pgm-fi on and excessive blowby

[kentwat]

Thanks Gabriel, I tried testing it with & it is a bear testing those little wires. I didn't have a vacuum pump but I did it the manual way. On one side I did see resistance changing but it was very hard keeping the probes connected. I couldn't get anything off the otherside so I'd suspect it bad. I'll try it again on another since I see now how one goes up in resistance and one goes down. I could use one of the vacuum diaphrams to help hold the vacuum. Thanks it looks to be a great weekend.

[ecogabriel]

I am glad you figured out from my writing what you were supposed to do.

I agree; it is a FSOB to keep the probes making contact with the little pins inside the connector. Next time I go to the junkyard I'll cut the EGR connector attached to the engine wires and maybe try to pick up another working EGR valve to keep as spare. They sell them very cheap but the problem is finding a working one especially when one does not know what a working one should do.

If you need an EGR valve go to the junkyard and pick any from any 86-89 EFI Accord. With the procedure you did I was able to identify one that worked (the third/fourth one I checked). That is the one installed in my car and no more code 12.

Also, there are probes for the multimeter that "grab" the wire/contact one is testing; I'll see if Radioshack carries them as they may be better for this purpose.

I suggest you to get a vacuum pump; you'll spend 30-40 bucks but on the other hand you'll be saving close to 200 bucks in a new EGR valve and you'll be able to use the pump for other things.

I still have to post with the photos... damn f... dissertation!!!

[kentwat]

Well I got the last one from the yard and it throws the pgm-fi light even quicker. It will kick on around 2500. I'll fill you on how it runs. At cold start up it fires within 1 second goes up to 1500 and then comes down normally. It currently idles about 1200 steady. I probably need to turn down the idle screw. When it is warm it takes about 4 seconds to fire up and goes to 1200 idle. Every now and then after start up when warm it will act like it is getting no fuel. I use the pedal to get it back to normal. It just bogs out This will happen even with no PGM-FI light on. I had another main fuel relay and it didn't change any of these symptoms.
btw I do have a 90 Acura Integra ls and the egr on it is just like the Accord but the vacuum line is on the opposite side. I also got a plug so I can test the egr easier. Have a good one.

[ecogabriel]

Does the EGR valve from the yard test OK (one side resistance going up, the other going down) when applying vacuum?
My experience with junkyard EGR valves was that all I got could hold vacuum; but the first two or three I got had no signal on one side (would show no resistance and no change w/changes in vacuum); I picked up the first one that showed signal on both sides (it also held vacuum fine) and no code 12 ever since.

With regards to the cold start and the warm start, mine has done the same since I got it. It fires right up with cold engine (it barely starts cranking that is already up and running) but with warm engine it would take longer.
No issues with idle speed although mine idles a little too fast @1k; mine is auto and there is some issue w/ the tranny (torque converter) that adds extra drag and keeps an idle valve open most of the time. Anyway, they are supposed to idle higher when cold and then come down to its right idle speed once they warmed up

I have always wondered whether other Hondas could provide EGR valves that would work on ours; that would be an interesting thing to test for.

[kentwat]

Just an update. I got an egr off an 90 integra that still through the pgm-fi light. I put it on my 90 integra with the same code 12 and if haven't had a code since. I tested out another from an 88 accord and tested good on bothe sides and still gave me the light. It must be the computer because I changed out the other sensor on the firewall. Unless there is another component that is involved to give the code 12. I've pulled the fuse to clear ecu and same code. So I guess I'm just going to live with it now. I can swap an egr in 20 minutes now even if it is hot. As for other egrs 92 accords have the same looking egr but a different plug, but since the 90 integra didn't fix my problem they may be different??? End of story on this one. Thanks for feedback.

[Dr_Snooz]

You really need to buy/borrow a vacuum pump. The first step in the troubleshooting procedure is to warm up the car, disconnect the #16 vacuum line and apply vacuum to the EGR valve. If you don't have a pump, you're basically flying blind.

[kentwat]

I went and purchased a vacuum pump to do the testing to find concrete evidence. I also checked my Acura's computer and it still has the code 12 but is not throwing a check engine light. grrrrrrr. I'll post up info later. I need to figure out how to apply power to it to get the valve to pop out. 9volt battery or battery charger on low setting??

[Dr_Snooz]

I went and purchased a vacuum pump to do the testing to find concrete evidence. I also checked my Acura's computer and it still has the code 12 but is not throwing a check engine light. grrrrrrr. I'll post up info later. I need to figure out how to apply power to it to get the valve to pop out. 9volt battery or battery charger on low setting??

Warm up the engine?

[kentwat]

How do you ever know if the valve is actually open? Get it warm then remove it and apply vacuum? I have had it running and applied vacuum and the car will stall. But off of the car with no power and vacuum only the valve never opens. I have had it running without the egr valve attached. Quite noisy.

