engine reassembly questions

[parkersnine]

Got the 1.8 from the machine shop and getting ready for reassembly. I have read that you should use some sort of non hardening gasket sealant were the front and rear main bearing caps meet the engine block. Any suggestions as to brand of gasket sealant? We bought Permatex Tack and Seal Item 80938. White. Is this ok?
We purchased STA LUBE to coat bearing surfaces. Since the block was tanked or whatever its now bare metal. We got Duplicolor Semi gloss black but noticed that it calls for a primer. Has anyone had experience repainting a block?
Will a 2.0 head gasket fit a 1.8 thats been bored .40 over ? Bought the gasket set before realizing it was not a 2.0. The company I purchased the from on Ebay stated they checked with their tech guy and claimed it would.
Lastly.. Does a block thats decked affect the head bolt length or is it too insignigicant? Forgot to ask the shop... Any hints appreciated...

[Ichiban]

Got the 1.8 from the machine shop and getting ready for reassembly. I have read that you should use some sort of non hardening gasket sealant were the front and rear main bearing caps meet the engine block. Any suggestions as to brand of gasket sealant? We bought Permatex Tack and Seal Item 80938. White. Is this ok?

I think it should be alright. I found the Permatex application form here:

http://www.permatex.com/documents/Ga...ngSelector.pdf

I would however pay strict attention to where the sealant is applied. I don't believe it should be between the faces where the cap bolts to the block, as it may affect clearances or migrate out and affect torque over time. Follow FSM instructions on this one.

We purchased STA LUBE to coat bearing surfaces.

Which sta-lube product did you purchase? I use Federal-Mogul assembly pre-lube on bearings (a TRW sub-brand if I remember right), Lubriplate engine assembly grease to pack the oil pump cavities, and clean motor oil for piston/ring assembly. I also coat valve tappets, rocker shafts and cam lobes (if already broken in) with the Lubriplate.

Since the block was tanked or whatever its now bare metal. We got Duplicolor Semi gloss black but noticed that it calls for a primer. Has anyone had experience repainting a block?

I used Duplicolor Hemi Orange on my Toyota 22R block. I degreased the block using perchlorethylene brake cleaner (bad stuff) and painted away. I used the Duplicolor primer indicated by the can of colour coat.

Will a 2.0 head gasket fit a 1.8 thats been bored .40 over ? Bought the gasket set before realizing it was not a 2.0. The company I purchased the from on Ebay stated they checked with their tech guy and claimed it would.

I believe it depends on what year of 1.8 you're working with. Early 1.8 engines do not have an oil jet, while all A20 engines and later 1.8's do. The head gasket may have changed to accommodate this. The oil jet is located on the deck beside the center rear head bolt.

Lastly.. Does a block thats decked affect the head bolt length or is it too insignigicant? Forgot to ask the shop... Any hints appreciated...

Hell no, your block was decked probably at most .010", and when those holes are drilled and tapped, they are pushed probably .200" deeper on the thread than they need to be, and drilled .375-.500" deeper than that to allow chip relief when tapping the holes. I wouldn't worry about that one bit.

As far as hints go;

-make sure you've pulled all of the oil gallery plugs and have flushed and blown out all oil passages in the block, crank and head. Dirt gets inside during the tanking process, and goes straight to your bearings if you don't get it first.

-Don't allow ANY oil/prelube between bearing caps and their mating faces, or behind the bearing shells. Oil between mating cap faces will migrate out and change the torque of those critical components. Oil behind bearing shells will reduce the friction that keeps the bearings from spinning in their bores, and affect clearances.

-Use plastigauge. Bearing companies can, and do, fuck up from time to time.

-Prelube the engine by rolling it over with the plugs out until oil pressure is found on the gauge.

-Go gently when installing pistons. It's easy to break rings, and they do major damage to the cylinder bore before you realize there's a problem. Since your block has been bored .040 over, the machine shop should have recut the chamfer on the top corner of the bore, this aids in getting the rings installed in one piece. If there is a sharp corner, either take it back and have them chamfer it, or do it yourself with a file. .020-.030 x 45 degrees should do it.

[parkersnine]

Thanks for the reply. The Sta-Lube is E.P. Anti Seize engine assembly lube with Moly and Graphite.
Will check to see if chamfered. Will have them do it if not already done. Do you recommend using a ring expander? We purchased a ring compressor. I am concerned about breaking the rings too.

[Ichiban]

Do you recommend using a ring expander? We purchased a ring compressor. I am concerned about breaking the rings too.

By ring expander, do you mean the pliers that expand the ring over the piston? Yes, I suggest you use one. The edges of the piston rings are sharp, enough so to cut fingers and gouge the soft aluminum piston. Using the ring pliers allows you to safely and accurately place the rings on the piston.

