Nars Accord Hatch

[markmdz89hatch]

Guestimating with springs and shocks is frustrating. I think its funny I had much more success putting Honda springs on a BMW then a Honda I am currently trying to find some sort of article examining dampening vs. spring rate in more detail.

Shocks convert mechanical energy into heat energy right? So putting too much stress on a shock probably overheats it. Ever notice how old shocks have burn-marks on the piston sometimes? When shock oil overheats it probably leaks through the piston-seal. When oil escapes the shock becomes less efficient in absorbing heat. Everytime oil escapes it also increases the piston speed and travel within the shock body which reduces its dampening effect. (The progression of shock failure probably increases exponentially once its been overheated.) Eventually the dampening valve will be completely overloaded and then its game over. The dampening valve itself will fail and the shock piston will bottom out inside the strut housing making a horrible tinging-sound.

Obviously this overheating effect can happen both in the compression stage or in the rebound stage. I dunno if pushing or pulling on a shock is worse either way... but it seems logical to think that there is an ideal dampening rate for a particular spring and varying from that is just gonna kill your shocks. Adjustable shocks were obviously made so you can achieve this harmony with a variety of different aftermarket springs but you have to wonder how those settings compare to the stock dampening rate?

For instance, is setting "1" supposed to be equal to stock dampening or is setting "4" supposed to be equal to stock dampening? I dunno why anyone would want a dampening setting weaker then stock because why would you ever put weaker springs on a car???

Even if you use stock springs and reduce the dampening below stock that isn't gonna make the springs any softer it'll just increase the rate of spring travel to the point where the springs are no longer working within the range they were designed for ruining your handling and your springs at the same time. Also it seems like using an adjustable shock to increase the resistance of the shock without increasing the spring stiffness is just gonna overheat the shock and ruin it.

The only shock I can think of that could actually change the dampening rate of a spring while also preventing overheating are those magnetic-shocks with the particles inside. The valves in those shocks actually change the flow-rate of the valve based on the strength of the magnetic field in milliseconds! Therefor you can always change resistance to piston travel without actually putting stress on the valve. Either the oil is allowed to flow quickly through the valve or it isn't. In other words, that shock can change dampening/rebound rates independently without changing the actual volume of oil inside. If you time that right you can probably prevent or at least significantly reduce overheating.

Remote-resevoir shocks probably work on another concept that says if you give the oil inside the shock-housing an option to leave the housing at a measured rate you can change the dampening rate without overstressing the valves and overheating the oil.

I have no idea how coilovers work better then manually adjustable shocks w/adjustable springs btw... That's another thing I'll have to read up on...

Oh, and I just went on another run with lower tire pressures. Much better! ...but the car is still too stiff for certain sections. I think maybe these current settings balance out with stock... meaning that the stock setting will handle better in certain sections and the current setting will handle better in others. In other words it is not an improvement overall on my home course but it should be an improvement at the track or some other form of competition on smoother/flatter tarmac.

I completely agree with what you posted with the exception of the bolded statement. While of course in most circumstances you want the shock rebound and compression valving to compliment the spring rate of the spring, IMO it's far safer to run a stiffer shock than a softer one as compared to the spring rate.

Although it's arguably true that a shock valved stiffer needs more pressure (on rebound or compression travel) to move the piston within the body, thus increased pressure = increased heat. ...but, all travel of the shock at that point will be control of the shock and not an overpowering spring taking it for a ride. An auto-x friend of mine about 5 years ago ran an '87 Hatchie with bone stock springs on Koni Reds. The Koni's are valved for a MUCH higher spring rate (rebound) than what the stock springs can deliver. As a result he just kept compounding the load (essentially preload) on the spring because as he'd load up a corner, the spring got compressed, but even once the corner load was removed, the shock would not allow the spring to rebound. Then he reloaded the corner, etc, etc, etc and in some cases, you could actually watch his fronts unload once he finished his run.

The biggest problem this invites is running into coil bind on the spring. Once that occurs if you load up and or hit a bump, all of the impact of the compression is translated directly to the chassis. Not good.

Obviously you have a huge grasp already on shock/spring (just suspension in general) dynamics, so it may not provide much help in theory, but certainly in the 3G application specifically, but there's a few Sticky'd threads at the top of the Suspension section that may be of use to you.

[scars_of_carma]

I completely agree with what you posted with the exception of the bolded statement.Also it seems like using an adjustable shock to increase the resistance of the shock without increasing the spring stiffness is just gonna overheat the shock and ruin it ...of course in most circumstances you want the shock rebound and compression valving to compliment the spring rate of the spring, IMO it's far safer to run a stiffer shock than a softer one as compared to the spring rate.