[ecogabriel]

How do you ever know if the valve is actually open? Get it warm then remove it and apply vacuum? I have had it running and applied vacuum and the car will stall. But off of the car with no power and vacuum only the valve never opens. I have had it running without the egr valve attached. Quite noisy.

The valve acts under vacuum; the electrical stuff on top tells the ECU how open (or close) it is but in itself does not open or close the valve.

The valve should open every time vacuum is applied; you do not need too much (5-7 in should be enough) You should be able to see the plunger at the bottom to raise (it gets deeper in the valve) under vacuum.
If it does not move I would suspect maybe crud keeping it from opening but since you said the car gets killed when applying vacuum w/engine running I am kind of lost.

I would check continuity between the EGR wiring and the ECU as the one missing possibility for code 12; a short/open circuit in the wiring preventing the ECU from "seeing" it. More certainly, I would suspect a corroded terminal in the wiring maze between the EGR valve and the ECU. I had dead circuits in the car (no door locks, no door lights) due to green-corroded terminals.

[ecogabriel]

Just an update. I got an egr off an 90 integra that still through the pgm-fi light. I put it on my 90 integra with the same code 12 and if haven't had a code since. I tested out another from an 88 accord and tested good on bothe sides and still gave me the light. It must be the computer because I changed out the other sensor on the firewall. Unless there is another component that is involved to give the code 12. I've pulled the fuse to clear ecu and same code. So I guess I'm just going to live with it now. I can swap an egr in 20 minutes now even if it is hot. As for other egrs 92 accords have the same looking egr but a different plug, but since the 90 integra didn't fix my problem they may be different??? End of story on this one. Thanks for feedback.

I saw one from a 92 accord last time; yeah the terminals are different but I would guess that it might work... I'll take a look once I'm done with school

[Dr_Snooz]

Step one of the troubleshooting procedure is to warm up the car and apply vacuum to the #16 vacuum line. Please just do it and report if it holds vacuum.

Kthx,

[kentwat]

First I hooked a vacuum gauge up to hose 16 and it wasn't pulling any vacuum when I had the engine with the fans on and about 3000rpm. Next I hooked my vacuum pump up to the egr valve and it will open valve up starting below 5 on the vacuum scale and kill the engine. Also I took a multimeter to the plug to the egr when it was running and was getting 4 volts w\ it on the 20 scale dc. So I guess the egr is reporting nothing is opening the valve. Thanks for feedback.

[ecogabriel]

First I hooked a vacuum gauge up to hose 16 and it wasn't pulling any vacuum when I had the engine with the fans on and about 3000rpm. Next I hooked my vacuum pump up to the egr valve and it will open valve up starting below 5 on the vacuum scale and kill the engine. Also I took a multimeter to the plug to the egr when it was running and was getting 4 volts w\ it on the 20 scale dc. So I guess the egr is reporting nothing is opening the valve. Thanks for feedback.

Hose #16 would not pull any vacuum unless the solenoid in the black box closes; you can pump forever and nothing will happen.
But if you plug #17 hose you may be able to pull vacuum; when the solenoid is not energized the valve diaphragm receives atmospheric pressure.
EGR valve works under acceleration and load conditions to reduce NOx formation; it does not work when you are cruising in the highway at steady speeds or when the engine is idling.
For what you describe the mechanical part of the valve works; you apply vacuum and kills the engine. Probably the EGR passages in the intake manifold are OK also.
As for other tests I learned how to check The valve itself for electrical continuity. Doing what I did I found a working valve among several dead one. My code 12 (and failed emissions) went away with the good valve. From what you said (including how pesky is to test the valve for continuity) your valve tests the same way as mine does so I would leave it alone.

I suggest downloading the service manual for further troubleshooting; ideally find the one for the 1989 US Accord because it is the closest to our cars in terms of emission equipment. The other manuals cover non-US models and those differ in emission equipment in some substantial ways.
To my knowledge there was no change for the EGR system (other systems did change from 86-87 EFI)
Snooz posted the link somewhere for that manual; try to find it and then go by the troubleshooting chart. It will give you a written map to check what you are doing.

Oh, remember to re-set the ECU either by removing a fuse (cannot recall which one)or just unplug the battery for a few minutes. Otherwise the code remains in memory although I am not sure whether it will trigger the EFI light when there is not a problem.

[kentwat]

OK, I've had the manual above 86 accord manual + supplement. The testing in there involves getting the honda plug in to do all of the testing. That is how i see all of the troubleshooting of the parts. I downloaded the 86-89 since I've now read it is for American models and there may be differences. In the 88 it actual complete picture of my control box.

So I can do some testing.
Edit: the 88 has alot better testing troubleshooting.

