everything is worn out

[tomatofiasco]

you know i have a big ol' swag o' problems when i post, the above is my working hypothesis, but i'd like some thoughts from those that might have prior knowledge.

first, my rear wheels have been making a great booming noise for a while now, but recently i found play in the righthand one, by wobbling it in and out and observing a clunking. the hub nuts weren't loose but i did them up a fair bit, so that the hub could be turned at the studs with some effort. now they don't clunk if i wobble them but are making the same noise, much louder, as a vibration i can feel. the wheel nuts also feel moderately warm to the touch. is it new bearing time? what is the correct torque for these nuts?

second, my exhaust is smoking a fair bit when the engine idles for any length of time, for example it will waft past me when waiting at traffic lights. when i take off again, it leaves a little cloud of blueish smoke. if i stop and immediately rev it in neutral it doesn't create a cloud of smoke that i can see, and it doesn't leave a trail otherwise. its always smelled a bit oily but this recent development appears to be worsening. it is worst when starting after having parked for a while, though it starts fine and isnt eating oil or coolant [which is clean] or apparently missing power.
is this a valve seal? can i fix it myself?

third, the dash warning cluster that tells you when your doors are open etc. is flickering the bright initial warning light randomly but often, and sometimes progressing to showing the rear left light cluster. all of the lights work fine, even when the dash says something is wrong. recently its stopped flickering, but i didn't do anything ... ideas?

[1GCustomAccord]

you know i have a big ol' swag o' problems when i post, the above is my working hypothesis, but i'd like some thoughts from those that might have prior knowledge.

first, my rear wheels have been making a great booming noise for a while now, but recently i found play in the righthand one, by wobbling it in and out and observing a clunking. the hub nuts weren't loose but i did them up a fair bit, so that the hub could be turned at the studs with some effort. now they don't clunk if i wobble them but are making the same noise, much louder, as a vibration i can feel. the wheel nuts also feel moderately warm to the touch. is it new bearing time? what is the correct torque for these nuts?

second, my exhaust is smoking a fair bit when the engine idles for any length of time, for example it will waft past me when waiting at traffic lights. when i take off again, it leaves a little cloud of blueish smoke. if i stop and immediately rev it in neutral it doesn't create a cloud of smoke that i can see, and it doesn't leave a trail otherwise. its always smelled a bit oily but this recent development appears to be worsening. it is worst when starting after having parked for a while, though it starts fine and isnt eating oil or coolant [which is clean] or apparently missing power.
is this a valve seal? can i fix it myself?

third, the dash warning cluster that tells you when your doors are open etc. is flickering the bright initial warning light randomly but often, and sometimes progressing to showing the rear left light cluster. all of the lights work fine, even when the dash says something is wrong. recently its stopped flickering, but i didn't do anything ... ideas?

The procedure to tighten that hubs is this:

1-tighten the hub nut at 25 n.m ( 2.5 kg.m or 18 lb-foot ) , and turn the brake drum by hand.
2-loosen the hub nut.
3-tighten the hub nut at 3 to 6 n.m ( 0.3 to 0.6 kg.m )
4-install the washer
5-install the split pin holder in the closest position to the pin hole
6-tighten the nut until the pin holder slot is aligned with the pin hole
7-install the split pin and twist their ends
8-install the cap
9-done, drink a beer

I think is best just to check the bearings, take them out, clean them and see if there is any sign of wearing or damage, that sound is typical of damaged bearings.

The smoke when you just start the engine is common in weared valve seals.
The smoke just on idle is more likely a mix between rings and valve seals or valve guides with too much play.
The smoke when you press the throttle but not in idle is rings almost sure.

The flickering light is sometimes caused by a bad contact in the connector of the wires going to the back of the car in the left side under the carpet, the connector ib black, dont remember its exact position, the wires are also black with symbols to identify each one of them.

Good luck!