I definately agree with that from a safety standpoint but what I really want to know is how that affects the lifetime of the shock?

Although it's arguably true that a shock valved stiffer needs more pressure (on rebound or compression travel) to move the piston within the body, thus increased pressure = increased heat....but, all travel of the shock at that point will be control of the shock and not an overpowering spring taking it for a ride.

I wonder about this because if its valved stiffer the temperature should not increase despite the fact it requires more pressure to move the piston within the body. In other words, the increase in temperature of the oil within the shock is directly related to the pressure vs. the valving. Thus it will overheat the oil to put more pressure on a valve that is not callibrated for that pressure. The reason for this is basic thermodynamics. If you try and force a liquid through a hole with too much pressure it will heat up. Valves in a shock work this way as a dampener...
If the pressure on top of the valve is greater than the pressure beneath the valve it wants to move the piston downward within the shock body. The shock body is filled with oil and air. The air can be compressed the oil cannot. The shock is designed so air can escape reducing the pressure within the shock allowing the piston to move downward. This downward motion acts against the oil beneath the valve like a piston again increasing pressure. The oil beneath the valve is forced upward through the valve thereby decreasing the volume of the oil beneath the valve allowing the piston to move down at a measured rate. This is the dampening effect.
The valve is not designed to release all this pressure at once so the energy of the pressure is converted to heat. Thus if we assume that the valves can be overheated (and I assume the weak link would have to be the rubber seals) if they operate outside their design parameters they will only overheat when the shock receives too much dampening pressure.
How do you get too much dampening pressure? When the shock does the job it is not designed to do of course. Shocks are designed to measure the dampening force of the spring. Not all of it or even most of it... just part of it. That's why a shock being exposed to too much pressure will overheat.
That's why its so important to match shocks with springs.

An auto-x friend of mine about 5 years ago ran an '87 Hatchie with bone stock springs on Koni Reds. The Koni's are valved for a MUCH higher spring rate (rebound) than what the stock springs can deliver. As a result he just kept compounding the load (essentially preload) on the spring because as he'd load up a corner, the spring got compressed, but even once the corner load was removed, the shock would not allow the spring to rebound. Then he reloaded the corner, etc, etc, etc and in some cases, you could actually watch his fronts unload once he finished his run.
]The biggest problem this invites is running into coil bind on the spring. Once that occurs if you load up and or hit a bump, all of the impact of the compression is translated directly to the chassis. Not good.

How long did he run this setup? Did your friend ever find out if this was bad for his shocks are not?

Obviously you have a huge grasp already on shock/spring (just suspension in general) dynamics, so it may not provide much help in theory, but certainly in the 3G application specifically, but there's a few Sticky'd threads at the top of the Suspension section that may be of use to you.

I really am just thinking off of logic... because although I've read about all this in the past I can't recall most of it. My sense of vehicle dynamics is based on logic and senses. The only reason I know if a part is doing its job or not is if the car feels right or not. If it doesn't feel right the first thing I do is analyze what parts are involved and how those parts might be broken or simply overworked. In order to analyze a part you have to figure out how its made. The beauty with cars is even though every part is different for each car they all basically do the same thing. If you know what its supposed to do just use your imagination to reverse-engineer-it based on what your senses can tell you about it.
For instance with a shock absorber I can tell its designed to compress and rebound and is filled with air and oil and some valves. I've never taken one apart and I've never seen the actual valves but I know how a car normally feels with good shock absorbers matched with the right springs. The rest is common-sense and deduction.
Now back on topic... My car is bouncy. Adjusting tire pressure helped but it did not solve the issue. The bounce I'm feeling is the result of minute, but sharp, unchecked-rebound and compression. From this feeling it should be obvious that my springs are too stiff for my shocks. I have to change the shocks... I'll have to wait to buy aftermarket shocks so would it just be more prudent to ditch the springs?
So now I am left with 2 options. Abandon the springs or live with the springs? I am planning on taking my 86 to an autocross at the end of the month I think I should make my decision after that.
Now I took your advice and checked out the stickies in the suspension section. If I had done this in the first place all this ^ analysis and deduction would not have been necessary! :p ...observe, I've emboldened the words that jumped out at me lol

What struts should you use for your lowered car?
All lowering springs and all coilovers are stiffer. You need to install struts that are likewise stiffer. The struts need to control the stiffer spirng, get it wrong you you'll have bounce, excess brake dive during braking, you'll have less responsiveness for emergency lane changes and your car will rock the rear suspension (dip) with every gear change on a manuel equipped car.Plus they the pavement get ruff the strut will not be able to control the spring/tire and you'll lose grip, that includes hitting a bump mid corner.

