A/C retrofit information

[ecogabriel]

This should be added to the corresponding HOWTO on A/C conversion (excellent by the way)

First, settling the issue of whether Keihin compressors can be converted to R-134. Most people say they won't work but some reported them working.
Below there is a link to an EPA document that collects info from manufacturers regarding whether (and if so, which) A/C compressors should be replaced when performing a R-134 conversion

http://www.epa.gov/Region2/p2/comprssr.pdf

Long and boring, navigate to the Honda section and guess what? Honda recommends replacing Keihin compressors.

Second, the issue of lubricant of choice when converting to R-134. PAG or POE?
Compressor manufacturers (e.g. Sanden) and Acura recommend using PAG oils. The problem with PAG oils are two
a) highly hygroscopic (they absorb humidity/water like sponges) and dilluted oil does not lubricate
b) PAG oils react VERY badly with residues of R-12 including residuals suspended in R-12 oil. If you flush the system that would not be the problem; read the how to for specific instructions

Still, humidity is a problem UNLESS you choose one of the new-generation PAG oils: DEC (double-end capped) PAG.
They are modified PAGs that are almost impervious to humidity in A/C systems (you still need to remove it though) and far more resistant to R-12 residuals (they do not decompose as old PAG does)
A link below shows a graphic demonstration done by a technician on how DEC PAG behaves regarding water compared to regular PAG

http://www.autoacforum.com/messagevi...threadid=17571

DEC PAG does not cost more but you need to check closely to see what you are getting. The brand used in the comparison is available in different densities and can be bought online by about $10 for a bottle of 8 ounces (enough for 3G accords)

Incidentally, browse that website and somewhere you will find a document with refrigerant and oil capacities (and type of oil used) for EVERY single car on U.S. roads. Check the Honda section for specifics for our cars.

Enough said

[nswst8]

Good info, thanks.

[lostforawhile]

Honda started replacing the Keihin compressors before the generation was even over, there used to be a kit available that had the alternate compressor,bracket,belt,fittings and hoses. They were doing this because the Keihin unit was a piece of junk. They replaced so many under warranty, that back when the cars were new, the alternate compressor was often installed instead of the original. The Keihin isn't compatible with 134a, but even if it was, it would still be junk.

[nswst8]

I'd have to disagree Tim. I ran the kiehin compressor with R134a for almost twelve years. I finally replaced it only because I bought one of those Honda denso kits off ebay for $109 dollars and needed to take the car back to R12 because of the Texas heat. R134a retrofit just was not cutting it in Texas.

My system had its leak in the TXV/evap fitting and the compressor hose fittings. But I'm not the average car owner I always checked my pressure before and after summer season about every six months and if it needed freon I added it with oil. Probably increasing the life of the compressor. It was still pumping when I took it off.

I didn't know how much life it still had in it which is why I didn't take it back to R12 that and the fact I had the new Honda Denso A/C kit.

[lostforawhile]

I'd have to disagree Tim. I ran the kiehin compressor with R134a for almost twelve years. I finally replaced it only because I bought one of those Honda denso kits off ebay for $109 dollars and needed to take the car back to R12 because of the Texas heat. R134a retrofit just was not cutting it in Texas.

My system had its leak in the TXV/evap fitting and the compressor hose fittings. But I'm not the average car owner I always checked my pressure before and after summer season about every six months and if it needed freon I added it with oil. Probably increasing the life of the compressor. It was still pumping when I took it off.

I didn't know how much life it still had in it which is why I didn't take it back to R12 that and the fact I had the new Honda Denso A/C kit.

you were one of the lucky ones, a few of these compressors were good, but most were junk. I remember people bitching about them back in the eighties even. We all know the name Keihin just says quality.

[nswst8]

Yeah, that and the fact that I can work on my own A/C system.

[Importordomestic]

I use Freeze 12 in my r-12 systems. no need to change driyers clean compressors just vacuum charge and go. ive done it to 3 cars all using the keihin compressor still running to this day 1 of the cars was a 1g and it is still cold.

just didnt know if anyone else was using it.

[nswst8]

I have like 70lbs of R12 so I won't be needing anything else.

But that is what the shops in Texas were using with good results in place of R12.

[ecogabriel]

The fact that Honda itself recommends replacing Keihin compressors is telling on their ability to take on r-134; things are never black and white however as nsw's experience shows.
I am more impressed with the new PAG oils; humidity was the killer of regular PAG together with r-12 residues, but those new gen ones seem almost impervious to humidity and even to r12 residue.
I posted it because I thought it would be useful for someone trying to get his A/C back.

[nswst8]

Great info, didn't mean to highjack the thread.

[lostforawhile]

I have like 70lbs of R12 so I won't be needing anything else.

But that is what the shops in Texas were using with good results in place of R12.

if you have it in those green drums, watch the emergency vent hole, over time they start to leak and you may be left with an empty container, all the ones stored up in Atlanta have the vent epoxied over, i'm sure in an emergency the epoxy will go before the tank. the valves look almost like they are made to leak.