[tomatofiasco]

thanks everso mate

i'll have to loosen the bearings off again and inspect them and replacement arrangements.

as for the smoke, yikes i hope its not a ring. its not down on power / up on blow-by though, running smoothly. its not that it chuffs smoke whenever i accelerate, but from a standstill of a certain amount of time, where it starts smoking. it definitely smokes when it first starts up, so that would be oil running down a stem[s] and getting in the cylinder. i guess i'll have to replace them all and see if that helps. i've had the valvetrain apart before, is the seal something i can just pop off / pop back on? i guess it must be under the spring and retainer though so i should try to diagnose which ones actually need doing beforehand shouldn't i? the plugs would be substantially more crusty right?

[2ndGenGuy]

If your rear wheel bearings had any play in them then they need to be replaced. Running good bearings without proper torque will wear them out. They're cheap, so I would replace them regardless.

I wouldn't worry too much about the smoke. My ES in my 2g Accord had a bit of puff of smoke like that for a long time. Like was said, those valve seals are notorious in older Hondas. It really won't hurt anything, but if you like to get rid of the smoke, I do believe those seals just pop off once you get the spring and retainer out.

And as far as the brake lamp indicator, I just read recently that a faulty / dirty brake pedal switch can also cause that thing to light up intermittently. Mine comes on just like you said, but I've checked all the wiring. I think they all do it, and I suspect that it's got a lot to do with that circuit board in the cluster.

[79cord]

I had a go replacing the valve stem seals last year, only about $40? to get but obviously you need to get valve springs & retainers off to get to them, & make sure the valves don't fall into the cylinders while you are at it.
Workshop manual suggests removing the head but you can also buy/make adapters to fit in plug holes & connect to compressor to pressurize the cylinders & hold the valves shut, and/or keep the pistons to TDC when you do each cylinder.
I made up an angle iron "bridge" to bolt to the valvetrain rocker mountings once they were removed, & a 1" square section tube with slotted holes in it near the end, to lever off that bridge & compress the valve springs to allow the the removal of the valve spring retainers retaining collets through the slotted holes (make sure you keep them covered when you do that so they don't zing off on you like one of mine did, never to be found). Removing the old seals with pliers after gently heating them with a little pen-sized gas burner I had.

I can't say it made a huge difference in my case though, the off ignition timing possibly a bigger factor for my car. If your valve guides themselves are worn the seals won't last. Guides definitely a head off job.

Having over-heated my engine once or twice in the past & now using some oil I think it might be time I swapped in the '79 engine out of the "Sad '78" I got while I think about rebuilding my '79's engine.

[tomatofiasco]

thanks 79cord, 1GCustomAccord and 2ndGenGuy and merry christmas! i best not call up repco now, begining to feel a lot like christmas. i will leave it till the new year i suppose i have taken a valve assembly apart before to replace a broken spring [took it to stage 4 with mad tyte spoonsports SPEC D parts] [just on the one cylinder] [goes hard ]


piston at TDC stops the valve going walkabout, i also deployed MAD TYTE rubber bands

i got the retainer off by leaning on it with the long handles of some pliers and then swearing so i think i can handle that, but should i replace all of the seals? theres 8 of them! i suppose they helpfully come in bulk.

do you think the valve guides are likely to be worn out? i dont know how many km the engine has actually done, but i haven't cooked it and i've kept the oil clean, and when i did the head gasket the bores were still nicely honed.

the bearings are tapered in the rear and come apart when you remove the nut, so new bearings are just the caged balls? is there any pressing-out to be done of the tapered parts etc?

thanks again and happy holidays!

[2ndGenGuy]

On those rear bearings, when you buy them, they should come with new tapered races. You can tap the old ones out from the backside with a flathead screwdriver. Getting them in is a bit tougher, as you can't score those surfaces. I have a bearing driver kit that works nicely, and I don't think they're too much. Just fit right in the race, and hammer them in. Really you can use anything round that will fit (even use the old race to drive in the new one, but don't get it stuck, and make sure it goes in nice and straight to not bend it).

[tomatofiasco]

noted! im sure it will be clearer when i take it all apart

in the meantime heres a nice picture of my hatch with my brothers new pug 306 S16 at a recent race day



maybe after i fix these few issues we'll stop spectating and get out there and really break some stuff!

hel yer.