What if your thinking about those cheap coilovers that are really stiff, stiffer than the Ground-Control coilover's? I'll tell ya right now, the ride will be stiff. Most struts, even the Koni's DO NOT have the stiffness to ride and drive right with those stiffer coilover, like Dropzone or Skunk2's. Get revalved Bilstein H.D.'s or revalved Koni's for those coilovers. I can't stress how important is is to do this with coilovers that stiff.

SPECIAL CAUTION TO THOSE THAT WANT TO BE LOWERED BELOW 2.25"!!!
If you go below 2.25" you should have the front Koni's strut's shortned to improve their performance and to not KILL them cause your bottoming them out repeatedly.

damn I'm already lowered over 3" I fail :p

[gp02a0083]

maybe i can give some clarification on the whole heat issue

look into thermodynamics
Pv=Nrt pressure an volume is proportional to moles x constant x temperature
we can consider the shock to be a closed system, that a piston moves , with a "constant" amount of gas/oil inside of it the work that the piston has to cover over a distance, dl, is related to the force applied when its being compressed. So work= Eternal force X distance traveled (dl)

this can be played with a it to result in work = -external pressure *we can consider this to be behind the piston* x ( final volume - initial volume)

to cut corners, a shock is hardly a adiabatic container, so outside temperatures can affect various things such as work/pressure
these can be extended to the PV=nrt formula
pressure and volume change, however the moles of oil/gas in the shock wont, only thing left is temperature to balance

from reading the post again, yes "The valve is not designed to release all this pressure at once so the energy of the pressure is converted to heat."

which is true, note that the temperature increase due to this will cause a change in the dynamics of the oil/gas also making the shock fail.

so all in all even tho the "piston/valve" in a shock has holes in it to dampen, there is still energy being put into the system as work, resulting in heat

[scars_of_carma]

maybe i can give some clarification on the whole heat issue

look into thermodynamics
Pv=Nrt pressure an volume is proportional to moles x constant x temperature
we can consider the shock to be a closed system, that a piston moves , with a "constant" amount of gas/oil inside of it the work that the piston has to cover over a distance, dl, is related to the force applied when its being compressed. So work= Eternal force X distance traveled (dl)

this can be played with a it to result in work = -external pressure *we can consider this to be behind the piston* x ( final volume - initial volume)

to cut corners, a shock is hardly a adiabatic container, so outside temperatures can affect various things such as work/pressure
these can be extended to the PV=nrt formula
pressure and volume change, however the moles of oil/gas in the shock wont, only thing left is temperature to balance

from reading the post again, yes "The valve is not designed to release all this pressure at once so the energy of the pressure is converted to heat."

which is true, note that the temperature increase due to this will cause a change in the dynamics of the oil/gas also making the shock fail.

so all in all even tho the "piston/valve" in a shock has holes in it to dampen, there is still energy being put into the system as work, resulting in heat

Thanks for the clarification... I think you're saying you agree with me but it's even more complicated then I think it is??

[markmdz89hatch]

I wonder about this because if its valved stiffer the temperature should not increase despite the fact it requires more pressure to move the piston within the body. In other words, the increase in temperature of the oil within the shock is directly related to the pressure vs. the valving. Thus it will overheat the oil to put more pressure on a valve that is not callibrated for that pressure. The reason for this is basic thermodynamics.

I never really studied thermodynamics and as such can't really go into detail about that. However, as you explained (and as Dave explained in his post just above) it's entirely plausible to think that the added (higher) valving can result in a greater heat generation. However, another factor, and I think a greater factor of failure of a shock is more directly related to having a spring which is too stiff for the shock it's paired with. More on that, and as it relates to heat in a sec....

If you try and force a liquid through a hole with too much pressure it will heat up. Valves in a shock work this way as a dampener...
If the pressure on top of the valve is greater than the pressure beneath the valve it wants to move the piston downward within the shock body... ... The oil beneath the valve is forced upward through the valve thereby decreasing the volume of the oil beneath the valve allowing the piston to move down at a measured rate. This is the dampening effect.

As I understand it, that seems pretty accurate. However (and contrary to what I thought before I saw it), a 'valve' or the 'piston' in the shock is not quite as simplistic as a simple piston like that of in an engine. That valve instead is comprised of a 'shim stack' or a stack of washers of varying thicknesses and diameters. The valving rates (compression and rebound) are manipulated by ever so slight changes to material, thickness, and count of the shims in the shim stack. Most of this works on minute holes in the shims in the stack as well as deflection of the shim itself.

When a shock fails it's not just due to the oil being broken down and the casing being fatigued, but also the shims and bushing in the 'valve' or 'piston' (essentially one in the same in this case) experiencing fatigue.

