, I'm going out on a limb and saying that I think (and I'll need to confirm this) that the 86-87 LX-i's have the intake springs/retainers that A20A3 has pictured there. But one fact is now known. ...which is that not all A20 heads have the same springs.

A20A3 (dude, what's your name? Calling you by your 3geez handle is too confusing especially in this thread). Anyway, I know you have an '89 LX-i Coupe, but do you know if the head or entire motor has ever been replaced?

Take a look at the last picture I posted with all the springs, retainers, valves. Note there are 9 of the larger diameter springs on the far left of the paper towel (right next to the red basket). Now also note that there are 9 retainers on the same pic (the middle columns or retainers). Those have a tapered locator (or second step) to the center hole, unlike the exhaust spring retainers which use the flat seats without a tapered locator.

I do agree that we can use the stock exhaust springs and retainers on the intake side, but it's not quite as easy as that. The stock exhaust valve stems are 6.90mm, while the stock intake valve stems are 6.54mm (about a 1/2 mm difference). ...and the center hole diameter on the two retainers (exhaust and intake) are different, so there's a question as to which keepers to use to lock onto the stem groove and fit nice and snug in the retainter taper.

I'm still looking into this, and had about an hour long conversation with Ferrea (a race valve mfg.) Wednesday morning. I'm getting somewhere, but I have a major learning curve to overcome before I can even pretend to know what I'm talking about with this.

...if anyone has any pictures of their head and they have an 86-87 LX-i, and you can confirm without any question of doubt that it is the original head, please please please post it here.

[Smeado]

I'm no expert but i think the change dosen't have as much to do with engine code as it does year. I have a an ET-2 head with the center oil plug (like the A18 engine) from 1986 Lude ad it has the larger intake springs, I also have a A20A3 head form a 86 Accord that also has the larger springs (acquired at a junk yard). I also have a 87 Prelude SI head (marked A20A3 on the block, also form the JY) that has the smaller springs. I have Bisi valve springs and they DO only fit the larger spring retainers. maybe this thread will be of some help.

http://www.preludepower.com/forums/s...=307454&page=1

Smeado

[carotman]

Here are some part numbers

86 DX Hatch
86 LXI Hatch
87 DX Hatch
87 LXI Hatch

88 DX Hatch
88 LXI Hatch
89 DX Hatch
89 LXI Hatch

It seems that all engines for in 86-87 have their own part number and 88-89 have another part number.

This could be because they used the same valve springs on the B20A3 when it came out in 1988.
Prelude B20A3

Are the 86-87 really different from the 88-89?

I have an 87 and an 89 here at home. I'll check into this later this week.

[LX-incredible]

Son of a... you're right. I pulled out the two extra LX-i heads I have around here and the intake springs and retainers are quite different. The HF-2 is from an 89 and has the smaller intake springs. HF-1 has the larger springs. Stat1k would have to tell you what year that was off of.

The HF-1 intake springs look exactly the same as A20A3's, they are single coils.

['A20A3']

my name is Harvey.

i dont know about my motor, all i know is that it says A20A3 on the block, PJ0 on the head, and that it has less than 50K miles on it. it had a automatic flywheel on it when i got it. it's from a coupe that was exported to Japan back in the day. i got it from a friend of mine at Japan Engines. so it's very possible that someone over there tampered with it. it's stout. burns no synthetic, and has excellent compression.

okay this pic is of the head that was on my 88 LX-i auto. i still need to strip it all down and clean it. it's been sitting for 3 or so years now. and the retainers on it look smaller than the ones in the motor in my car now. it looks like my motor was played with over in Japan long before i got it...

[AccordB20A]

and i thought all a20 heads were the same aye, well i treated them that way, even a18 heads i used one on a a20 to sell a car

[markmdz89hatch]

smeado--> I think you're right... ...kind of. I'm not sure about what the A18's or ET's had, but I'm still not convinced that the A20A1 and A20A3 aren't different, but one thing is for sure... The '88 and '89's of all codes (A1 or A3) appear to have the smaller intake springs.

Now we just need to collect a little more info from the guys about their 86 and 87's and find out if they came from an A1 or A3.

Harvey --> I'm willing to bet that head came from an 86 or 87, or at least someone pillaged the intake springs from an 86 or 87.

LX-incredible --> Can you ping Stat1k and ask him to jump on this thread, or just get an answer from him on the model/year?

Jean --> Thanks for those p/n's and links. i'm going to check those out tonight and see if I can make head or tails of this.

['A20A3']

Harvey --> I'm willing to bet that head came from an 86 or 87, or at least someone pillaged the intake springs from an 86 or 87.

that's what i'm thinking. those japanese people played with my motor.

car runs great too. ill have pics of it for you tomorrow when i relash the valves.

[Tdurr]

so im still not sure the whole point of this thread. You think that the intake springs are different from 86-87, and 88-89? that it?

[Pico]

I'm confused and read thru this a few times.
Does it mean if I get the Bizi Springs I have to use the retainers from a 86-87 head?
or am I fine with the retainers I have on my 89 head...

[Tdurr]

I have the stock retainers with the bisi springs on my 88 head. Ill go look at the code later, but i dont see the problem here.


those are the stock intake retainers + keepers.


you can see the washer i was talking about before in this pic.


the intake seats on the right are what was replaced by the washers.

[Oldblueaccord]

It appears to me your retainers are way too small. There not even covering 50% of the springs coil it seems. If your machinist is ok with it then I guess its ok.


wp

[rjudgey]

I would want something a little bigger covering the tops of those springs! lol!