[2ndGenGuy]

Love your car man! You definitely need to get it out there!

[Sh4d0w]

<3 nice lookin car - reminds me of my old 79...

[tomatofiasco]

thanks guys i think the pug is likely to flog it but its a double dare now :P

besides the noisy nissans are over-represented here.

repco have the bearings and i can probably get the rear bearing seals locally too, but repco only "do" the EG 8 valve engine valve seals, and dont have them on the computer for the EL engine. they aren't the same, are they? the EL has thinner valve stems perhaps? does anyone have a part number?

[79cord]

Computer says no..... Had the same problem from them with clutch master cyl. seals.

Actually not sure if EG & EL seals are the same or not...
Check US CVCC EF & EK online?

My Honda Prelude EL partbook gives
'79-'81
intake "seal A" # 12210-689-003
'82
intake "seal A" # 12210-PC1-003

'79 exhaust "seal B" # 12211-689-003
'80-'82 exhaust "seal B" # 12211-689-013

I found the reciept for mine from Burson auto parts at the start of the year:
$42.75 Permaseal valve stem seal set # VSS021 ... & don't remember any intake/exhaust variance... & hard to comment if they were good of not.

I think there were also a few different rear main seals too according to year/engine no.

306 s16 was torquey 2l 6spd "sports" model wasn't it so should go well, though a workmate had one that destroyed its timing belt & valves under warranty...

[tomatofiasco]

beautiful gorgeous german bearings have been installed! silence is total from the rear hubs at least. whereas before they'd drown out the engine. it was extra joyous after driving the TP magna, its just so malaise-y. the stereo i installed when i was 18 is rather nice though... maybe i should put the stock one back in before someone buys it for $65

i love shiny stuff so i couldn't help taking pictures -

heres the old and the new:







pew pew laser burn

i went for a walk as i have a bursons nearby. turns out its 33 degrees, who knew? much too hot, bursons did have a whacking great pedestal fan aimed at the counter though, and the nice man said he had the valve guides you described, though not in stock. i decided not to order them right now anyway.

about my brothers car... its not all that torquey, maybe a bit more than average. the GTi-6 is the six-speed final performance evolution stage 4 touge battlU model, very similar but with some small chassis reinforcing, different gearbox and a slightly more powerful, less "cammy" engine. the S16 definitely starts to sing above 4000rpm, similar to the Mi16 i am told but with a lower redline. half the engine bay is a 2-stage intake scroll to make it behave around town. it sounds really good too but mostly it loves going around corners and is pretty much unstoppable on a windy road, which there are lots of here!

also while the GTi-6 costs as much as a WRX to insure, the S16 goes in the granny price bracket! WIN!

also you can buy one for half as much as a type r of the same age. more comfortable, better interior, would recommend.

[Rendon LX-i]

JESUS where those bearings worn out or what. Nice 1g man. AN BTW what a bad ass cam you got

[1GCustomAccord]

Wow! Nice pictures, did you use an electronic microscope??

[Hazwan]

Haha that old bearings are really bad. And that pics! OMG what camera do you have.

[2ndGenGuy]

Holy pitted bearings batman! When I had my EL head rebuilt, I had it done with all parts from the equivalent EK year. And the engine is still running in my friend's car, been going strong for over a year now, so I'd say they're good.

[tomatofiasco]

cool, so EK seals fit EL valve stems, at least for the 8 main valves? will keep in mind, maybe i can order them instead

glad you like the pictures guys! the camera is a Ricoh Caplio GX100, which has a 24-70mm zoom lens and is pocket-sized. its excellent for macro right up to 1cm from the lens surface, but it can be trial and error to focus. the lens is amazing in that it hardly distorts and is ultra-sharp even wide-open at the widest angle, thus the processor doesn't do much stretching and smearing. even chromatic aberration [blue and magenta fringing] is very low. gotta keep it out of dusty gritty pockets though!