The valve is not designed to release all this pressure at once so the energy of the pressure is converted to heat. Thus if we assume that the valves can be overheated (and I assume the weak link would have to be the rubber seals) if they operate outside their design parameters they will only overheat when the shock receives too much dampening pressure.
How do you get too much dampening pressure? When the shock does the job it is not designed to do of course. Shocks are designed to measure the dampening force of the spring. Not all of it or even most of it... just part of it. That's why a shock being exposed to too much pressure will overheat.
That's why its so important to match shocks with springs.

Right. I'm not sure if I'm reading this completely right, but I'm wondering if there's not a slight misunderstanding of the primary role of the shock. While compression is a factor of the shock that you should have some concern with, it's the rebound that's the real concern. If you think of the shock/spring combination as one assembly, it's easier to understand. The spring is essentially controlling the 'compression' side of things. When you hit a bump, the spring acts first. It compresses any given amount. How much is dictated by the spring rate of that spring. Once the spring has compressed as much as it's going to on that bump, it now has a ton of stored energy that it needs to expel. If there was no shock, it would expel that energy as quickly (if not quicker) that it stored it and shoot back to it's normal, uncompressed position. That's where the shock comes in to play. The shock now has to do it's job by controlling the recoil (rebound, or expelling of it's stored energy [whatever you want to call it]). If it's valved to compliment the spring, it will provide reasonable resistance to the spring wanting to stretch it back out. Basically think of it like you holding your arm tight to your side, elbow bent, etc. Someone grabs your arm and tried to pull it from your side. You try to exert a reasonable amount of strength to keep that person from yanking your arm from it's socket. (That analogy is only when thinking about the assembly already compressed.)

How long did he run this setup? Did your friend ever find out if this was bad for his shocks are not?

Well, I met him (and as such broke into auto-x thanks to him) in response to an ad he had placed in a local paper to sell said Koni's. Needless to say I purchased them after watching him in action at the auto-x. They were only a year old and only had a single auto-x season on them. After I bought them, I bought a set of B&G springs and slapped the set together. Now I knew I was pushing it by expecting much from the Koni's when paired with the B&G's, but it was the only option at that time (the plan was to run them until they quit, then get them revalved even harder than factory). So now over 50K miles later and some seriously hard driving and an auto-x or two, the fronts are pretty upset with me.

I really am just thinking off of logic... because although I've read about all this in the past I can't recall most of it. My sense of vehicle dynamics is based on logic and senses. The only reason I know if a part is doing its job or not is if the car feels right or not. If it doesn't feel right the first thing I do is analyze what parts are involved and how those parts might be broken or simply overworked. In order to analyze a part you have to figure out how its made. The beauty with cars is even though every part is different for each car they all basically do the same thing. If you know what its supposed to do just use your imagination to reverse-engineer-it based on what your senses can tell you about it.
For instance with a shock absorber I can tell its designed to compress and rebound and is filled with air and oil and some valves. I've never taken one apart and I've never seen the actual valves but I know how a car normally feels with good shock absorbers matched with the right springs. The rest is common-sense and deduction.

Now back on topic... My car is bouncy. Adjusting tire pressure helped but it did not solve the issue. The bounce I'm feeling is the result of minute, but sharp, unchecked-rebound and compression. From this feeling it should be obvious that my springs are too stiff for my shocks. I have to change the shocks... I'll have to wait to buy aftermarket shocks so would it just be more prudent to ditch the springs?
So now I am left with 2 options. Abandon the springs or live with the springs? I am planning on taking my 86 to an autocross at the end of the month I think I should make my decision after that.
Now I took your advice and checked out the stickies in the suspension section. If I had done this in the first place all this ^ analysis and deduction would not have been necessary! :p ...observe, I've emboldened the words that jumped out at me lol


damn I'm already lowered over 3" I fail :p

You really have no idea how happy I am to read that. If you browse through the suspension section and take a peek at so sooooo many of the threads, you'll see me beating the dead horse telling people that their Tokico shocks on (insert ANY brand spring, or sleeve coil-over here) springs/coil-over's is NOT a good setup despite their saying it felt good. They had a stiff ride (courtesy of the springs) but a shit/bouncy ride because their shocks were getting absolutely overpowered.

As for what I'd do if I were you and just with the goal of getting a proper riding (but maybe a bit soft for your taste) car is to just keep the GR-2's all around (but measure the overall length of the shocks at full extension, and the shock body, and compare that to the stock 3G) and cut a few coils from the stock springs up front. Personally I'd try like hell to find the limit of that rear shock and keep the skunk's out back, but you really may end up giving that up.

A cut spring is not as bad as many say it is. If you do it right you're going to be slightly increasing the spring rate by reducing the amount of coils, and in most oem applications, you're removing the more tightly wound coils which are the softer sections of that progressive spring.