[nswst8]

I'll have to look at that. Thanks for the info.

[ecogabriel]

Great info, didn't mean to highjack the thread.

I never thought it that way; still the info should go with the howto on conversion to be a little more meaningful. Searching through countless thread can be frustrating.

[ecogabriel]

if you have it in those green drums, watch the emergency vent hole, over time they start to leak and you may be left with an empty container, all the ones stored up in Atlanta have the vent epoxied over, i'm sure in an emergency the epoxy will go before the tank. the valves look almost like they are made to leak.

So the R-12 tanks have built-in obsolescence devices???

[Dr_Snooz]

Great info! Thanks Gabriel!

[nswst8]

I never thought it that way; still the info should go with the howto on conversion to be a little more meaningful. Searching through countless thread can be frustrating.

I concur.

[ecogabriel]

I have like 70lbs of R12 so I won't be needing anything else.

I have a spare can of R-12 that I will keep for topping off my 3G. It cools quite good.
I'll have to fix the leak in my Civic and then probably convert it to r-134 because I do not want to pay a fortune to get it charged with R-12. It works wonderful with it though.
Or maybe get EPA 609 certification to be able to buy it legally and charge it.

[lostforawhile]

So the R-12 tanks have built-in obsolescence devices???

pretty much, back when I got my license to buy R12, my instructor explained it that way. they didn';t want people stockpiling it, so they made the containers so they would eventually leak,

[nswst8]

I have a spare can of R-12 that I will keep for topping off my 3G. It cools quite good.
I'll have to fix the leak in my Civic and then probably convert it to r-134 because I do not want to pay a fortune to get it charged with R-12. It works wonderful with it though.
Or maybe get EPA 609 certification to be able to buy it legally and charge it.

It's an easy test online for $20 http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/609/.../609certs.html or some guys are selling it on ebay if you sign a statement of only using it to charge your own system. But for the $20 dollar fee you can buy it legally anywhere.

[lostforawhile]

It's an easy test online for $20 http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title6/609/.../609certs.html or some guys are selling it on ebay if you sign a statement of only using it to charge your own system. But for the $20 dollar fee you can buy it legally anywhere.

they are changing the law,or trying to, in the future you will have to prove that you have all the recovery equipment, refrigerant scales, new gauges that require calibration, and have to be calibrated, and know how to do all the new paperwork ,before you can even get the license. basically to try and get rid of all home and small time users. the equipment cost will be so high no person will be able to afford it except shops

[ecogabriel]

they are changing the law,or trying to, in the future you will have to prove that you have all the recovery equipment, refrigerant scales, new gauges that require calibration, and have to be calibrated, and know how to do all the new paperwork ,before you can even get the license. basically to try and get rid of all home and small time users. the equipment cost will be so high no person will be able to afford it except shops

With the numbers of cars using R-12 declining steadily (except for some imports that seem to last forever) it makes no sense. When the ban was first imposed it would have been different; millions of cars would potentially be serviced and was economically feasible to do. Nowadays only car fans seem willing to spend $$$ to get their A/C back to service and some even go the r-134a route. Even r-12 recovery equipment is being sold on Ebay.

Do you know anyone in the area that may recover r-12? I need to remove it from my Civic before replacing port valves (those are positively leaking) and redo all the o-rings (probably started leaking after 16 years and 200K+ miles)?

[nswst8]

Bring it out here I can recover it. It's great side money.

[lostforawhile]

With the numbers of cars using R-12 declining steadily (except for some imports that seem to last forever) it makes no sense. When the ban was first imposed it would have been different; millions of cars would potentially be serviced and was economically feasible to do. Nowadays only car fans seem willing to spend $$$ to get their A/C back to service and some even go the r-134a route. Even r-12 recovery equipment is being sold on Ebay.

Do you know anyone in the area that may recover r-12? I need to remove it from my Civic before replacing port valves (those are positively leaking) and redo all the o-rings (probably started leaking after 16 years and 200K+ miles)?

does anything the EPA does really make any more sense? It's just like the stupid emissions in California for the small amount of old cars actually on the road, it's all about the money.

[2ndGenGuy]

I just fill my shit with propane. Works great.

[lostforawhile]

I just fill my shit with propane. Works great.

I wouldn't do that! ever see one that exploded from a leak? not a pretty sight,lots of people have died from that! AC techs have died from working on systems filled with it too. All it takes is a little leak under the hood or in the cabin and BOOM! the other thing is a lot of people run it in a mix with r12,if it burns,you're dead, that quick. Once you get a good whiff of the Phosgene gas created from it burning, it's pretty much over. I was looking up some accident statistics, and I was shocked how many people have died from R12 systems that started leaking in wrecks and the gas burned. I will never run r12 after that. Makes a good refrigerant and even better mustard gas. you'll hear people say the propane won't burn , not enough oxygen, once it leaks out of the system it's got plenty of air to mix with,. Is your ac system so leak proof that you know it will never leak again? It's a gas leak if it does,same kind of leak that levels houses.