Remember when installing pistons into the block, the piston, rings and ring compressor must be positively dripping with clean motor oil, and the piston should slide fairly easily into the bore being tapped in with a rubber or wooden hammer handle. It's surprising how tight the ring compressor will be on the piston, and the piston will still move easily.

It's also surprising how clean your hands will be after playing in clean motor oil all day!

[parkersnine]

yes..That is what I mean..Thanks for your help.

[Hauntd ca3]

Remember when installing pistons into the block, the piston, rings and ring compressor must be positively dripping with clean motor oil, and the piston should slide fairly easily into the bore being tapped in with a rubber or wooden hammer handle. It's surprising how tight the ring compressor will be on the piston, and the piston will still move easily.

this is a much argued subject.
most mechanics i know, say not to oil pistons and rings on a modern motor when assembling them as it is more likely to cause glazing of the bores .
i know the last japanese motor that i assembled , i didnt oil the pistons etc and it was a brilliant motor.
modern japanese and european motors are so hard in the bores and rings that they dont like having pistons etc lubed during assembly.
i'd be talking to an engine reconditioner that specialises in japanese motors and see what they say bout it.

[Ichiban]

this is a much argued subject.
most mechanics i know, say not to oil pistons and rings on a modern motor when assembling them as it is more likely to cause glazing of the bores .
i know the last japanese motor that i assembled , i didnt oil the pistons etc and it was a brilliant motor.
modern japanese and european motors are so hard in the bores and rings that they dont like having pistons etc lubed during assembly.
i'd be talking to an engine reconditioner that specialises in japanese motors and see what they say bout it.

There's no way on this planet I'm firing up an engine with dry pistons. Also during assembly, going dry just seems like it'll make a mess of cast iron rings, alloy pistons, and a freshly honed bore. The pistons don't run dry in the engine, so why should they be dry on assembly? Besides, the first 10 or so revolutions of the engine will scrape the majority of the oil from where the rings ride on the cylinder bore. That oil is also essential for washing off the filings created as the rings seat the bore.



Not to mention that the A-series in it's infancy was originally developed in '82-83 for the Prelude, making it basically a 27 year old design. Hardly modern by any description.

I will still oil my pistons before installation.

[Dr_Snooz]

I lubed the backs of my bearings. Am I screwed?

[Hauntd ca3]

There's no way on this planet I'm firing up an engine with dry pistons. Also during assembly, going dry just seems like it'll make a mess of cast iron rings, alloy pistons, and a freshly honed bore. The pistons don't run dry in the engine, so why should they be dry on assembly? Besides, the first 10 or so revolutions of the engine will scrape the majority of the oil from where the rings ride on the cylinder bore. That oil is also essential for washing off the filings created as the rings seat the bore.



Not to mention that the A-series in it's infancy was originally developed in '82-83 for the Prelude, making it basically a 27 year old design. Hardly modern by any description.

I will still oil my pistons before installation.

i've never had an engine failure because i didnt oil the pistons on assembly.
even an old datsun 1200 motor from the 70s that i rebuilt and it showed no signs of unusual wear in the bores or iffy compressions after 80,000 pretty hard kms with 12.5:1 comp ratio.
the bores get enough oil from splash out of the big ends anyway so there is no real need to oil the pistons.
if you spin the motor on the starter with the plugs out
until you get oil pressure , you'll have oil on the bores before start up, so there shouldnt be a prob anyway.
and as i said in my last post, this is a subject of many arguments.
everyone will have their own opinion on it and we've both stated ours.
if in doubt, talk to a reconditioner that specialises in honda motors.

and snooz, i dont think you are screwed.
bearing have a locating tag on them to stop them spinning and oil wont screw the clearances or torque settings enough to do anything to a motor.
i personally wouldnt worry.

[parkersnine]

How about the proper use of Plastigage? Any feedback on this subject. Will need to chech this out before I start out reassmbly.

[Ichiban]

Yeah, if the bearings managed to seat well enough that they didn't spin during initial startup, you're probably fine. Just keep in mind that the "thing" that retains the bearings in their bores is the friction created when the bearing cap slightly crushes the bearings in on initial torquing. The tabs are provided simply to locate the bearing shells during assembly. Sticking oil between the bore and shell is obviously going to reduce this friction. Like I mentioned earlier, oil between the mating faces of the bearing cap and block/rod WILL migrate out over time, reducing fastener torque and possibly affect clearances. Will it be enough to cause failure? Don't know, hope not, still going to build my engine like it will. Doesn't really take much more effort.