Cut slowly with a hacksaw or angle-grinder, but do it so slowly that you don't heat up the steel much at all. If you do heat it up, you're pretty much tempering the steel which will make it harder, and thus more brittle. A cracked spring blows goats. Un-good. If you want to stiffen up the rear a tiny bit more than where you are after the spring is cut, you can get the coil spacers that AutoZone (Shuks, O'Reilly's, blah, blah, blah) carries usually for the fords, and wedge them between the more tightly wound coils on the top or bottom of the spring. That'll minimize the flex allowed by the weaker coils and the more spaced apart (harder) coils will be utilized more. ...idk, I think it may be worth a shot.

Beyond those grassroots ways of trying to do it, you can just spring for one of the most recent advances in the 3G suspension offerings and get yourself a set of K-Sport or D2 full bodied coil-overs. This will get you a spring/shock set that are made for one another, and you can request ANY valving you would like when you place your order. If you did that, I'd target your ideal spring rate and get the valving to match/compliment that at it's 30% stiffness setting (ie. at #3 of 10).

[markmdz89hatch]

external reservoir shock:


traditional twin-tube:



This is WAY more information than you'll EVER need to know about shocks, but it does show detailed pics of the shim stack and every other miniscule part of everything that makes up a shock:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billav...lovers/Part_1/

[2ndGenGuy]

Good god you guys are typing maniacs.

[88Accord-DX]

That is a pretty good project from looking at the first pics. As far as suspension goes, Koni don't make struts anymore for us, so the closest thing is re-valved Bilsteins struts/shocks if you pay the price. That is what I gathered over the years of owning a 3g.


^^ few other post has a little more info than the average brain can absorb in one toke? ha ha

[Civic Accord Honda]

Good god you guys are typing maniacs.

Holy shit X2!!!

^^ few other post has a little more info than the average brain can absorb in one toke? ha ha

definity... i feel dizzy now and just sitting here with a blank face saying WAT

[gp02a0083]

mark , a lot of what i said, with the thermodynamics, to simplify for generalizations , is a frictionless system. We all know there it is imposable to have something that is frictionless, heck even Teflon and other fluorine based polymers used like PTFE, have a very low coefficient of friction. i understand from the pictures a bit better of the valve setup in a shock, i used a piston example for the sake of simplicity, but now looking at the way its designed i agree with you that the spring rate will kill a shock if it overpowers it. Still i would think being that the spring is the added applied force, that heat still will be generated regardless due to the increases force/pressure and flow of the shock oil/gas. Failure i would think would involve the breakdown of oil in that specific type of shock and fatigue of the valving material within the shock itself. still the fatigue and failure of a shock can be somewhat analogous to a normal piston,cylinder and rings meaning if the rings are show = lower compression / resistive compressed force aka blow by. i would think if this happened to a shock it would just mean that the valving and the shims are too worn and are allowing too much gas/oil to flow by at a different rate. the obvious conclusion i can come to with this is that high grade parts of a different material can/ should be used to avoid this premature wear, another is what many others here have done , get the shock re-valved. as mark mentioned cutting the stock springs a little bit shorter will increase the spring rate, mathematically this is a sound concept and should/will work, take a look at various engineering sites for spring rate calculators or even look here and read about hooke's law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke%27s_law

there is also the fluid dynamics portion of this to consider with the oil/gas in the shock. i think regardless if you have matched springs for a specific shock, it will generate heat , not much compared to a improper setup that would probably generate a lot more heat.

lol this thread is getting very technical

[scars_of_carma]

I never really studied thermodynamics and as such can't really go into detail about that.

Me neither, I just know that's a term related to liquid and heat.

When a shock fails it's not just due to the oil being broken down and the casing being fatigued, but also the shims and bushing in the 'valve' or 'piston' (essentially one in the same in this case) experiencing fatigue.

*nods* I would think in a normal shock/spring setup the friction of the piston on the bushings is the primary source of wear within a shock. There probably isn't much you can do about that besides using better bushings and/or some kinda super-low-friction coating on the piston.

Right. I'm not sure if I'm reading this completely right, but I'm wondering if there's not a slight misunderstanding of the primary role of the shock. While compression is a factor of the shock that you should have some concern with, it's the rebound that's the real concern. If you think of the shock/spring combination as one assembly, it's easier to understand.

I know that rebound-dampening is the primary function of the shock and I know that shocks work best paired properly with the right springs. What I was referring too is the hypothetical circumstance where you don't pair the right shock with the springs.

stiff shock + weak spring = decent ride quality... excessive pressure on shock results in premature failure of internal valves and overheating.
weak shock + stiff spring = horrible ride quality... insufficent valve-dampening in shock allows for too much piston speed & travel causing premature failure of valves and bushings (due to increased friction) in addition to overheating.