[tomatofiasco]

i have an update-bump!:

i think i really need a new distributor. with the rotor and points and cap. it needs to be the mechanical early version, does anyone have a spare in good condition?

i keep tweaking the points contact prong back and it keeps wearing at the follower and then the car starts misfiring, and theres a fair bit of red-brown dust inside.

i am about to get the valve guide seals too, and i think i'll need new tyres soon, any recommendations in 175x70 R13?

[Tomisimo]

cool, so EK seals fit EL valve stems, at least for the 8 main valves? will keep in mind, maybe i can order them instead

glad you like the pictures guys! the camera is a Ricoh Caplio GX100, which has a 24-70mm zoom lens and is pocket-sized. its excellent for macro right up to 1cm from the lens surface, but it can be trial and error to focus. the lens is amazing in that it hardly distorts and is ultra-sharp even wide-open at the widest angle, thus the processor doesn't do much stretching and smearing. even chromatic aberration [blue and magenta fringing] is very low. gotta keep it out of dusty gritty pockets though!

I need to get me one of those ^^

[2ndGenGuy]

Can you convert to electronic ignition? Or would your tach not work anymore? What about swapping the tach from a newer vehicle? I think the later distributors will drop right in wont they?

[79cord]

There was a '78 5-speed at the local wreckers I could check out for you, they might only want $30?
Or we could figure out the wiring/components needed to swap in to get the later post '78 electronic ignition distributors working in these earlier models... If the Civic guys haven't already?

Oh & I noticed the tape on your bonnet trim, my trim retaining bolts rusted solid & broke when I tried to remove them so I cut strips of 2x16x30mm(?) soft plastic to slide inside the trim & used short self tapping screws into that to retain it.

[1GCustomAccord]

Can you convert to electronic ignition? Or would your tach not work anymore? What about swapping the tach from a newer vehicle? I think the later distributors will drop right in wont they?

To convert to electronic ignition just purchase the distributor, and ignition module, the wiring should be a easy task.

Complete system:


The ignition connector wires from left to right:

UP: White/blue- White- White- Black/white
DOWN: Black/white- NONE- White/red- Black/yellow



The wiring diagram:


The transistorized connector, left to right:

UP (Pulse generator side): Blue- Red
MIDDLE: Black- NONE
DOWN (Ignition coil side): Blue- Black/yellow



The transistorized ignition module internal diagram (Very simple! )



Well, thats all.

Like Confucius said, "Having points ignition is pointless"

PS: Sorry for the crappy pictures, my phone just sucks.

[2ndGenGuy]

I think the tach and possibly the fuel pump relay may not work if they are from a points-based ignition though. Maybe different pulse signals from the negative on the coil, I'm not certain...

[tomatofiasco]

wow, thanks for replies guys. 79cord, that is a great idea for stopping my trim falling off, i will investigate doing something like that. i have most of the little studs but the nuts have fallen off. and some studs are missing, and a couple might be too rusty.

as for the wiring diagrams and tranzistorized boxes and dashboard jiggerypokery, thankyou 1GCustomAccord very much for providing them. i think i investigated, in a crude way, whether i could use my '81 induction-and-module non-contact distributor, and came up with the same answer: the dizzy drops in but the conversion involves lots of electrical wire tracing and soldering hell.

not ruling it out, but since both distributors, fancy and classic flavours are full of red dust and wobble at the shaft, it would depend which is cheaper and more straightforward overall, which can be hard to judge!

in favour of the electronic, i think i have the pulse generator and access to the loom it came from, and it would be adjustment-free and the distributor would likely last longer.
as much as i'd like my life to be more pointless however, the current design has given pretty much trouble free operation and works without soldering.

or taking the dash apart, i made a blood oath never to do that again after the heater debacle. :O

79cord, if you could have a look at that '78 car at your convenience, see how worn the dizzy is, if the shaft has much play and how much they'd want for it, that'd be GRAND. there is nothing identifiable, much less useful, at the junkyards here, honda or otherwise.

I'll go through those diagrams with MSPAINT and see if i can figure out what actually needs to be done. where might i get a good condition dizzy, and possibly a pulse box if mine's rooted? i'll call repco this morning but am preparing to be horrified by the price :O