Plastigauge:

1. Place upper main bearing caps into block in proper order.

2. Place crankshaft into upper bearing shells. Do not apply any lube whatsoever at this time

3. Place lower bearing shells into main caps.

4. Lay a strip of plastigauge along the top of each main journal parallel to the axis of the shaft. Use scissors to cut.

5. Install the main caps in proper sequence, torque to spec following manual instructions. DO NOT ROTATE THE CRANKSHAFT.

6. Following manual instructions, remove main caps, compare the width of the now crushed plastigauge to the standards on the package (wider means less clearance)

7. Scrape off remaining plastigauge with a plastic scraper, credit card works well, rinse with solvent, dry, and assemble main bearings with prelube as per normal

8. Once main bearings are finally installed, install pistons/connecting rods, and repeat procedure for the rod bearings.

Be careful to not damage the soft bearing material when scraping off the plastigauge. Brakekleen works well to dissolve and wash away plastigauge, leave the bearings in their bores as the first torquing has "set" and crushed them into position. Be sure to buy plastigauge in the proper range as determined by the oil clearance you expect, ie if the manual states clearance must be .0015-.0025", get the .001-.003" plastigauge.

All these instructions are in the haynes manual, and probably the chiltons/clymer manual as well.

[Ichiban]

.
the bores get enough oil from splash out of the big ends anyway so there is no real need to oil the pistons.
if you spin the motor on the starter with the plugs out
until you get oil pressure , you'll have oil on the bores before start up, so

If they're going to get oil anyway, why not oil them first, instead of letting them go up and down dry until splash eventually lubes them. (keep in mind that the starter rolls the engine at 80-100 RPM, not at the 750+ RPM these engines get at idle, probably a lot less splash, esp if you have a windage tray installed.)

Edit: so chances are the bores are getting NO splash lube during the starter prelube affair, which is probably causing more harm than good, as opposed to no harm caused if the pistons are prelubed.

[Hauntd ca3]

every thing i've said is my from own personal experiance and most of which is based on advice of mechanics who have been building engines for longer than i've been alive, i have no reason to doubt them as i've never had an engine fail in nearly 18 years from taking this advise.

[lostforawhile]

If you don't oil the pistons, that crosshatch that is put on the cyl walls to help seat the rings, is going to get scraped right up, it needs to be there until the rings have seated and the engine is broken in. and Snooze, you did have the cyl walls honed with the proper crosshatch pattern before the pistons went in right?

[Hauntd ca3]

you'd probably find that even in a motor with 200,000 miles on the clock, the hone marks would stil be there in a modern japanese motor .
i,ve pulled down toyota V6 camry motors with higher mileage than that and the hone marks have still been there.
the bores are harder than the rings by a long way, that why rings are replaceable. for the rings to screw up the hone pattern , you either have rings not designed for that motor, you were unlucky enough to get a bad casting or it just been bored to far.
but at the end of the day its up to you to decide how to assemble your motor.
and i just know from my own experiance with japanese motors, i wouldnt oil rings and pistons.
and as i've said in earlier posts, if in doubt, ask an engine builder that specialises in japanese motors for advice, they might say differant to me and they might not.
its your choice

[ecogabriel]

When installing the bearings (rod, crank) make sure that you DO NOT touch the working surfaces with bare hands. I read something about the oils in hands/fingers being a contaminant or so. I only know that I did that with the old bearings on the other surface and sure enough I got fingertips on the bearings' finish.

Make sure you have enough room to work on assembling the engine and that the area is clean.

[Ichiban]

When installing the bearings (rod, crank) make sure that you DO NOT touch the working surfaces with bare hands. I read something about the oils in hands/fingers being a contaminant or so. I only know that I did that with the old bearings on the other surface and sure enough I got fingertips on the bearings' finish.

Make sure you have enough room to work on assembling the engine and that the area is clean.

I've heard this as well. Apparently acid in perspiration can etch hardened steel quite easily. However, after hours in clean engine oil, most of that is washed off. I usually completely avoid touching the soft babbit surface of the bearing shells, they are very easily damaged.

[parkersnine]

Used the plastigauge and the crank bearing clearances were all within the specified range. The manual said to torque all but #3(has thrust bearing) then to "tap the ends of crankshaft forward and backward with a lead or brass hammer to line up the bearing and crankshaft thrust surfaces." Then retighten all main bearing cap bolts to the specified torque.
We tapped the ends of the crank(kinda hard to do with it on a stand)...There does not appear to be any movement of crank when tapped either toward either end. No lead or brass hammer on hand so tapped with hammer with block of wood on either end of crank. It says this is to line up the main bearing and crankshaft thrust surfaces. Can someone shed some light on 1)Why this is needed,2)How can I be sure the main and crank thrust surfaces are lined up? Thanks