One more question... if you reduce the travel of the shock using shorter springs is that bad for the shock even if you pair them with springs with the proper spring-rate?

Now I knew I was pushing it by expecting much from the Koni's when paired with the B&G's, but it was the only option at that time (the plan was to run them until they quit, then get them revalved even harder than factory). So now over 50K miles later and some seriously hard driving and an auto-x or two, the fronts are pretty upset with me.

So you are saying you were willing to put in shocks too stiff for the springs because it was the cheapest and easiest option for better handling at the time? I can understand that and I would do the same in that circumstance. Afterall shocks will always go bad... the important thing is how much performance and value they provide in the first place.

If you browse through the suspension section and take a peek at so sooooo many of the threads, you'll see me beating the dead horse telling people that their Tokico shocks on (insert ANY brand spring, or sleeve coil-over here) springs/coil-over's is NOT a good setup despite their saying it felt good. They had a stiff ride (courtesy of the springs) but a shit/bouncy ride because their shocks were getting absolutely overpowered.

I know I didn't go about modifying my suspension thus far the right way. I realize other people on this forum, like yourself, have more experience modifying this particular car and it would be wise to search for your tuning advice.

My method for tuning cars is absolutely retarded. I throw whatever parts I have laying around at a car simply because I like trying to make em work. At some point during this process (usually several times actually) I realize part A won't work with part B. This leads to a headache but it teaches me a lesson or makes me try new things and when its all over I feel like I learned something.

For example... when I tried to put the spring perches on my KYB struts they wouldn't seat flush. This forced me to use the grinder on the offending metal tab and fix the issue but in the back of my mind I was calling myself an idiot for not noticing that tab earlier. (Lesson here: work on noticing things before they become a problem.)

As I mentioned these KYB struts on my car were meant for an Acura Legend. At first glance they looked compatible but when I tried to put them on the car I realized they wouldn't fit in the Honda lower forks. I was stuck I had to wait till I could get a ride and go back and get the Acura Forks chiding myself the entire time for being an idiot. (Lesson here: work on noticing things before they become a problem.)

Now about suspension theory.

Theory is good it helps you solve hypothetical questions. However a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question is only as good as your grasp of the original question. Think of a math-equation... its all about values. You put in a value and you get another value. But there is little value in a hypothetical value unless you had an accurate value to work from.

In this case the values I needed to know was the difference in spring-rate between the OEM springs vs. the Skunkworks springs; the difference in dampening-rate between the OEM shock vs. the KYB shocks; the proper dampening-rate vs. spring-rate ratio; the alignment/geometry of the stock suspension vs the lowered suspension; and lets throw in corner-weighting for good measure.

The obvious way to get those values is research. When it comes to tuning a 23 year old car it's a good bet someone else has figured all this out before. The other method is the scientific-method and testing. The best method is comparing the results of your testing to other research. The worst method is trial and error.

I personally use trial and error relying on research if I get stumped. I don't recommend my method it is not the smart way to do things. It only works for me because I'm trying to improve my working technique and my fabrication/modification skills. In other words it gives me a reason to spend more time in the garage.

As for what I'd do if I were you and just with the goal of getting a proper riding (but maybe a bit soft for your taste) car is to just keep the GR-2's all around (but measure the overall length of the shocks at full extension, and the shock body, and compare that to the stock 3G) and cut a few coils from the stock springs up front. Personally I'd try like hell to find the limit of that rear shock and keep the skunk's out back, but you really may end up giving that up.

A cut spring is not as bad as many say it is. ...idk, I think it may be worth a shot.

I completely agree it is worth a shot and will likely see better results than my current setup. I think my plan now is to modify the stock springs and try and get ahold of some softer aftermarket springs. I'll try both out both sets of springs with these shocks before I decide which one I like better.

Beyond those grassroots ways of trying to do it, you can just spring for one of the most recent advances in the 3G suspension offerings and get yourself a set of K-Sport or D2 full bodied coil-overs. This will get you a spring/shock set that are made for one another, and you can request ANY valving you would like when you place your order. If you did that, I'd target your ideal spring rate and get the valving to match/compliment that at it's 30% stiffness setting (ie. at #3 of 10).

Someday... I've always wanted to use a set of real coilovers I'd feel pampered for a change

We all know there it is imposable to have something that is frictionless

there is also the fluid dynamics portion of this to consider with the oil/gas in the shock. i think regardless if you have matched springs for a specific shock, it will generate heat , not much compared to a improper setup that would probably generate a lot more heat.