[Dr_Snooz]

First I hooked a vacuum gauge up to hose 16 and it wasn't pulling any vacuum when I had the engine with the fans on and about 3000rpm. Next I hooked my vacuum pump up to the egr valve and it will open valve up starting below 5 on the vacuum scale and kill the engine. Also I took a multimeter to the plug to the egr when it was running and was getting 4 volts w\ it on the 20 scale dc. So I guess the egr is reporting nothing is opening the valve. Thanks for feedback.

Great. So it holds vacuum and kills the engine. Next, with the engine warm and running, disconnect the #24 vacuum line and check for vacuum. Let me know what you get.

[kentwat]

Thanks Dr. will do in the am. My starter has been grinding for a couple of months and today picking up the kids I had to have them push me off because of click click. I was feeling really Redneck with the Christian school parents in their 09 Yukons and 08 Accords, lol.

[ecogabriel]

My starter has been grinding for a couple of months and today picking up the kids I had to have them push me off because of click click. I was feeling really Redneck with the Christian school parents in their 09 Yukons and 08 Accords, lol.

If it is a Denso starter the problem may be worn out solenoid contacts and/or contact plunger. It is an easy fix if you can get hold of the parts. I fixed two Denso starters (Camry and Civic)
Sadly, Honda does not sell those parts but can be bought online; it is the only thing that breaks down in those starters they are pretty much indestructible.

Don't worry about the others' Yukons; in a few years they will join the 2000 Explorers and Expeditions I saw in the junkyard last week; I even saw a 2003 Crown Victoria there...

[Dr_Snooz]

Thanks Dr. will do in the am. My starter has been grinding for a couple of months and today picking up the kids I had to have them push me off because of click click. I was feeling really Redneck with the Christian school parents in their 09 Yukons and 08 Accords, lol.

That's major embarrassing. I bet you heard about it from the kids too. Is it a battery problem or a starter problem? Next time, have the kids turn the key while you whack the starter with a hammer or wrench or something. You want to jar it, not dent it. If it works, the solenoid is indeed bad. Otherwise, try jiggling the battery cables. They aren't all full of corrosion are they? You can check the battery and charging systems with your multimeter pretty easily.

Let us know what you turn up on the inspection. I'm just going through the EGR troubleshooting section in the manual. If you want to continue on without waiting for me, the manual is available here. The troubleshooting begins on p. 12-79.

Good luck with everything.

[kentwat]

I printed that out yesterday when I was searching through the other year manuals. Those flow charts weren't in the 86 only manual. As for the starter it has been making a horrible c=grinding now for sometime. I'll clean the connections tomorrow. I have a d16z6 with auto tranny in my shop and it has a starter on it. But my luck auto's probably are different. Have a good evening.

[kentwat]

I'm back!! I finally got the new starter in this am. I got delayed with the wifes car and honeydoo's plus Thanksgiving...hope yours was well.

Back to the testing. Hose 24 pulls vacuum it pulls over 20 hg and then I tested for vacuum at lower EGR Solenoid and nothing. So it states bad cvc. I swapped to another i had and it has vacuum out of it but only 5 inhg and still couldn't get any vacuum at lower egr solenoid hose. In between is an air chamber I thought I had another chamber but I can't find it no where. Just for chits and grins I substitued a T connector for the chamber and the car wouldn't run unless I gave it plenty of gas. Replaced chamber back in and now it runs. I haven't went for a test drive but I'm thinking it is that chamber. Do you think honda dealer would have that part anymore? Thanks all.

Update: I just went to the grocery store to get school drinks and no pgm-fi light on the whole trip. Plenty of 75 mph overdrive cruising and no light. I need to check and see tomorrow everything I changed in box. But it looks like that little cvc was a problem. Thanks Eco and Dr. Snooz for the help. The 86-89 manual with the tests I wish I'd have found it a long time ago. I had it but I thought it'd be a hassles swapping through different pdfs. Happy camper indeed. Thanks again.

[ecogabriel]

I've been out of commission for a while -school stuff.

Glad that you solved the EGR problem.
It is normal that the EGR valve will only receive about 7-8 inhg vacuum; the dish-shaped thing inside the black box makes steady vacuum for steady vacuum operation.

As for the chamber, I got another one (together with a dish-shaped thing) when doing my EGR troubleshooting; they were so cheap that I did not bother with the few bucks.
I may even have a working solenoid too. If you need any of those I can send those to you as I remember they worked when I tried them on.

[Dr_Snooz]

That's good to hear! That reservoir you mention is just a black plastic cylinder with two vacuum lines coming out the top right? That should just be an empty container. Unless it was physically broken, cracked, etc. it should be just fine. As for the CVC (Constant Vacuum Control), I don't even know what that is. I guess that's the nice thing about the manual, you don't have to know much to keep your car running well.

Happy motoring!