I completely agree with that logic. Heat and friction will always be a byproduct of the way we currently design shock absorbers. It would be great if someone made better seals and bushings for shocks that could be retrofitted to extend the service life of a shock.

However until there is a better alternative it seems the smart route is just choosing a brand that offers custom valving and rebuilding services for their shocks. It will save you money in the long run and also ensure the best possible performance.

[scars_of_carma]

Ok so I observed this really random electrical glitch? ...in my car yesterday. If I turn the interior Fan on the coolant-temperature gauge keeps going up almost to the point of overheating. When I turn it off the gauge gradually descends to normal op temp. To my recollection this has not happened before and i like to use my interior fan a lot. Wierd huh?

Hmm seems that wasn't a glitch it was a coincidence. My car really was getting hot probably because i don't have a thermostat in it yet.

[scars_of_carma]

Ok so I am overhauling the Honda's suspension again today. I've got nothing better to do but I am sick as fuck... oh well I'd rather be doing something in the garage to take my mind of it then sit in the house being miserable coughing and blowing my nose every 5 seconds.

Looking closer at the stock springs I see the rear springs are actually pretty damn stiff. Way stiffer then the fronts. I guess that's what you're supposed to do with FWD? On that note my goal today is to put a stiffer spring on the back then the front. (should have done that in the first place)

None of my lowering springs are nearly as soft as the stock fronts are. I thought about cutting the stock springs down a bit but I'm still too nervous to try that because whatever end I cut will not sit flat like they're supposed too. Are you supposed to use a torch or something to flatten them out afterward?

[scars_of_carma]

So I finished swapping the springs. The softies are now on the front and the stiffy's are in the back. I want to go for a test drive tonight but I am so exhausted... I didnt think I had the strength to work the jack anymore towards the end lol

I felt a significant difference in the way the car was riding just driving it down my driveway. Much smoother. Road Test tomorrow!

I made sure not to pre-load the lower strut bushings by tightening them while the car was still on jackstands. I raised the ride height that should help driveability some. (The air dam was starting to scrape after I lowered the tire pressure.)

I did some other minor things to the cars fit-and-finish while I had the chance. I think its ready for pics now.

[scars_of_carma]

Gentlemen this did the trick! Ride is firm with minimal bounce. Those stiff KYB shocks up front do a good job. Could be better with tuned shocks of course but considering how cheap this setup was I'm not complaining. It feels good at a cruising pace. I'll have to go for a real run soon to see how it handles a fast one.

It's not all good news though, I am pretty sure I have a blown headgasket I had to park in front of a water hose at a gas station to cool the car off today. When I opened the hood I could hear a hissing sound so I started to look around the engine for a leak but I couldn't find it. It sounded like it was comming from beneath the intake manifold nowhere near any coolant hoses I could see. Also, when I kept the engine running as I was adding water to the radiator oily foam would start bubbling out when the engine was hot but stopped when I turned the engine off.

Considering there are no visible coolant leaks, (not even a wet spot on the ground after letting the car sit) and I topped off the level yesterday I dunno what else it could be?

Anyway I will try and put some pics up tomorrow. This may be my shortest-lived project ever I dunno what I'll do if I have to do major repairs to the motor already. I haven't even redlined this motor yet! I'm too paranoid about snapping the timing belt after what happened to my BMW.

[markmdz89hatch]

whatever you do, please don't give up on this car just because of that head gasket issue (if that's what it is). When you get the chance, replace that thermostat and temperature sending unit (a total of about $20) and flush the coolant. If you have any mix you'll know right away. Change the oil too and see if the oil is milky or chunky. When you get on it, do you get any white smoke out the tailpipe?

So happy to hear that the suspension thing is in the works, as you're one of the few that's not afraid to guess and check, along with having the time to actually do it.

[scars_of_carma]

whatever you do, please don't give up on this car just because of that head gasket issue (if that's what it is). When you get the chance, replace that thermostat and temperature sending unit (a total of about $20) and flush the coolant. If you have any mix you'll know right away. Change the oil too and see if the oil is milky or chunky. When you get on it, do you get any white smoke out the tailpipe?

Nah no smoking. The car stays cool driving on the highway for a while it just seems to wanna overheat quickly in city-driving.

So happy to hear that the suspension thing is in the works, as you're one of the few that's not afraid to guess and check, along with having the time to actually do it.

Well I kinda talked about my methods a bit earlier but thanks. I'm just kinda frustrated because random stuff like this prevents me from enjoying the fruits of my labor. But I also feel silly blaming a 23 year old car for having "random" problems lol.

[scars_of_carma]

I can't believe its already dark out at 6pm. I didn't even get a chance to take pics before the sun went down. Oh well tomorrow then.

I just set a very quick pace on the really tight sections of my home course. This car continues to exceed my expectations. However I want more grip... I want wider wheels and tires!

FWD is weird... I really feel like I don't have a grasp of its pro's and con's yet. I can't anticipate/predict the cars behavior because it just feels so different. I dunno hard to explain.

Also, I found a pinhole leak in the radiator overflow line which might be responsible for my random overheating problem.

[scars_of_carma]

I did take pics tonight... but for some reason this digital camera won't work with my computer. fail...

In other news my power windows stopped working for a while today... and then they started working again when the PGM-FI idiot-light came on?

[markmdz89hatch]

damn man, it sounds like your car is possessed. Is your home course paved or mix or dirt/clay?

So cool to see someone with some serious experience really pushing this car to it's limits (and beyond, hehehe).

...on the suspension thing, yeah I read all the posts, but I don't disagree with your way of attacking it. Combine the love of tinkering/turning-wrenches with wanting to try out everything and see first hand if it works or not, and that's exactly what I'd be doing too. ...I just don't have any time to turn wrenches at the moment, nor disappear for a day (or two) for an event, nor enough spare change to cover the expenses, so I just sit behind the computer and research 'til my brain hurts.

[scars_of_carma]

damn man, it sounds like your car is possessed. Is your home course paved or mix or dirt/clay?

It is just your average paved backroad up to where my house is. After that it turns into a gravel gravel-stage for a few miles. I drove my FC on the gravel once for some hair-raising hang-the-rear-bumper-off-the-cliff drifting lol. However the washboarding from forest-service tractors is so bad in parts it will KILL your shocks so I didn't do it again.

So cool to see someone with some serious experience really pushing this car to it's limits (and beyond, hehehe).

Meh, I'm just a driving-enthusiast like everyone else. The only difference between me and others, if any, is that I might enjoy it more and I might have more passion for the sport.

...on the suspension thing, yeah I read all the posts, but I don't disagree with your way of attacking it. Combine the love of tinkering/turning-wrenches with wanting to try out everything and see first hand if it works or not, and that's exactly what I'd be doing too. ...I just don't have any time to turn wrenches at the moment, nor disappear for a day (or two) for an event, nor enough spare change to cover the expenses, so I just sit behind the computer and research 'til my brain hurts.

Nothing wrong with theory and research. Your body won't learn skills/techniques your brain isn't aware of lol. I sympathize with your time & money problems. I always think I am the poorest driving enthusiast there is but I'm probably not.

I haven't had a track-worthy car in a while. I take track-driving very seriously so I won't just jump in any jalopy and do it. My FC was completely worked-over for two years before it was ready. My RX3 and my 1st gen were almost there too but it didn't happen. *sigh*

Now that I'm a single-dad and I give away all my money for child-support I dunno when I can afford to prep and run my own car on the track again. That's why I moved to a house in a canyon so I could enjoy driving everyday no matter where I'm going! lol

[scars_of_carma]

[scars_of_carma]

So my roommate and I just went for a run. This was his first time riding with me in this car. He said I have a lot of torque-steerand wheelspin. I dunno if I mentally have a grasp of torque-steer entirely...

Is that just what they call it when the front end wants to steer itself more or less because of how the power is being put down? I was trying to explain how that feels in my car the other day but I gave up on it. I just don't understand FWD well enough yet to know whats normal and what isn't...

What do you guys do to help put the power down? Normally I would automatically say put an LSD in it but I think in this car (and FWD in general) that would actually cause more problems... As it is now when I get wheelspin I just keep my foot down until it grips again. It doesn't make the car unstable at all. However if it had an LSD the torque-steer problem would get worse wouldn't it?

I wouldn't want the car to jerk the steering in a corner cause the LSD locks up suddenly.

Anyways its cool that I could increase the pace a notch or two and still feel good about the car. I let it almost catch air and the springs still felt firm. My roommate says the damping is still nowhere near as good as his coilovers were... but by my standards I can live with it lol ...the damping is as good as my Supra and BMW's was at least.

In other words it seems I can drive this car as fast as my most recent RWD's and that makes me happy.

[Bones]

The stock seats actually make it worse because of their springiness. You feel like your always bouncing but it hurts lol ...a proper racing seat would be nice

For a low cost seat option, you might consider mounting up a ('88-'91) 3g prelude seat for the driver side at least. Minimal mods required, (there is a "how to .." around here someplace) and they have MUCH better side bolsters! (driver side has adjustable sides on the seat back!) I've even heard they were designed for Honda by Recaro, but I'm not sure if that's true or not. They are much better for spirited driving though!

Just sit down in one and play around with it for a few minutes and you'll see it's WAY better for this type of driving! You dont even have to be driving around to feel the difference.

[Civic Accord Honda]

car looks good bro